Project image: way too powerful

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:45 am

Many of us has been experiencing with sorcerors these days and discovered how powerful the project image is. In my opinion it is actually flawed.

The spell definition says: "cannot make any physical attack", but it can. More importantly the term "can cast the same spells" is ambiguous. In my opionion, for a project image, that term should mean to use up the spells of the caster. But actually it uses a different set, the spells of the original caster remain memorized.

These bugs could result extreme abilities. Most of them have been already discussed by the Simulacrum spell post, like the usage of limited items. But in the case of Project Image, there is no need of scrolls to cast spells (up to the 9th level, without XP cap remover). This way not only high level creatures can be summoned, but also a Simulacrum and even another Project Image can be cast.

For example: a 17th level Mage can quickly create and maintain 3-4 copies of self and 10-20 high level summoned creatures, and a sorcerer can have twice as many.

And also the project image can be used in itself at full power with a Wizard Eye and Spell Immunity: Divination.

I think if someone want real challenge in Solo Sorceror, he should omit the this spell.

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:04 am

I agree that this is indeed a powerful spell but keep in mind that spell casters are indeed very weak physically. If thier magic does not grossly outmatch thier opponents they would not survice at all. Imagine say you couldn't cast any image spells. One of two things would happen..You would have to run and hide to sleep and get more spells when you run out or you could attempt to engage the enemy yourself which = dead mage. So while those spells are greatly overblown...its nice to be a powerful sage isnt it?

Giles the Sorcerer · Post by **Giles the Sorcerer** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:48 pm

Thats a ridiculous complaint, if it is too easy, don't exploit bugs and summon more then 5 creatures. BTW, the AI really needs to learn when NOT to target spells.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:13 pm

For example: a 17th level Mage can quickly create and maintain 3-4 copies of self and 10-20 high level summoned creatures, and a sorcerer can have twice as many.

How is that possible? The game only allows you a five summon limit. Where are you getting this 10-20 high level summoned creatures from???

Hex92 · Post by **Hex92** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:40 pm

When you caste simulacrum (and possibly project image-I havent ever caste it) the '5 summoned creatures' limit is disabled. So you can summon as much as you want.

Hex92

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:56 pm

So Kovi, your exploiting a bug that wasn't intended and then your saying it's too powerful?

*slaps forehead* Hey, here's an idea! Why don't you try not exploiting the bug!

Lemme guess, you cloudkill dragons too and they're too easy for you right?

Ah the human brain really impresses me sometimes.

bootlegcorndogs · Post by **bootlegcorndogs** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:25 pm

I have to agree here. I get rather tired of people with complaints like this.

"I removed the exp cap and now the game's too easy!"

"I set 50 snares around Kangaxx and now he's too easy!"

"I used 'fake talk' to kill Firkraag and that made him too easy!"

"I had my guy cast Simulacrum to abuse all the duplicated items or take advantage of the summoned monster limit bugs, and now I think things are too easy!"

"I used the tanner bug to max out my exp in the first half hour of the game and now I'm bored because everything is too easy!"

Here's a wild idea, nimrods. Stop abusing these bugs and oversights if you don't want to make things too easy. I'm amazed you people have the gall to whine about this. You're upset because your bug abuse is making the game too easy? Heh.

-BC

Sheriff · Post by **Sheriff** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:10 pm

I think finding and exploiting the bugs makes the game more interesting, I tried and failed to kill Firtaag 3 times before I discovered the cloudkill wand

Giles the Sorcerer · Post by **Giles the Sorcerer** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:37 pm

I enjoy finding them too, but I'm stupid enough to come and post what ammounts to "Cheating makes the game too easy!"

Garcia · Post by **Garcia** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:08 am

Originally posted by Sheriff:
I think finding and exploiting the bugs makes the game more interesting, I tried and failed to kill Firtaag 3 times before I discovered the cloudkill wand

Don't worry Sheriff some mix-up tactic with cheating. if you find a good tactic use it and don't feel bad about it, no need to do things the hard way if there is an easy. take cloudkill, you will always try to use the best spells for the given situation you are in. if there is a dragon I wouldn't summon 5 animate dead because using cloudkill is too easy I would save them for the mind flayer D. then there is also a problem in useing them in the mind flayer D. 5 hasted and strength of one animated dead can clear out a room of mind flayers without problem is this cheap??? no it's called tactic and knowing your spells some are more obvious than other.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:48 am

You are absolutely right!

