Kill the keldorn challenge.

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Mon May 20, 2002 2:51 am

Inspired by Loffelur's post here is a challenge for our resident mage lovers.

Whats the lowest level mage that can kill the Keldy (fairly well equipped level 32 inquisitor) in such a way that its convincing that it would reliably work (I wish we could properly test these things in a duel mode). Different categories for dual/multi vs pure type.

No hacked characters and no bug exploits. If you must use SotM, then assume you play by internet connection and Keldy gets 2 swings at you any time you need to use SotM to re-invis (avg damage would be 26.5 per swing unless your AC is <-13). No scrolls or item effects that are higher level than spells you can cast (e.g. sim helm if you're 15 or under) . You do not have access to the inventory screen during the fight, though you can use effects off equipped items (note that this will limit the number of uses of quickslot scrolls and potions). No items or powers that a character of your level wouldn't plausibly have, for characters of the level to actually win this competition this means don't assume you've got the powers from the Bhall tears or anything from ToB though WK stuff (unimproved) should be fine. Assume you start far enough away that you can get your first cast/trigger off before he can hit you.

If you have a good solution assuming he loses the cloak of reflection and you lose the SotM then that is welcome too.

Keldorn's full stats

Once you can cast 9th level spells this challenge is trivial, but how much better can we do?

Ode to a Grasshopper · Mon May 20, 2002 4:32 am

LOL! Good thread, @Glod! Have you posted this in the SoA forum too?

EDIT-If anyone is willing to go multiplayer over the internet to test the theories (acting as Keldorn, equipment as listed in Loffleur's post) that people come up with that would be much appreciated. I'd go myself but my internet wouldn't go fast enough.

Also please state what patches/mods you have, ie. Kevin Dorner's BG1 proficiencie table, Solaufein romance mod etc.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon May 20, 2002 8:51 am

Ah, ok, let's try it the hard way then...
(Though as long as he has Carsomyr, I could use the Staff!!!)

I'm supposed to do some homework now... damn Bg2!!
maybe later, instead of playing then

... it may be not so easy...

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon May 20, 2002 2:48 pm

First idea.. here we go!

Ok, I admit it, it can be somewhat hard, and needs specific
preparations

But with a dual-char with the same XPs, it wouldn't be so

(don't make me explain how, you all know, a Kensai/Mage
would just need his melee and fast spells, casted with 0 casting time
in the middle of combat, even if they're dispelled now and then..
and there are always the contingencies that I've left aside..)
For a PLAIN mage, he's a tough opponent, indeed.
Let's do without the Staff for now (though unfair!), and let's do
without contingencies, 'cause I'm lazy

-Spell Trigger (not really needed):
Animate Dead x3 (Skeleton Warriors)

Just near him, they can help in blockin' him while you move around.
Move around to wait.

-Spell Sequencer (needed!):
Invisibility
Non Detection
Haste (to fill the third slot...but let the skeletons be hasted too, why not)

Move away as he can't point his area dispels.

-Time Stop (Time Stop doesn't count as an attack, invisibility
remains!

)
-Improved Alacrity. (casted while time is freezed so you're "allowed"
to use the single player's time sistem.... I don't know how MP works
but it seems reasonable)

All the rest. When you have Spell Immunity up (abjuration and divination),
he's just a plain warrior with useless kit powers.
Shapechange in (hasted!) Mindflyer and drain his INT!
Or do simply some more melee buffs and, as User would say,
whack him with ButterKnife of Balduran!

Depending on how many 9th level spells you plan to use, the level
may be something like 21-25 .

oh, remember that if you cast Prot. Magical Weapons, it blocks even all
the dispelling powers of Carsomyr...

I think I have a couple of other ideas... stay tuned!

Thorin1 · Post by **Thorin1** » Mon May 20, 2002 3:06 pm

Carsomyr is +5 weapon, protection from magical weapons only protects you from +4 weapons.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon May 20, 2002 3:44 pm

Wrong Thorin, you're speaking about Mantle or Imp. Mantle.
Prot. Magical Weapons blocks ALL magical weapons, up to +6.
(I've tested it anyway vs Carsomyr)

island007 · Post by **island007** » Mon May 20, 2002 3:48 pm

Hi

Protection from magical weapons will stop Carsomyr.
It even stops the dispeling effect.

Thanks

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Mon May 20, 2002 7:42 pm

invis/impr inv/mislead, SI abjuration and SI divination on a trigger;

Timestop (no breaking inv)

Imprisonment

So, for 2 level 9 spells, all you need is a 20th level mage, or an 18th level specialist

or

(i'm not sure if maze surpasses MR and stuff, but...)

Maze (insta casting with robe)
Cannon fodder on the way
mislead and SI
Imprisonment

So, a level 18 regular mage would do the job

or

Without that annoying cloak, you can get his equipment, with a level 16 mage, NAKED:

Trigger, for mislead, SI abj, SI div, RUN (with decoy), cast inv on decoy and have it RUN very very far away, just in case...

