Gateway or Dell?

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri May 24, 2002 7:10 am

Originally posted by Mr Flibble
Another consideration that may well save you heaps is to look at the newer breed of Celeron

This may well be true, however we supplied some Dell's (referred to before) with 1.1Mhz celerons and i must say i wasn't impressed, a 1200 Duron i once tested would beat it down easily in the normal windows environment. I have never loved Celeron's much, i did used to have a 466 which served me well, but i do not rate Intel very highly. For games the lower end P4's do not rate well against AMDs of the same speed.

The more recent P4's apparently beat the AMD equivalent though so if it is up in the 2000 range it is better going with P4's.

I concur with the RDRAM point

Mr Flibble · Post by **Mr Flibble** » Fri May 24, 2002 7:15 am

The new Celerons on the P4 core start at 1.7GHz. Here's the review from THG on them.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Fri May 24, 2002 10:57 am

The results are in!

This is what I went for:

Dell 4500 Series:
Pentium 4 at 2.26 GHz with 533MHs buss, 512 L2 Cache
256 DDR SDRAM Going with SDRAM instead of RDRAM made a big price difference. I understand that I will never be able to upgrade to 2GB, but I also understand that RDRAM works best with the P4 2.53GHz processor (something about being fully synchronized). Also, I am uncomfortable with the proprietary nature of RDRAM, and your comments above make me happy I went this route.
17 in M782 Flat Screen CRT Monitor LCD would have been fun, but I understand that refresh rates are only just getting fast enough for 3d games.
64MB DDR Nvidia GeForce 3 Ti 200 Graphics card with DVI This was the main reason I went with Dell over Gateway. Gateway only offered the 2s and 4s.
40 GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive Would I ever need more?
floppy duh!
Windows XP Professional I understand there are compatibility problems with XP Standard (like running AutoCAD)
Logitech optical USB mouse Waverly said so… I obey.
10/100 PCU Fast Ethernet NIC This will help with broadband access if I ever get a cable connection, right?
56k Telephony Modem
24x/10x/40x CD-RW
SB Live! Digital sound card This is good, right?
Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers with Subwoofer
MS office XP Academic Pro We need this for the Access, Excel, etc. We don’t need the online training that comes with, but no choice.
Dell Jukebox I have no idea what this is for, but it was free.
Dell Picture Studio Free again.
1 yr warranty I know, I know, I should have gone with 3 or 4 years. But the cost was prohibitive, and I figure that if anything is going to break, it will break in the first year.
6 month of internet Like I would need to use this ever…

I want to thank everyone for their valuable input. I’m not a Computer Geek (though I scored 37 on the test), and you guys are extremely helpful.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Fri May 24, 2002 11:10 am

Re: The results are in!

It looks like you've done very well; I also assume that you got a good deal on that machine. As I said before, Dell has always been good to me for both service and sales, so I expect that you'll have a good experience with them as well.

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
40 GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive Would I ever need more?

That's a silly statement; of course you'll need more. First of all, no self-respecting man has enough of anything (except wives). Whether it's RAM, hard drive space, cordless drills, DVDs or anything else that can be bought and collected. Second (and more seriously), the system specs for new software are increasing all the time. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but one day, you will wish you had more hard drive space and you'll either replace that drive or buy a second one.

Back when I was in high school, we got some Mac IIc computers with 20 mega-byte hard drives and thought we had died and gone to heaven. Then we go a 100 MB machine and thought, "We're never going to need that much hard drive space!"

Now I challenge you to find a good game that has come out in the last six months that takes less than 100 MB of space; you're probably not going to find one. However, if 40 GB of space will do you for now, you've done good (but I've still got good money that says you either replace that hard drive with a bigger one or add a second drive in the next two years!).

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Fri May 24, 2002 11:33 am

LOL @HLD!

You are quite right, I will ultimately run out of space. Fortunately, that is an issue I can handle.

My first machine had no hard drive, and ran off one 5¼” floppy. My second was a leg-crushing laptop that ran off two 3½” floppies. Next came my first hard drive at 700 MB. I rebuilt that machine and added a 1 GB drive about 4 years ago. That drive died (it was full anyway), so I replaced it with a 10 GB drive 2 years ago. I haven’t filled it up yet, not even close, so this 40GB drive currently feels like a luxury!

