Jaheira is a Closet Paladin

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sun May 19, 2002 12:59 am

Although she complains about "balance" when your party reputation soars, I believe that Jahiera is in actuality a closet paladin. The proof is in the pudding. When has she ever NOT supported doing good deeds?

Viconia, for example, thinks that caring about Imoen is exceedingly dumb. However, Jahiera is all for saving Viconia from the stake in the Government district. Hmmm. Perhaps a true Neutral character would view her execution as a necessary part of the balance, for the drow do more than their share of torturous murder.

A good character, on the other hand, would certainly favor saving her, for she was undeserving of her fate (I always do, even though I despise her thoroughly). An evil character would either: (a) enjoy watching her burn; (b) free her so they could kill her on their own; or (c) kill everyone there, from the crowd to Viconia herself. Sick, but likely.

Viconia seems to follow the path of a slowly reforming evil type, though she still has plenty of gross things to say. Jahiera, however, masks her closet paladinhood with references of (paraphrase) "it would be good to leave the city for a while." She always seems to tack that on to her endorsement of the doing of good deeds. Ah, but deep within, hiding beneath her druidic veneer, lies her thickly veiled, almost visible, quietly whispered, proudly announced, cleverly disguised and utterly exposed paladinhood!

See with your own eyes. Pay close attention to her dialog, and her reaction to your decisions. I tell you, it is true.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Sun May 19, 2002 1:30 am

Yeah, I've thought that too...she seems to be more suited to neutral good rather than being true neutral. Aren't druids supposed to care exclusivley about nature, the balance etc. IMO Jan Jansen would fit in quite nicely with an evil party but with Jaheira it just wouldn't feel right...

The game is balanced more to playing good characters and Jaheira being one of the main NPCS (her romance has more depth to it than the others, she has very interesting subplots) aswell as being a harper means that she seems to lurk on the side of good. Can you imagine her helping to kill a certain metallic dragon after some of the things she says?

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Sun May 19, 2002 1:56 am

Do you recall by any chance that Jaheira supports saving Viconia for she doesn't believe it right to kill someone just because she/he is a drow?

Maybe a true neutral character's decisions are based on what he/she believes to be a right reason for doing this or that. And for Jaheira, I think, killing someone for just being a drow is not a justified reason. She's not a racist.

Cheers

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sun May 19, 2002 2:14 am

Indeed. I fear councils of druids everywhere would probably deem her fit for following Meilikki (sp?), and give her the ol' shilleagh of fellowship, so to speak. Alas, neutral good druids just don't seem to fit in.

Ah, if only she had chosen to be a cleric/ranger...

A druid would only care about the actions of any creature (ie, a dragon) if it impacted nature. Dragons are supposedly part of the balance - despite alignment - and a druid might actually seek to prevent a dragon from being slain simply because it's destroying the lives of some humans (this is from a druid's perspective, mind you).

I was a little mystified by Anomen's change in alignment, personally. It seems to me that his arrogance causes his morals to fall more into the realm of evil, rather than good. To use the "Viconia at the stake" example once more, he was the only NPC who supported the execution. Strange, for if he was truly lawful neutral, he would have either assumed she had committed a capital crime, or he would have investigated the charges against her before deciding to support any course of action. In fact, it seems to me that Anomen owes the PC a great debt in attaining his knighthood, for without your guidance, he's toast.

I agree - it seems like the game is slanted towards a Jaheira romance. It is interesting, however, to note the theme music that plays during the Viconia romance dialogues - why, it's the BG2 theme, and it sounds even better than the original! I think that the Viconia romance is the second most important romance option, for some reason. Hmmmm.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sun May 19, 2002 2:35 am

Maybe a true neutral character's decisions are based on what he/she believes to be a right reason for doing this or that. And for Jaheira, I think, killing someone for just being a drow is not a justified reason. She's not a racist.