There are bugs and cheesy tactics which could make the game too easy. That is why I created the "hardcore rules".
[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002733.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002733.html[/url]

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:52 am

Of course I want to try out the possibilities to choose the best tactics. But some of them are unfair and/or too powerful and would make any more strategy consideration irrelevant.

[This message has been edited by Kovi (edited 02-28-2001).]

TheDude · Post by **TheDude** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 2:57 pm

[QUOTE} no it's called tactic and knowing your spells some are more obvious than other.

[/QUOTE]

i totally agree, i used the same tactic in the flyers district summon fast creatures cast haste (make them more faster) and send them into the flyers they really die hard and if they survive then i have mine own fighter with chaotic commands (ok so i actually didn't need the creatures)

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 3:11 pm

Here is a discussion on cheating..
[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002272.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002272.html[/url]

Giles the Sorcerer · Post by **Giles the Sorcerer** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:05 pm

[QUOTE} no it's called tactic and knowing your spells some are more obvious than other.

Using Skeletons against MindFlayers is tactics,

Using couldkill against Dragons where they don't fight back is exploiting f@#@ing incompetent AI, not tactics. Intelligent AI, a well programmed dragon, or a DM would all wing buffet those spells back at you, or at least turn hostile and leave the cloud.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:39 pm

I agree with Giles 100%!!! Where's the tactics in exploiting stupid crappy AI.

Person: Casts cloudkill into darkness where dragon is.
Dragon: Hmmm, I'll just sit here and get slowly killed because I can't see whose doing that too me.
Person: Fires another cloudkill into darkness where dragon is.
Dragon: Ooh, that blast came from over there. I better just stay here in this cloudkill though.
Person: Fires another burst of cloudkill.

Repeat: Add nausea!

Stupid friggin lame *ss exploitation of a bug is not a TACTIC!

*calmly adjusts self once more*

In the end, your only missing out. I myself get a great sense of achievement when I dance toe to toe with a dragon, trying every possible thing I can to try and beat him WHILE HE'S FIGHTING BACK!!!

*sigh*

Garcia · Post by **Garcia** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:18 am

First of all this is not a bug any more than a fireball or other area-long-distance-spells why did they make them like that? It is too obvious to be a bug so they would have changed it if it were so. There has to be a line when it is cheating and when it is not. This is a matter of opinion and believing that because you think it cheating doesn't mean that is for others, don't be naive.
I don't use the cloudkill for dragons myself but I don't point fingers at people that do and state them as cheaters.
Tell me I am interested in hearing where the line (grey line) is and is there a manual since some say that "that is not the way that the producers meant it to be" did I miss out on some info. cloudkill, fireball all area spells that hit "in the dark" are cheating or does this only apply to dragons because they made them stupid? This doesn't work on mind Flyers they attack when hit (no matter if it is hit in the dark) others stand still. Let's take the exp. cap removing this is manipulating with the game which some might consider as Stupid friggin lame *ss cheating as Vehemence so nicely put it in lack of better and others as claming what is rightfully theirs, never-ending story.
Cloudkill is not cheating! It may unbalance the game a bit but that doesn't make it a cheating.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 2:05 pm

I think, we weren't talking about cheating. Just mentioned that some of the "features"/bugs would make the game too easy and recommended not to use them for a challenging game.

Anyway, in the meantime I have checked both Insect Plague and Project Image in the AD&D rulebook. There are serious differences.

Their incredible strength in BG2 is a design/programming error at the Bioware's side.

grinder · Post by **grinder** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:24 pm

Why care what someone else does?

Does someone (that you will never meet) blasting a cloudkill at a dragon really affect your enjoyment of the game?

Play how you like, play what you like and have fun doing it... end of story.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 3:46 am

Whoa, way to misinterpret what I said there Garcia! I was referring to the fact that to use a wand of cloudkill on a dragon is not a tactic, but a lame exploitation of poorly coded AI.

At no point in time did I mention cheating. If you also recall, I also said in the end that you can do what you like, it's just you'll be missing out.

Cloudkill has it's moments. I like nothing more than firing a burst of cloudkill into that small tight room and cealing the door when Samia's group tries to nick the dragon shield and sword from you. That's TACTICS!

So don't misunderstand my point here Garcia. I'll repeat just to make sure your real certain.

Cloudkilling dragons is not a tactic, but a lame exploitation of poorly coded AI. Simple as that. You have an arguement with that, then sure, go ahead and state your point, but don't misrepresent what I said and bring cheating into this. That's a whole new ballgame.