I remember a computer guru friend of mine showing off his new computer at work some years back. It had a 40MB drive partitioned in half. He swore that he would never have to use the second partition. At the time, the entire MS Word program fit on one floppy (low density), so we thought 40MB was unbelievable!

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Fri May 24, 2002 1:00 pm

by gwally
I know, I know, I should have gone with 3 or 4 years. But the cost was prohibitive, and I figure that if anything is going to break, it will break in the first year.

Did Dell tell you this?

Looks like a fine machine. You shouldn't need a full until Christmas at the earliest. HLD will never have enough drive space until his flare for all the .avi and .mpg available online dies down, which of course will never happen, thus his valid argument.

I hope fate is on your side and the warranty works out. When you get the machine, take a good look and verify those hardware components are what the packing slip says they are. Also peruse the web sites of the manufacturer and make sure the drivers are updated. Do this before you install games. Otherwise, it is such a buzz kill to go through the normal install process plus expansion plus patches plus mods plus cheats and then start to have things crash right when you get excited to play the first time.

Now you need that DVD writer.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Fri May 24, 2002 1:10 pm

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
HLD will never have enough drive space until his flare for all the .avi and .mpg available online dies down, which of course will never happen, thus his valid argument.

Now you need that DVD writer.

Flanders surely speaks the truth; if I had a DVD writer, I could get all of the Tera Heart and Janine Lindemulder files off of my hard drive, free up some space and then 40 GB would be more than ample.

EDIT:
@Gwalchmai:
Sometimes you can call Dell at or near the end of your warranty period and they will offer an extended warranty for 1-5 additional years.

The way I see warranties is that if you pay an extra hundred bucks for it, and you call them one time, it has paid for itself (much like AAA automobile coverage). If you call them twice, then you're ahead. Computer shops will often charge anywhere from $75 to $100 per hour plus parts (which they will mark-up considerably). When I do work on people's computers, I charge $50 an hour, and I don't have any overhead or a shop to maintain. With a warranty, especially a front-to-back warranty, that covers both parts and labour, the extra $100-300 you spend may well pay off over the lifespan of the machine.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri May 24, 2002 2:43 pm

Originally posted by HighLordDave
The way I see warranties is that if you pay an extra hundred bucks for it, and you call them one time, it has paid for itself (much like AAA automobile coverage). If you call them twice, then you're ahead. Computer shops will often charge anywhere from $75 to $100 per hour plus parts (which they will mark-up considerably).

Sounds advice, i have had many peripherals die not 3 months after i decided there wasn't any point extending the warranty :-/

@Gwally, sound choices, i could pick holes but then i prefer AMD systems, for what you have and what you want it is perfect

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri May 24, 2002 2:53 pm

Re: Re: The results are in!

Looks nice Gwally! - are you pleased?

Originally posted by HighLordDave

(but I've still got good money that says you either replace that hard drive with a bigger one or add a second drive in the next two years!).

LOL!

my 3.5gig drive became 'D' drive after two years. I installed a faster 20gig drive two years ago and it is still only half full.

My reason for replacing it would be to get a faster one - though I still don't need all that space. I think partly because I am a control freak when it comes to a tidy hard drive, any program not being used is uninstalled. Also, I know Sleepy does not think it wise, but I regularly defrag - I like things tidy and optimised. The idea of defragging an 80gig nearly full drive would give me nightmares!!

Mr Flibble · Post by **Mr Flibble** » Fri May 24, 2002 2:58 pm

Re: Re: Re: The results are in!

Originally posted by Yshania
The idea of defragging an 80gig nearly full drive would give me nightmares!!

Defragging my 60GB drive the first time took a couple of days

@Gwally, looks good! I'm envious!

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri May 24, 2002 3:20 pm

Re: Re: Re: The results are in!

Originally posted by Yshania
Also, I know Sleepy does not think it wise, but I regularly defrag - I like things tidy and optimised. The idea of defragging an 80gig nearly full drive would give me nightmares!!

