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WARNING! - Monk = No, not in Morrowind

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JemyM
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WARNING! - Monk = No, not in Morrowind

Post by JemyM »

"If the enemy cannot hit you, they cannot hurt you"
"You dont need strength if you hit enemy where it hurts"
"I am Kain, I will help you"

Starting to play Morrowind I tought to myself "Here's a game filled with new stuff, new armor, weapons... And I have no clue whats best of Light/Medium/Heavy armor/weaponry in this new system"...
With that tought I decided that the only class that couldnt fail was a character that from the beginning started to focus in two skills - Hand To Hand and Unarmored... He could only be better in thoose two, and didnt need to bother about something else.

Now, in D&D style games, that idea would had worked, but sadly not in Morrowind.
There are no critical strikes in Morrowind, so you cannot walk up to an opponent, hit them where it hurts, and walk away. You need maximum amount of force to blow away the monster from the face of the earth, wich requires making as much damage as possible and survive incoming blows...

I have reached 100 in Hand To Hand combat... I cannot advance more. I cant kill in one blow, its still smacking the opponent 10-100 times in the forehead before he drops down, and then I have to strike him when he lies down to kill him.

With that reiciphy, I think I would be better off as a barbarian with a 2h axe in this game. =(

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Post by wildvixen »

a monk carrys a staff and wears a small amount of clothing.


ever watch beast master the movie back in the 80's?


there was two monks in it they did not use there fists they used wooden staffs


i dont know if you played advanced dungeons and dragons but in AD&D you can do the monk thing, but he is not equipped with just fists and no armour.

you can have a monk in morrowind im shure, because some other guy at http://morrowind.ttlg.com/ had created a monk class.

a monk uses aiding spells a little bit of healing, and protecting spells. At least they do in AD&D.


the monk also has alot of dexterity, and wisdom. He can take blows without wearing much armour, but still wearing at least leather or studded leather. They are somewhat like druids, but a little differnt. They use skills that are aquired naturally, but they still use weapons to aid them in battle.


i would think just using your fists would be a less damaging effect to enemys. You should not be able to get them in one punch that would be absurred and unrealistic. I will find some stats on a monk class char for you and show you what i mean.
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Post by Zantax »

Well luckily the game shipped with a mod engine. If you muck around in that you should be able to come up with ways to make a monk. I'm sure someone somewhere is already designing one.
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Post by JemyM »

wildvixen
---------
I have the game, and I play Class:Monk, so yes, you can choose to play 'monk' in Morrowind, but without 'criticals' a monk really doesnt have too much to offer.

Yes, I have experience with Dungeons & Dragons. Not 2nd edition, but 3rd. And Baldurs Gate ofcourse.

I practice Aikido personally, and practiced some other Martial Arts. Aikido is a friendly style, but it does contain weapontraining with both a staff and a wooden sword. Jabbing the hand against a opponent wont do much damage, and bashing someone with a stick wont do much either, but as soon as you focus on vital areas, it start to hurt. A normal Staff or Wooden Sword can kill, so can normal hands, if you know how and are practiced in doing it.

The fantasy style Monk takes after this, so in most Fantasy implementions of Monk you do much more damage with your fists becouse of the ability to do more criticals that normally hurts bigtime compared to normal attacks.

This, unfortunate, isnt tought of in Morrowind. I can become supreme in Hand-To-Hand figthing (and I already are), but still that wont help me much becouse I really cant do much damage with my bare hands. My only advantage is speed, I can hit the opponent 5-10 times before he have the chance to hit me. A Staff does nothing more than the traditional (weak) damage, even if Im a master of using it.

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Post by wildvixen »

hmmm ok i see what you mean, but why would you want to punch a guy in one hit and have him die?... lmao that sounds like mortal kombat. :D


like i mean even if you were a ninja you should be using a katana or somthing. not just your fists... think of it this way if you were fighting an imperial knight and he had plate mail on... do you think you should be able to damage him much?

no because he has armour on


think if you were your charecter would you be able to go out and punch out people and get a good damage rating just becuase you knew karate...no you shouldnt be able to take on people with just your fists especially in a rollplaying game.


howveer if you had some type of weapon for your hands like leather groves that have spikes, or claws on them and you do alot of damage shure that would be understandable, but not just pure fists from your own flesh
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Post by JemyM »

Monks have given up their need for posessions. Thats why they do not own things like weaponry and armor.