That's true. I am more or less considering a druid's role, which is supposed to be distanced from one's personal feelings. I think a druid would view the ongoing war between the drow and surface races as another part of the "balance." The taking of innocent lives on both sides is also a part of this balance, and so is inevitable. To interfere with this balance is a serious thing to a druid, which is why the druids often seem disinterested in correcting injustices. They are able to see these things, but they feel morals pale in comparison to the "balance."

I think I more or less see Jaheira's overall interest in the correction of injustices as being non-druidic.

Personally, I like Jaheira, and I would rather see her as a cleric/ranger. I also despise Viconia (she's exceedingly gross and evil), but I would always rescue her from the stake. After all, she did nothing to those people, and didn't deserve to die simply because she's a drow. I like rangers a great deal, and I think Jaheira would make an excellent cleric/ranger.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Sun May 19, 2002 2:56 am

Originally posted by Chanak
I was a little mystified by Anomen's change in alignment, personally. It seems to me that his arrogance causes his morals to fall more into the realm of evil, rather than good. To use the "Viconia at the stake" example once more, he was the only NPC who supported the execution. Strange, for if he was truly lawful neutral, he would have either assumed she had committed a capital crime, or he would have investigated the charges against her before deciding to support any course of action. In fact, it seems to me that Anomen owes the PC a great debt in attaining his knighthood, for without your guidance, he's toast.

Its true, Anomen does say this; he also advises you to side with the vampires, doesn't like you're association with thieves and suggests attacking Irenicus instead of freeing the asylum inmates. This doesn't imply he's drifting to evil, it means that he's stupid

IIRC Anomen was a character from one of the game designer's campaigns who would always seem to get the party into trouble by saying or doing the wrong thing. Any good groups should do the opposite to what he suggests (generally that is...I think he does give some good advice such as when you enter the skinner's lair) as his input is placed within the game to make it more interesting.

As far as I know, Anomen doesn't have a problem with Viconia once she's in your group unlike Keldorn...who really acts out of character when he does what he does...and he's lawful good from the start. But then again its silly to say that just because 2 people have the same alignment that they would behave in exactly the same way.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun May 19, 2002 5:13 am

Stupid Jaheria

Happened yesterday:
I'm freeing the slaves and kids in the underdark, you know,
the ones about to be eaten by spiders....

And Jaheira starts complaining about BALANCE!!!!!
What the hell are you talkin' about, girl??!
OK, let's do as you say, take those kids yourself and
FEED THE SPIDERS, then!!!!

Anyway, apart from such "minor" issues, I think her story
explaines her "good" behaviour.
She was simply RAISED as a druid, not really a free choice,
so she repeats what they taught to her just to feel safer,
but her own heart is good in truth!

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sun May 19, 2002 5:29 am

There's no doubt about it, Jaheira is a closet goody two shoes. She encourages you to side with Drizzt, for Christ's sakes!

I recommend locking her in the D'arnise keep dungeons.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Sun May 19, 2002 5:45 am

Re: Stupid Jaheria

Originally posted by Littiz
Anyway, apart from such "minor" issues, I think her story
explaines her "good" behaviour.
She was simply RAISED as a druid, not really a free choice,
so she repeats what they taught to her just to feel safer,
but her own heart is good in truth!

Its a good point, but why'd she stick at it? Would the druids indoctrinate her like you suggest?

And Jaheira starts complaining about BALANCE!!!!!

So she should! Those spiders will probably starve now

I agree with Chanak, she would have made a better cleric/ranger. And she's a Harper too and aren't they all about upsetting the balance (in the favour of good). I might SK her into a cleric/ranger next time...no longer will I have to pick from those dreadful second level druid spells

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sun May 19, 2002 9:22 am

I might SK her into a cleric/ranger next time...no longer will I have to pick from those dreadful second level druid spells

What an excellent idea. While those second level spells certainly lack, Creeping Doom is a nice spell. That's a long wait, though. I wonder how SK'ing her would affect the story...I liked using her at the Druid Grove. That would leave me with...Cernd? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Once again, from the druidic perspective (put the blinders on), adventuring itself upsets the balance. Out of all of the character classes, I think they are the least suited for adventuring. They are very specialized, and best serve in the role that druids are supposed to epitomize: guardians of the balance and nature.