Lower resistance on him (he can't see you...) (all your level 5 slots - about 5)

Maze him (int 12 = 3d4 rounds... about 8 rounds)

Cast all your skull traps (5?) and delayed blast fireballs(2?) near where he vanished

so, supposeng htat he makes all saves, this would deal:

(5*16*3.5+2*14*3.5)/2=189 HP, which would *probably* kill him outright (with that many dice being rolled, the damage should be VERY close to the average... if he doesn't die, cast any other spell... even a MM should work out fine...

When he appears, cast a spider near him to make sure that all those skulls explode (sometimes they don't with this tactic, but the spiders will do the trick...)

So, using NO ITENS (well, maybe THE ROBE, for fast spiders), a mage that doesn't even have 9th level spells could beat him... (well, a level 16 mage isn't a weakling... outside ToB, of course...)

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Mon May 20, 2002 9:50 pm

Just for reference you can't put spell immunity in a trigger, at least not in my version of the game.

My statement at the end of the original challenge was kind of implying that I'm asking for ideas for 17th level and down mages. Once you're 18 the rules I set make this a cake walk. I didn't bother excluding imprisonment because I figured noone would have 9th level spells anyway. With imprisonment, since I said you get your first cast before he can touch you, you would only need the 1 cast and its over.

The non-cloak of reflection idea of maze etc seems like reasonable entry.

On this topic anyone have a good rule deciding exactly what does or does not break invis?

Just to throw fuel on the fire, wouldn't a thief/mage be able to cause some pain on keldy at relatively low levels?

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon May 20, 2002 11:57 pm

-Spell Immunity cannot be put in a trigger. (It would be so easy otherwise)
This is why I used Non Detection in the sequencer.

-Maze is blocked by MR. I thought about maze from the start, but Keldy has a high MR, so it needs some more work to use it.

@Glod, you can't remove all the items and levels from our mages
and pretend they could still beat Keldorn at his full strenght (with 2 ring of Gaxx too...).

Anyway, with the Staff and the Robe you can surely lower the level, even avoiding cheesy tactics.
I'll post maybe something later.... gotta leave

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Tue May 21, 2002 1:19 am

@Littiz
I bet this is still doable with 17 or lower. Basically there are so many obvious ways to do it once you've got 9th level spells that I figured it wouldn't be much of a contest. I know we can do better =)

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Tue May 21, 2002 1:21 pm

Safe Keldorn "Remover", version 2.00

New (absolutely safe!) strategy, required_level lowered to 18!
(but WITHOUT 9th level spells!!!)
Sorry Glod, for now it's necessary, maybe future releases may
include support for level 17- mages!!!

Anyway, we are already 14 levels under Keldorn, and I'll use
only ONE item (THE ROBE), while he's fully equipped, and spells from
1st to 8th level.
I let him wear even the Cloak of Mirroring, cheesiest item ever.
We start at the same time.
I discovered quite good tricks with Chain Contingency, but let's
do without it, it's easier..

1)Contingency:
Prot. Magical Weapons (to put this spell you have to be 18!)
Target: Self
Condition: Enemy Sighted

Then you cast with 0 casting time Spell Immunity: Abjuration.
Whatever he's planning to do, you ARE the first.
Zero casting time, means zero.
So after a blink, you have an undispellable protection.
You have 4 free rounds now.
He may try to dispel, or hit you in melee. Hopeless.

2)Next round
Spell Trigger:
Lower Resistance x3 (MR lowered by 84%)
If he's not cheating, they are enough.
Otherwise, just cast another one, we have enough time.

3)Maze him.

4)He'll be away for 3-12 rounds.
Summon up to 5 swords and circle the point with them,
proceed with other buffs on you.
If you are VERY unlucky (three rounds) have readied the
Sequencer:
Invisibility
Non Detection
Haste
(or use it in any case)
You can help the swords if you had the time to raise your protections,
hasting them, casting spells like power word blind...
Or simply go away and let the swords do their work, he can't kill them.
Collect later Keldorn's body and resurrect him 'cause we are good,
aren't we?

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Tue May 21, 2002 2:14 pm

Gentlemen!

You are really sick! You're trying to kill the best and kindest NPC!! Tsk! Tsk! Tsk! Tsk!

..........

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Tue May 21, 2002 5:54 pm

I almost never use mord swords due to the AI which doesn't know it can't hurt them, but wouldn't Keldy be able to just run them around in circles until they expire? You didn't mention this but are you planning on trapping him in the middle of a full ring of them? I'll have to experiment with that when I get the chance.

One other thing ... you seem to be assuming he doesn't have a plain old 2h-sword to swap in when you prot from magic and/or he has no normal bolts for his crossbow. I think we should assume such is available to him.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed May 22, 2002 12:26 am

Originally posted by Aubrey

Gentlemen!