The good part with only hand-to-hand combat is to walk up to someone that believes "unarmed = no threat", say hello, and wham, driving a palm stright up towards his nose, causing his eyes to tear, allowing several other attacks while the opponent is blinded. Or why not driving the fingers stright into his throat, the vulnerable spot between the breatplate and his helmet? Or focus on his eyes? A kick towards his neck or a nice throw may also cause deadly injuries to his neck/spine, more powerful than any mace could deliver. A stright kick towards his chest, powerful as a ogre's club, may cause him to at least fall to the ground, yet loose control over his breath and cause internal injuries. His clumsiness/slowness are disadvantage of carrying heavy armor, wich makes him a easy target rather than a protected opponent. Thats some ways to defeat a fully plated opponent, and with a full helmet they cannot see much around them.
To walk in somewhere, totally unarmed, yet have the ability to kill, thats the power of hand-to-hand combat.

To do this, requires years and years of hard training. Knowing vulnerable spots, and how to affect them.

A human is generally no threat for someone quick as a cobra, agile as a cat, and deadly as a tiger. A larger monster is more difficult thou. Since a Monk is not allowed to own posessions for his own need, he are not supposed to use throwing weaponry.

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Post by wildvixen »

if you punch a guy with a full helmet you would break your own bones in your hands all he would do to you would swing his long sword and baM your dead...


heremaybe this is what your looking for read the FAQ Sheet here i got from a morrowind site. I also provided a link at the bottom if you want to see it for yourself.






14.4 How will weapons and stats affect combat?
Certain weapons will be useful in different ways. For example, an axe is a great weapon to chop with, but you won't do much damage with an axe thrust. On the other hand, a dagger is great for quick thrusting. Weapons will have damage ratings for each attack style, as well as speed ratings, which govern how quickly you can attack. Weapons will also differ in how long it takes to pull them back for stronger attacks. Your character's stats determine if you hit, how hard you hit, as well as how tired you get.
(Reference: RPGVault Interview)
(back to top)

14.5 Will the player be able to execute "combos" or combinations of moves for more effective combat?
No, in an effort to keep things simple, there will be no combo moves.
(Reference: Official Forums)
(back to top)

14.6 Will there be a block button or ability?
Yes, blocking will be completely automatic, based on your combat skill. There will be accompanying animations to make the block seem more realistic.
(Reference: Official Forums)
(back to top)

14.7 Will damage be location-based? For instance, will head shots hurt more?
No, there will not be location based damage.
(Reference: Official Forums)
(back to top)

14.8 How many weapons will be in the game?
There will be over 200 weapons in the game, more than likely running the gamut from standard fantasy swords and axes to more exotic Vvardenfell fare.
(Reference: Official Forums)






http://morrowind.ttlg.com/mwfaq.shtml
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Post by Tackon D'wall »

I tried to make a hand to hand character real fast and get into a fight in the house in town and I think hand to hand fighting is VERY hard to get victories in a fight with. The way they have it setup kindof makes sence but u're sitting there punching a person like crazy waiting for his fatigue to run all the way out before you can even do a single point against his health.

This method seems VERY harsh. I don't know why they didn't implement blows that caused bleed damage that went on for a few rounds and actually went against their health and not fatigue. I mean it's true that usually once a person has been knocked down they're pretty much done for but does the AI in the game go into effect in this game letting them get back up and real fast before getting knocked down again drink a potions giving them fatigue back or eating plants?

Cause if that can happen then hand to hand fighters are pretty useless. It seems like they're pretty tough anyways but having this happen would put them over the top.
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Post by JemyM »

wildvixen
---------
A normal person would most likely get his knuckles broken, and will probably get his head chopped by a normally trained guard. A Martial Artist that spent 3-4 years of training is another case. If the guard is fully plated (a full helm), the alternative is to use your palm instead of your closed fist. A guard is not a brickwall, he is a standing person, dressed in plates, wich means that he can be easily pushed over. Waving a heavy 2h blade requires lots and lots of strength, and even with that, the guard cannot possible hit someone that are un-hindred with heavy armor and trained to dodge/block/avoid incoming blows. His limited sight is a great disadvantage.

