Ooooh, my new char!

Khar'Mash · Post by **Khar'Mash** » Mon May 06, 2002 1:10 pm

I figured I'd make some dual classed char and try to solo the game with him, and I came up with a Kensai / Thief dual-class char. And it suddenly occured to me how absolutely insanely overpowered he is going to be with UAI, which will override his "no armor, no bracers" Kensai-restriction. I'm planning on grandmastering quarter staff (staff of the ram is probably the most damaging weapon in the game), short bow and two handed weapon style, and then dualing into a thief at level 25.

I really like the idea of using Ki, along with the ability thieves get where all their attacks in the next round counts as backstabs

My only problem is that he can't be a Kensai / Assassin, which would've given me x7 damage instead of x5 on backstabs

Anyways, what do you all think of him, think it'll work?

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Mon May 06, 2002 3:28 pm

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Tue May 07, 2002 12:05 am

Please, please, I BEG you, don't give an armor to the kensai!!!
Oh my .........

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Tue May 07, 2002 12:23 am

you got sk???

take elven, must be elven thief fighter multi change kit from true class to kensai, then reload...bwahahwahwhahwhw!!!!

now, for pure fun, take anotehr save, create pure class assassin, tehn look in affects, the exact string modifier escapes me, but hsould be possible to spot, just copy and paste a certain line, and you can backstab for as many times modifier as strikes your fancey...

so you can have x32 damage....

never bother with g whirlwind, just backstab dragons with butter knife of balduran...

reminds me, been meaning to clua that in, too look at stats..give to jan and see if he can backstab with...

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Tue May 07, 2002 2:16 am

Well you wont be able to put profiency slots in any bow. True staff of the ram is the most damaging weapon but you gotta to love assassinate and 10 attacks per round... dual wielding is good imo... especially since multi thieves can pick assassinate many times whereas duals can't..(bug?).
Anyway the kensai/thief is very powerful!!!

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Tue May 07, 2002 2:22 am

Originally posted by Littiz
Please, please, I BEG you, don't give an armor to the kensai!!!
Oh my .........

What do you have against that?
You said the same in another thread.
I know it's kinda cheesy using the UAI ability, but that just makes the kensai thief good.
By kensai/thief is curently wielding a holy avenger

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Tue May 07, 2002 3:45 am

Gosh, as if the game wasnt easy enough....

=/[

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Tue May 07, 2002 6:25 am

Just set the difficulty higher, and don't take full teams.
It's just fun to experiment

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Tue May 07, 2002 7:23 am

What do you have against that?

Oh, ok, everyone has the right to abuse of his game!!

From a roleplaying PoV, though, it makes no sense.
A kensai trains himself in unarmored fight.
Thanx to that, he gains his fighting bonuses...
What has this to do with thieving abilities?!?!?

The UAI should be something like this (IMHO

):
A thief is smart, discoveres many things, and becomes
able to use items that require a certain knowledge,
such as scrolls and potions, or some kind of robes
that normally he couldn't wear.

For the rest....

An example?
I have a priest of Lathander, with 8 ST.
Cannot use maces 'cause they WEIGH too much.
Now I'm dualled to thief.
When I reach UAI, I have to guess that I'll become
STRONGER TOO?!?!?

Come on, the UAI ability is badly implemented.
At least, for the "armored" kensai/thief, you should
remove the kensai/bonuses, as he has another fighting
style. Just my opinion.

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Tue May 07, 2002 8:45 am

I guess you have a point, in rollplaying it makes no sence that he should become able to wear armour.

Can he still wield the holy avenger through?

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Tue May 07, 2002 8:55 am

I dont think UAI overrides ability requirements. There is always strength belts and potions for that though.
The way it should be implemented with the kensai is that a kensai should be able to wear armour but then lose his combat bonuses(speed, damage and thac0). Kinda like a ranger or thief lose their skills when wearing armour heavier than studded leather.

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Tue May 07, 2002 10:29 am

Yes I agree, but UAI is obviously broken implmentation. What they should do is make UAI apply SOLELY to the thief class. For example, if you are a Kensai/Thief, you still have to abide by all Kensai restrictions, you are now just able to ignore Thief restrictions. Thats the obvious "theory" behind UAI.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Tue May 07, 2002 2:32 pm

Tested.
UAI overrides EVEN abilities requirements.

Brutal programming I think. Every check is by-passed.

So, for the game engine, it's like you become some sort of an all-class character, with something like 18 in all stats...

Really a stupid thing, I get UAI, and suddenly my PC becomes strong enough to raise that mace...
or a shield with high ST requirements...