@Littiz:

She complains about balance because you gain a point of reputation. She always does this - it's the thin veil that she uses to veil her paladinhood!

bullions27 · Post by **bullions27** » Sun May 19, 2002 9:43 am

RE:

CLUAConsole:RantOn("A rigid structure like alignments in AD&D is one of the absolute worst methods in creating personality for a character. There are too many scenarios in an adventure that causes conflict with alignment.")

Actually, if it came down to a choice, Jahiera would probably serve better as the Cleric/Ranger type or straight Ranger moreso than Paladin. Her life isn't exactly guided by Lawful Good morals and beliefs.

I agree with the Anomen bit. His obscene behavior comes more from his weak INT, WIS, and CHA (people with INT 10 in a low tech fantasy world were pretty chaotic). I remember him calling Jahiera a wench once. Good thing he served his purpose up to that point and I had him killed for his lack of gentleman instincts.

Pogoman · Post by **Pogoman** » Sun May 19, 2002 11:29 am

Originally posted by Chanak
Indeed. I fear councils of druids everywhere would probably deem her fit for following Meilikki (sp?), and give her the ol' shilleagh of fellowship, so to speak. Alas, neutral good druids just don't seem to fit in.

Ah, if only she had chosen to be a cleric/ranger...

A druid would only care about the actions of any creature (ie, a dragon) if it impacted nature. Dragons are supposedly part of the balance - despite alignment - and a druid might actually seek to prevent a dragon from being slain simply because it's destroying the lives of some humans (this is from a druid's perspective, mind you).

I was a little mystified by Anomen's change in alignment, personally. It seems to me that his arrogance causes his morals to fall more into the realm of evil, rather than good. To use the "Viconia at the stake" example once more, he was the only NPC who supported the execution. Strange, for if he was truly lawful neutral, he would have either assumed she had committed a capital crime, or he would have investigated the charges against her before deciding to support any course of action. In fact, it seems to me that Anomen owes the PC a great debt in attaining his knighthood, for without your guidance, he's toast.

I agree - it seems like the game is slanted towards a Jaheira romance. It is interesting, however, to note the theme music that plays during the Viconia romance dialogues - why, it's the BG2 theme, and it sounds even better than the original! I think that the Viconia romance is the second most important romance option, for some reason. Hmmmm.

Druids may view dragons as a blight of nature. The reason that I say that is because dragons, evil ones, tend to attempt to destroy and main cities and villages, where the good dragons either oppose them or they keep their distance, living in their own little worlds.

Now, I'd say a druid would view this type of destructions and all a disruption of nature. The way I understood TN alignment is this:
Now, this is a very simple example, or bear with me.

A TN druid is with a party and the encounter a group of goblins.
The party fights them and they are now outnumbered. The TN druid may switch sides and help the golblins from becoming extinct.

This is the way the I understood TN to be. I never played it when I played AD&D paper and pen.....I think the reason is pretty obvious!

Jaheria, I think, is TN, but most of the time TN has either good tendancies or evil tendancies. I remember in BG 2 there is a faction of Shadow Druids....they believe that the land and the power they gain from it are important, not protecting the land from destruction. The only reason they will protect the land is because it gives them their power.

So I believe that Jaheria is a TN character, not the paladin type.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sun May 19, 2002 3:39 pm

Actually, if it came down to a choice, Jahiera would probably serve better as the Cleric/Ranger type or straight Ranger moreso than Paladin. Her life isn't exactly guided by Lawful Good morals and beliefs.

Ah, forgive me. I use "paladinhood" simply as a moniker for her good intentions. I thoroughly agree that she is best suited for the role of a ranger, which I really like, by the way. I suppose if I nailed her alignment exactly, I would say she is Neutral Good.