Damn right!

They do more damage than good In my opinion.

I recently cleared a hard disk from 190MB to 1.2GB just by clearing out the unwanted stuff, personally i say back up and format, but i use my machines for games mostly, so i am pretty much always savegame influenced.

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Fri May 24, 2002 3:20 pm

Use your task scheduler to run scan disks and defrags once a week. Set the tasks up for middle of the night and you'll never know they ran. i'm probably over organized and defrag twice a week. I may have a total psychotic freak out if even one .dll from an application migrated from its' original contiguous disk space from install. I lose sleep at night over mods and patches just wondering where they reside. Anyone know of any mapping tools where you graph out information residing by platter, cylinder, or sector. Okay, exaggeration is getting the best of me here.

@HLD,

LOL

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri May 24, 2002 3:39 pm

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
Use your task scheduler to run scan disks and defrags once a week. Set the tasks up for middle of the night and you'll never know they ran. i'm probably over organized and defrag twice a week. I may have a total psychotic freak out if even one .dll from an application migrated from its' original contiguous disk space from install. I lose sleep at night over mods and patches just wondering where they reside. Anyone know of any mapping tools where you graph out information residing by platter, cylinder, or sector. Okay, exaggeration is getting the best of me here.

@HLD,

LOL

LMAO!! I hear you here!

The only thing is, I cannot set a scheduler to run in my absence - my pc is not switched on in my absence

I always turn it off - I have gone through a few cooling fans in the time it is turned on!

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Fri May 24, 2002 3:47 pm

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
I hope fate is on your side and the warranty works out. When you get the machine, take a good look and verify those hardware components are what the packing slip says they are. Also peruse the web sites of the manufacturer and make sure the drivers are updated. Do this before you install games. Otherwise, it is such a buzz kill to go through the normal install process plus expansion plus patches plus mods plus cheats and then start to have things crash right when you get excited to play the first time.

Now you need that DVD writer.

I'm a little worried about the warranty, but I am hopeful that any problems that crop up can be fixed by me or my wife. Mrs. Gwally in particular is not a dumb person and can usually figure things out if she puts her mind to it. If I add things later and have problems, I can check out various computer sites to look for similar problems and how they were fixed. I think the biggest issue will be to just get it up and running in the first place. I don't intend to do a lot of tinkering.

Several people had mentioned getting the wrong parts from Dell, and I intended to make a careful check before running it. I also planned on going into the MS website to look for patches and updates to Windows first thing. Do you think I need to look individually at the web sites for all components (graphics card, sound card, modem, etc?)?

I tried to get Mrs. Gwally interested in a DVD player, but she said "Why would we ever need to watch a movie on our computer?" I could tell by the tone in her voice that there would be no convincing her. A DVD writer would be right out, unless I could convince her via the Christmas present suggestion...

Originally posted by HighLordDave
Flanders surely speaks the truth; if I had a DVD writer, I could get all of the Tera Heart and Janine Lindemulder files off of my hard drive, free up some space and then 40 GB would be more than ample.

Sometimes you can call Dell at or near the end of your warranty period and they will offer an extended warranty for 1-5 additional years.

Now I just need to figure out who these Tera and Janine people are..... *considers running a search, decides to wait until he gets home and everyone is asleep. well, maybe not...*

That's a good idea. If problems persist, I will probably try to extend the warrantee.

Originally posted by Mr. Sleep
@Gwally, sound choices, i could pick holes but then i prefer AMD systems, for what you have and what you want it is perfect

Pick holes all you want! It will be a learning experience for me. AMD wasn't widely available at Dell or Gateway, and to get a good selection of them I would have needed to go to another supplier, like Alienware. Mind you, they had some very sweet systems, but pricey. It seems like AMD is generally as good as Intel, but they always seem to be playing catch-up. My other option would have been to build my own machine, and I had several very kind (

) offers of help to do this. I was tempted, but I suspect I would have ended up spending more money in the long run as I succumbed to the lure of the best components.... This was just less painful..

Originally posted by Ysh:
Looks nice Gwally! - are you pleased?

I'll be please when it gets here, but it may take two weeks!