Yep, I have read the FAQ.
The implemention of hand-to-hand combat is good thinking, you can knock an opponent unconcious and then take his posessions. Then you can continue to hit him until he is dead, or go away instead of doing murder.

Hand-To-Hand is monks primary and prefered weapon in Morrowind. That must mean that they are meant to do exactly what I do right now, defeating opponents with fists.
And I can knock out an opponent, even tougher opponents like thoose flameguys, or Deadra Lords, but it takes almost several minutes to punch them to the death after knocking them down, and if they have a long-range weapon (like spear), I am usually dead before I can knock them out... and some opponents are not meant to knock unconcious thou, animals, monsters, birds... Thoose are things you want to kill, and then you wish to use full deadly force. The only thing that would help there is a Hand-To-Hand WEAPON, but I havnt found any so far...

Tackon D'wall
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Train real-time avoidance... You, as a player, need to learn what your character cannot - avoid blows. By running around, back and forth, jumping, dodging, you can defeat most opponents. The difficult part is spears/long ranged weaponry. They really need a great amount of unarmored, block, and avoidance skill to get unharmed from.
An alternative I have found, is that once you knocked down an opponent, quickly switch to a blunt weapon and beat them with that instead (to kill).
The WORST part is that the mousewheel doesnt include Hand-To-Hand, you have to manually select it via "0"...
I REALLY hope I find Hand-To-Hand WEAPONS...

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Post by Tackon D'wall »

Hand to hand weapons? Are you talking like claws, brass knuckles etc? Can you hit things that need a magic weapon to hit? I know my ghost that I got at 1st level takes a magic weapon to hit. What I have done to train myself to 2nd level real fast before I went to another town is summoning my pet and beating him with my silver shortsword and casting spark at it. Then when my silver ss gets really damaged then I bonk on it forever to fix it. Armorcrafting is a HARD skill to raise. I have it as a minor with like 15 points and off of a 20 use hammer I'm totally lucky it I get 3 repairs outta it (around 150 or so) Silver seems to degrade VERY fast.

Sorry, gotta say this one little thing totally off any topics:
When I got to the 2nd town I found a house with a fighter lady upstairs in a room by herself and closed the door behind me, summoned my pet, casted bound dagger, and went to town on her. Immediately, the other 4 people that were downstairs rushed up but couldn't get the door open cause my pet was in the way. After I killed the tough lady I opened the door and killed the other 4 with ease. Off of the whole fight I only had to heal myself once. After all the bloodshed I looked and the bounty on me was 4004 or something like that. I got nervous so I went ahead and went to my last save.

I heard you can pay certain guildmasters to wipe u're record clean but would that mean in my case I'd have to pay 4004 or more to have the record cleaned?

If I won't have to pay that much PLEASE tell me and I'll go kill all of them again. I could use the shortshort that the lady had that paralyzes when it hits and has like 500 or so charges. It's green also and looks COOL :D
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Post by wildvixen »

When I got to the 2nd town I found a house with a fighter lady upstairs in a room by herself and closed the door behind me, summoned my pet, casted bound dagger, and went to town on her. Immediately, the other 4 people that were downstairs rushed up but couldn't get the door open cause my pet was in the way. After I killed the tough lady I opened the door and killed the other 4 with ease. Off of the whole fight I only had to heal myself once. After all the bloodshed I looked and the bounty on me was 4004 or something like that. I got nervous so I went ahead and went to my last save.




lmao rofl ...thats cool... the poor little sods couldnt open the door, because of your summond creature got in the way ...hahaha


what I'de actually like to try would be to put a chair by the door so the door couldnt open after that and slay some poor merchant and take all his stuff... meanwhile two gaurds are bashing on the door while im laughing my gut out because they can't get through LOLOLOL


... ide be like bring it lol :)


and jermey i hope youll be able to find a ahnd to hand combat weapon like claws or knuckles of some kind cuz that would kinda suck :(
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Post by JemyM »

Yep, Brass Knuckles, Spiked Gloves etc... Anything that uses Hand-To-Hand skill...