I remember in BG 2 there is a faction of Shadow Druids....they believe that the land and the power they gain from it are important, not protecting the land from destruction. The only reason they will protect the land is because it gives them their power.

As I recall, there are true neutral deities that supply druids with their power. I have no idea if these same deities would supply these Shadow Druids with their power. My inclination is to say they wouldn't, for they are upsetting the balance by destroying the land. At least from what I understand of the game's story line, the Shadow Druids were slowly destroying the land by tapping it's power. There are evilly-inclined elemental beings, such as Ogremoch, that fit this kind of mold. Perhaps such a being is behind the Shadow Druids. Note that they were rejected by the druid hierarchy, and so they were sending Cernd to find out exactly what was going on.

BG2 has a great storyline.

Druids may view dragons as a blight of nature. The reason that I say that is because dragons, evil ones, tend to attempt to destroy and main cities and villages, where the good dragons either oppose them or they keep their distance, living in their own little worlds.

I remember - so long ago that it is now shrouded in the mists of time - an AD&D module where druids were protecting a Green Dragon. This dragon is neutral evil, of course, but this didn't seem to bother the druids at all. It seems that druids view any creature composed of the elements of the Prime Material as a part of nature, and thus the balance. Whether it is magical or not doesn't appear to matter - after all, they protect dryads, which are magical spirits. If one of the Beastlords from the Outer Planes were to personally show up, however, I'm sure they would have a problem with it.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon May 20, 2002 12:46 am

@Chanak: I know why she complains, I was joking about the game
mechanics!

I mean, she hadn't complained at all so far, IIRC (I had 18 rep),
and starts complaining when I do the only thing that every woman
should understand, even the most icy-cold: save kids from a horrible
death!

Apart from this, I'm starting to like her, maybe 'cause she's
doing all the killings with Impaler!!
With ToB and the high level abilities, there's no need to change
her in a cleric/ranger, I'm sure she will become pretty strong.
From a roleplaying PoV maybe could fit better anyway, and I always considered stupid how True Neutral chars are supposed to behave in BG...

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Mon May 20, 2002 1:37 am

What an excellent idea. While those second level spells certainly lack, Creeping Doom is a nice spell. That's a long wait, though. I wonder how SK'ing her would affect the story...I liked using her at the Druid Grove. That would leave me with...Cernd? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

-Chanak

Yeah, it might mess it up and you'd have to rope in Cernd for a while...even Elmonster, ground breaking soloist, had to use him for that bit.

I too would miss many of the druid spells...but (correct me if I'm wrong) don't cleric/rangers have access to all druid spells? Creeping doom is great...have you tried nature's beauty?
You can cast it while invisible and it has a whopping range, much
bigger than the manual description. just wander invisibly into a group of nasties, cast the spell, all nasties are either dead or blind! Too easy

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Mon May 20, 2002 4:46 pm

I too would miss many of the druid spells...but (correct me if I'm wrong) don't cleric/rangers have access to all druid spells? Creeping doom is great...have you tried nature's beauty?

You know, I created and used a cleric/ranger when I played IWD, but I hadn't thought about it whilst playing BG2 (I played BG2 first; BG2 was the first PC game I had played in a few years since the original Diablo). Yeah, they do access druid spells. Hmmm. I never did mess with Nature's Beauty. Since I have Jaheira in my current party, I ought to try it. Hehe.

Elmonster? Any relation to the CheeseMeister?

@Littiz:

@Chanak: I know why she complains, I was joking about the game mechanics

Oh, so sorry. I'm being pretty light about the whole "closet paladin" thing. I was just roleplaying.

Apart from this, I'm starting to like her, maybe 'cause she's doing all the killings with Impaler!!
With ToB and the high level abilities, there's no need to change
her in a cleric/ranger, I'm sure she will become pretty strong.
From a roleplaying PoV maybe could fit better anyway, and I always considered stupid how True Neutral chars are supposed to behave in BG...