@Sleep, Ysh, and Mr. F: I've never bothered to defrag: I was never sure it would help much and might mess things up. What's the reason for doing this? Would it help improve the performance of my current machine (which jumps and lags while playing ToB something fierce)?

Mr Flibble · Post by **Mr Flibble** » Fri May 24, 2002 3:49 pm

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
Anyone know of any mapping tools where you graph out information residing by platter, cylinder, or sector. Okay, exaggeration is getting the best of me here.

Can anyone say 'overkill'?

@Ysh, you can always set the automated startup option in the BIOS to start your machine early in the morning or just before you get home from work and put the defrag program in your startup group. That way you arrive to find a nicely defragged computer on and waiting for you! Kinda sucks a bit if you go away for a while though.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri May 24, 2002 4:22 pm

Originally posted by Yshania
LMAO!! I hear you here! The only thing is, I cannot set a scheduler to run in my absence - my pc is not switched on in my absence I always turn it off - I have gone through a few cooling fans in the time it is turned on!

@Ysh, you can always set the automated startup option in the BIOS to start your machine early in the morning or just before you get home from work and put the defrag program in your startup group. That way you arrive to find a nicely defragged computer on and waiting for you! Kinda sucks a bit if you go away for a while though.

Damn you Flibble you beat me to it again!!!!

I was going to reccommend just that

- One word though, it does require fiddling with BIOS, if one is unfamiliar (which i know Ysh isn't

) it might be worth getting an expert to show you how plus some older motherboards don't feature the feature.

If one has a network there is also a feature known as wake on LAN which will boot a machine when there is any network activity.

@Gwally, Defrags reorganise your hard disk into a correct pattern, when one uses windows, deletes programs or moves anything around it can fragment the references, so defrag puts all these little references back in place. It also is supposed to put them in order of most used.

The reason i despise them is trial and error, i have lost (count it) 5 hard disks to DeFrag problems, they crash about a day after doing one. I didn't actually lose the hard disk merely the data, but still it is a very annoying thing to happen. I consider this a scientific method, i have run about 8 defrags and 5 have killed a hard disk. I have tried windows ones and Norton, both did the same thing.

If it works for everyone else, go for it, but i would avoid it if you don't want surprise hard disk crashes.

Anyone, feel free to prove me wrong

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Fri May 24, 2002 4:43 pm

by Ysh,
LMAO!! I hear you here! The only thing is, I cannot set a scheduler to run in my absence - my pc is not switched on in my absence I always turn it off - I have gone through a few cooling fans in the time it is turned on!

Personally, I think powering on and off is one of the most physically straining one can do to a computer (aside from launching off a roof or dropping in a bathtub full of water). The heating and cooling off all the parts is stressful. If I ever need to power off my PC, I usually power it right back on.

by gwally
@Sleep, Ysh, and Mr. F: I've never bothered to defrag: I was never sure it would help much and might mess things up. What's the reason for doing this? Would it help improve the performance of my current machine (which jumps and lags while playing ToB something fierce)?

ask later gotta go but I was really going to answer to this. You can find me on the zone in five minutes for a game of age of empires 2. I'm 'childofgondor', though I doubt anyone is headed there right now

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Fri May 24, 2002 4:51 pm

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
I could tell by the tone in her voice that there would be no convincing her. A DVD writer would be right out, unless I could convince her via the Christmas present suggestion...

Some words to live by: It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Just get the DVD writer.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Fri May 24, 2002 5:01 pm

@Sleep: Thanks. I couldn't afford a disk crash right now (until my new machine arrives!), so no defrag for me. I'll just plod along as is for the next two weeks.

@Ned: okay....

@HLD: Good advice! I'll try it (but with something small first...)

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri May 24, 2002 5:11 pm

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
@Sleep: Thanks. I couldn't afford a disk crash right now (until my new machine arrives!), so no defrag for me. I'll just plod along as is for the next two weeks.

You might want to back up anyway onto disk or something, i find that the time these crashes happen is when you most don't need them to

BTW HLD you asked a while back how much hard disk recovery costs, over here it is somewhere in the ball park of 600-1000 pounds, my boss reckoned it was 700 but he wasn't sure.