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Tue May 07, 2002 4:00 pm

The cheese is immense, The point of UAI I always thought was to allow thiefs to use things like Scrolls, Wands, drink any potion, that sort of thing. I doubt they intended for you to break weapon restrictions, armor restrictions, ability restrictions for multi/dualed classes.

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Tue May 07, 2002 11:19 pm

They pretty much had to mean to have it works as it does. I doubt the BG team is so stupid as to have no clue how UAI works. Many of the HLAs are very very powerful. When it comes to the hard fights in ToB the enemies have the same insanely low THAC0 that you have so even if you throw some snazzy plate on your kensai thief he will be far from unhittable. Most HLAs are way too powerful vs any SoA monsters so thats nothing special here either. The more powerful thing IMO would be that you'd be wearing the gauntles of extraordinary specialization, making assassination that much better.

UAI certainly is goofy from a roleplay perspective, but if they meant to have it just enable potions and scrolls or something, then they could have easily done that. If you avoid using UAI to do certain things from a roleplay perspective then I respect that 100 percent, but to avoid it because that would be overpowering is ignoring how overpowered it already is.

The fundamental munchkin value from kensai/thief comes from the fact that kensai bonus counts before backstab multiplier (unlike str bonus for example) and that kai works with backstab. Throw in the ripe cheddar of fighter attack rate with HLA assassination and you've got a whole platter of cheese without worrying about whether the kensai wears armor or not. Dual at 13, wield belm and celestial fury get an imp haste and then with kai and assassination you're talking 825 damage per round (not counting STR bonuses or electrical damage and ignoring criticals and misses).

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed May 08, 2002 4:18 am

I do not agree, Glod.
Speaking about power, you're right, this is not that great difference in ToB.

But it really makes no sense. I'm not strong enough to wield a mace, and with UAI I become suddenly able to wield it...
No sense.

I'm sure they thought all of this was not worth the time for a more
complex coding, so did it the easy way (removing every check, I assume)

Pogoman · Post by **Pogoman** » Wed May 08, 2002 1:49 pm

Kensai using good armor

Originally posted by Stilgar

What do you have against that?
You said the same in another thread.
I know it's kinda cheesy using the UAI ability, but that just makes the kensai thief good.
By kensai/thief is curently wielding a holy avenger

There isn't anything wrong with using an ability that is already in the game. I could see if you cheated and then was able to use the armor, but if you are using the use any items ability that one gets with the game, then it's all good.

At least that's what I think.....

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Wed May 08, 2002 1:56 pm

Well I UAI works fairly fine (minus the ability requirements deal) if you are just a thief. Afterall if you put on plate, your thief abilities still disappear. And it works for Thief/Mages, armor still disables spells. Its pretty much just things like Kensais, Wizard Slayers (no magical items), etc Which I can see designers rushing out an expansion missing.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed May 08, 2002 4:46 pm

Hey, they're humans, they make errors.
They have time pressures, they may be lazy....
It's a program code, not a bible.

One can enjoy the thing as it is, or do as I do, trying to make out some sense of my own, so I avoid some of the "actual" possibilities granted by the code.

For the same reason I install those mods that improve the AI where possible.

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Sat May 11, 2002 9:37 pm

UAI is just nonsense from a roleplay perspective even for a single class. The thief can suddently wield carsomyr or the staff of the magi and wear blessed bracers just cause he's had lots of experience as a thief? He can scribe scrolls for himself (which even high level mages can't do)? None of that makes any sense.

I think when they were designing this stuff they just decided "we want to give some cool wildly powerful HLAs so that people will really want the expansion for the gee whiz factor, game balance and roleplay (i.e. the abilities making sense in game context) are secondary". That certainly seems to be overall theme to the HLAs. A F/M/C could have Gr deathblow while he is still a level 12 (or at most 13) fighter -- enabling him to cut down opposing level 12 fighters in a single stroke. That sure doesn't make sense. They wanted multiclasses to get their HLAs right away so they didnt feel cheated in the expansion. Unless there is some really wacky stuff going on in the engine it would have been trivial to exclude, for example, weapons or armor from UAI if that had really been the intent.

This is not to say that people should put armor on their kensai. Like I said last post its just goofy from a roleplay perspective, and, though I haven't yet played a kensai/thief in ToB, I doubt I'd wear armor if I did. IMO the fun to be had from BG is from the roleplay/immersion/characters not from exploiting the millions of holes in game balance or the rather sad enemy AI.