I've played the game through a few times (SoA & ToB), and I always have Jaheira with me. She's among my favorite NPCs, and I like having her in the party. She can always hold her own as long as you don't neglect her. I always equip her with giant strength girdles and good armor. Do that for her, and she's a tank. With her high-level class abilities, she's awesome. I don't know if this is a spoiler or not, but she can take out Baalors and Pit Fiends. I wouldn't trade her for anyone else.

Gee, I'm an old-time DM and all that, so I guess I have my opinions on how certain classes should be played. Most classes are not dictated by alignment, but those that are, are pretty strict: after all, a Lawful Good fighter that purposefully harms an innocent doesn't lose his class, but a paladin will. Paladins, rangers, and druids are all alignment-restricted, so I always tend to be pretty strict about how they act. Otherwise, there's room for all kinds of tendencies, especially for neutral characters.

I also have to admit that I am favorably inclined towards half-elven cleric/rangers, anyway. It's a weakness, I guess.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Tue May 21, 2002 12:03 am

I also have to admit that I am favorably inclined towards half-elven cleric/rangers, anyway. It's a weakness, I guess.

It is!

In PnP they would have only minor access to the druid spells (IIRC).
So to speak: nothing above third level.

Anyway, I see your point, but no real man would change sides as the manual stated just to preserve balance, IMHO, it looks kinda silly.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Tue May 21, 2002 1:34 am

Originally posted by Littiz
In PnP they would have only minor access to the druid spells (IIRC).
So to speak: nothing above third level.

Once again, the game designers have been quite creative with their interpretation of PnP rules...as a test I just created a new cleric/ranger and Sk'd her xp up to 3million and yes they can cast any druid spell or cleric spell. Quite the character eh...almost Userunfriendlyish

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Tue May 21, 2002 1:54 am

@Chanak; Here is where you can read about Elmonster, IMO the best walkthrough written for this game (after the GB one naturally)

Who or what is the 'cheesemeister'?

Jaheira is a wonderful character...as I said earlier I think the designers envisioned her being in your party due to the depth of her romance, dialogues and subplots. She's great for interaction and has some really funny dialogues...like when she's approached by some harper and she says something like 'what is it you want? I have no coin if that's what you're after...' to which the harper replies 'charming...'

But she does act in a most un-druid like way sometimes...maybe another subplot in which she came into conflict with her druidic superiors might have been interesting?

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Tue May 21, 2002 5:23 pm

Who or what is the 'cheesemeister'?

Oh, the "CheeseMeister" is my stab at cheesy characters. Thus far, I've used SK to drop in the Helm of Balduran that I forgot to pick up in Irenicus' prison, because my mind was at lunch when I went through with my last party. I see the potential, however, to use it to whip up some pretty bogus characters. It IS tempting, you know. Ah, but temptation exists for one purpose: to be resisted! (out of the paladin handbook)

I thought: well, if I was to cultivate a cheesy character, why not make him a berserker/mage dual class? I'd call him the "CheeseMeister" because he could probably kill most anything within a round or two. You know, time stops, greater whirlwind attacks, berserk, haste, etc, etc, and etc.

I haven't heard of Elmonster until you mentioned it. That would make a stingingly satirical character name! I'll check it out. Thanks for the link!

Yes, GB has excellent resources available online - their walkthrough is terrific for those wanting to explore the depths of BG2. Their other walkthroughs are just as expertly researched. Hats off to all the hard work that went into them.

@Littiz:

I thought the way that Jaheira baited "Baron" Ployer at the Sea's Bounty was one of her most entertaining moments. She probably is the most developed NPC in the game; her importance to the character in the storyline, to me, makes her very valuable. Also, she probably has the least gross - and most meaningful - romances with a male PC.

Quite frankly, the Viconia romance sickens me. It's obvious she's beginning to develop somewhat of a conscience, but I'm regretting trying her out in the party. I despise evil characters, and the only one I could stand thus far has been Sarevok (later in ToB). He, at least, is pretty straightforward.