You are really sick! You're trying to kill the best and kindest NPC!! Tsk! Tsk! Tsk! Tsk!

..........

It was a challenge, we couldn't resist.

Besides, Keldy's a paladin, he had it coming.

I take it you're not volunteering to be the person controlling Keldorn, then?

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed May 22, 2002 12:30 pm

One other thing ... you seem to be assuming he doesn't have a plain old 2h-sword to swap in when you prot from magic and/or he has no normal bolts for his crossbow. I think we should assume such is available to him.

Oh yeah. My defense:
1)Usually I use that spell with the PC, who gains already the
Immunity to normal weapons.
If we are not talking about a high level PC mage, we have to rely
on active stoneskin, or change the strategy.
2)I was referring to list you gave after all....
It's clear that our friend uses Keldorn this way:
-Dispel enemy's enchantment
-Whack
With the somewhat "arrogant" point of view that no mage can
do nothing about it, which is the reason why we are here.
IF Keldorn REALLY makes a SMART use of the abilities allowed,
(as deva summoning, which he DIDN'T mention)
and does such things as keeping a normal weapon redied
(which he didn't mention EITHER),
I think only a mage of comparable level can win, we'd really
need a couple of 9th level spells!!!!
Ehi, the Inquisitor kit it's the only one that mages should fear
(wizardslayers, ah ah!!!)

What we are saying is:
Hey! A high level mage, can win.
A dual-classed mage wouldn't even need specific preparations
(guaranteed!!!!)
And if you play that way, even a low level mage can beat you!!

Anyway, I intended to circle him, yes.
But I was thinking (have to test this) if Spell Immunity doesn't
break invisibility, a better move would be to use the
sequencer to go invisibile, cast SI and follow with another strategy.
So we would avoid even the "normal weapon" exploit..

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Wed May 22, 2002 1:48 pm

Hmm, two threads, same topic...

and does such things as keeping a normal weapon redied

Even if he hasn't , Keldorn is always equipped with a non magical fist. Str 21, greater whirlwind...

( I promise not to test this out on Imoen

)

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Wed May 22, 2002 2:16 pm

BTW, wasn't there once talk of a 'BGArena' type mod at one point, where such things could be sorted out? There's a link at the freedom's reign mod site for something called 'mage duel' but it isn't working at the moment

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Wed May 22, 2002 5:29 pm

The challenge is only interesting if we assume keldy is played at with at least moderate intelligence. After all if he assumed stupidity on the part of the mage he'd win too. I did say we shouldn't be using Bhall tear powers or ToB items which would be the means of getting built in prot from normal weaps. Assume Keldorn has carsomyr, a plain 2hsword, and various bolts for his crossbow. This is far from his best possible set of weapons as he still lacks any melee weapon with elemental damage so that stoneskin can protect you (though you won't get full value out of it when he is wielding Carso due to the level 15 dispel).

I think the maze and surround with swords approach may be work fairly well if tweaked a bit from its current description.

If you're right and the only way to win is 9th level spells then its not a very interesting challenge =/

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Thu May 23, 2002 12:34 pm

@Glod:
Let's do an easy analisys.
As stated, a dual or a high level mage would have no problems.
A low level, SINGLE CLASS, mage, has to rely on his spells.
Keldorn has the Cloak of Mirroring, this bars ALL the damaging
spells.
(I was thinking about a strategy involving multiple Sunfires,
which bypass MR, but I forgot the Cloak...)
We don't want the insta-kill, even with Greater Malison,
'cause we are searching for a "sure" way to beat him.

So only summons remain, but he can slay all the summons with
ease, except for the Swords.
The swords are our only hope.
BUT, a level 17- mage wouldn't have enough of them.
I thought about Simulacrum, but he would be of a very low level.
I thought about Images, but these too use 7th level slots.
I see no way, maybe we could use the limited wish's horde of rabbits,
but limited wish is also a 7th level spell

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think there's no way to kill
him (with a "safe" method) with such an initial disadvantage.
Fully equipped, ToB abilities...
Either we remove from him the cheesy equipment (cloak of mirroring,
the second ring of Gaxx), or we have to do give more levels to our mage,
and/or complete (and maybe cheesy) equipment as well.
I'm not saying HE would win against our little mage!
The match would end 0-0.

To win, I confirm my first impression, we have to be level 22-25.
Yet, in all these tests I've discovered many interesting things,
which could help in finding new ideas.
To say one, Spell Immunity DOESN'T break invisibility!!!
This opens a lot of doors!
And I discovered a trick to cast EVERY "attack" spell WITHOUT
BREAKING INVISIBILITY!!!!!

Needs some work around, but it can be done...
Have to test more to be sure....

@Kopy: at least fists would only leave her unconscious....