Thats the best thing I could find right now...

If it exist =(


To answer your question about ghosts, yes, Monks can defeat Ghosts hand-to-hand, at least I have done it several times, fairly easy with 100 in HtH


Thoose people you killed... Did you use your sword, or HtH combat?

wildvixen
-----------
Thanks mate, I hope I fix it too. Otherwise I have to go by the no-fighting approach.


Talking of scenarios... A paralyze dagger is your best friend at early levels. My friend managed to lure in a humongously tough opponent into the water and paralyzed him, the result was that he drowned him! As a Level 2 character he reicived a mail worth 150.000!!!!
Still no-one that can afford it.

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Post by wildvixen »

hey np jermy :) i liked your posts they were very interesting. I never actually thought about an unarmed charecter though the game. I would definitly agree with you though on that... you should keep increasing in skill with unarmed combat and such, but then later on maybe the battles get very hard then switching over to a weapon for your hands like claws or somthing... but they dont even havem that really kinda bites :(

i mean whats the point of having unarmed there if it dosnt go up anymore but at a certain level then stops?

i liked some of your posts about the monk class and how they unravel there worldly possensions. I went to an a&d site and it go into that ... which i never knew anything about that with monks! lol :D

oh well the more i read the more i know and the smarter i become (hopfully) lol ;)

i was wrong about that monk thing i thought they always caryyed some type of weapon but this just isnt the case becuase of how they handle themself and what they belive.. it was an interesting experiance indeed thank you for opening my eyes freind :)
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Post by Tackon D'wall »

I used the paralyzing sword that I looted off the first high level woman I killed then with the other 4 I would make sure I took out the mage first cause my experience with mages has not been good (when they get through my 50% magic resist they hit pretty hard). Hand to hand I wouldn't have stood a chance, fights take to long hand to hand to fight more than 1 person is what I've noticed. It was quite funny trying to get to the thieves guild when you have a 4040 bounty on u're head though. I got stopped by guards twice and resisted arrest, paralyzed them, then just kept running away till I got to the thieves guild :D
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Post by wildvixen »

LOL you little villin!!!
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Post by CtrlAltDel »

critical strikes are in the game
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Post by Tackon D'wall »

Yea, I learned that the hard way when a guy crit hit me more than once in the dungeon area by Seyda. A little past the guy that drops outta the sky. I would have thanked him for the perfect fitting robe but the wuss couldn't take the fall ;) :D
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Post by JemyM »

wildvixen
---------
The reason I started to play Monk was that I tought "Morrowind is a huge new RPG in wich probably many weapons/magic downt work as they do in other RPG's. The only way to be sure is to focus on HtH/Unarmored combat, since it cannot fail. I always get better, and I dont need to bother about learning the equipmentsystem early". Unfortunally, that thought didnt included the fact that Critical Strikes was missing. If found that out after reaching 100 in HtH :)

And yep, the Monk is a rather unique class indeed =o) It is the first time I play one myself, but I am always 'roleplaying' when playing theese kind of games. Ofcourse I can just go in and buy a magical sword and start practiciing in it, but then I wouldnt play my character =)


CtrlAltDel¨
----------
Backstab yes, but not directly Critical.

You must be hidden when you do "Critical Strikes", wich is the same as backstab in normal RPGs. Im 100 in HtH now, and I have never seen "Critical Strike" pop up, unless I am hidden and strike people in their backs.

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Post by THE JAKER »

Maybe get a staff, or learn a "bound staff" spell - a cool monk that summons a wicked magical staff and whips you with it sounds kind of cool. Or some of the spells that do magical damage on touch - it could be like some kind of "Fist of Lightning" deal. After all, magicka is spiritual energy so a monk might use it.... I basically agree with you about the implementation of Hand to Hand though, they should of built in some special powers at higher levels of skill. In any case you just have to work with what the game gives you I guess.

BTW Jemy you got high level unarmored, right? What kindof armor rating do you have at high levels of Unarmored?
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Post by Tackon D'wall »

The guy that critical hit me twice didn't backstab me. I saw him a mile away and fireballed him twice before he reached me and crit hit me. Of course that was an enemy and characters may be different but I don't think that would be the case.
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