Throne of Bhaal - 40th level?!

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:22 pm

Everyone should take a good, long look at the front page of the site. The ad for the BG2 expansion says that characters will be able to reach 40th level... I've been playing AD&D for about 8 years, and I can't even begin to comprehend what exactly it means to be 40th level. Clearly, Black Isle will be making this up as they go. I said in a previous post, somewhat facetiously, that parties in Throne of Bhaal would be insanely powerful and dressed from head to toe in priceless artifacts if the storyline continued with the current character, and it looks like that may very well be the case! What creatures could possibly challenge that kind of party? What items could excite you when you've already got the Holy Avenger, and Crom Faeyr? Black Isle's got their work cut out for them, certainly. Any thoughts?

[This message has been edited by TheHellion (edited 02-28-2001).]

KN · Post by KN » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:27 pm

Sounds cool to me. I will not be happy till my character takes his rightful place amongst the gods.

------------------
"Four thousand throats may be cut in one night, by a running man."
- Klingon Crewman "Day of the Dove"

Bro'Drake · Post by **Bro'Drake** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:30 pm

I hope that they simply mean that it is technically feasable to reach 40th level (ie, you HAVE to sop up all XP possible in the entire expansion)...

Although, from the name of the expansion, you'd expect that the protagonist character would be fairly high-level to ascend to godhood.

Just a thought, however.

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:35 pm

Drizzt Do'Urden, Elminster, Khelben "The Blackstaff" Arunsun, hell, even the bloody Simbul; your character would be able to take out the lot of them without breaking a sweat. WOW. That's all I've got to say.

(maybe a slight exaggeration there)

[This message has been edited by TheHellion (edited 02-27-2001).]

SubTerran · Post by **SubTerran** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:50 pm

if any of you guys ever watched Shaft? you would know how I plan to act in BG expansion once I am level 40, muahahha,
Me
"Whats my name m*^&%# f%&^#$?!"
Lloth
"no please it's....!!"

Bro'Drake · Post by **Bro'Drake** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:36 pm

I dunno, for whatever reason my protagonist character-as-Bhaal will probably talk like Fat Abbot from South Park.

Agoth · Post by **Agoth** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:39 pm

Elminster is more powerful than the Simbul

She even says so.

bootlegcorndogs · Post by **bootlegcorndogs** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:58 pm

My guess would be that this will be along the lines of the "level 30 Heart of Winter" thing. Possible, but extremely unlikely you'll even get close. (As long as I'm on the subject, anyone else think HoW was a bit of a ripoff? It was short even for an expansion, and yet almost as expensive as a brand new game. I hope this isn't indicative of what we can expect from the BG2 expansion.)

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:16 pm

Originally posted by Agoth:
Elminster is more powerful than the Simbul She even says so.

You smartass.

She's just modest.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:01 am

I'm sorry but this is absolute pap.

In 2nd edition rules this happens:

A fighter is a Lord by level 9 with a stronghold & army
A Priest has a church/stronghold and up to 200 military followers.
Rangers, by level 10, get up to 12 followers (other rangers, intelligent animals, fantastic creatures etc.)
Thieves get a stronghold and followers by 9/10 or something.

What happened to roleplay? By level 9 or so you stop gaining insane HP because you are so powerful anyway. By level 20 a fighter has THACO 0 anyway. Level 9/10 are pretty powerful characters - the challenge then becomes dealing with bigger events. How do you manage your stronghold, guild or army. You can develop your followers and embaark on BIG adventures. How much more powerful is 40th over 30th?!?

Ther should be YEARS of training and adventuring between level ups at certain stages.

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed BG1/2 & IWD (although level 30 in HoW is pushing it for me. But this is starting to suck. Sure, make the character ascend to godhood if thats what it takes, but what about the other party members - they're not bhaalspawn. This is just laziness. New areas, new items, same sh*t.

bootlegcorndogs · Post by **bootlegcorndogs** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 5:00 am

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
I'm sorry but this is absolute pap.

In 2nd edition rules this happens:

A fighter is a Lord by level 9 with a stronghold & army
A Priest has a church/stronghold and up to 200 military followers.
Rangers, by level 10, get up to 12 followers (other rangers, intelligent animals, fantastic creatures etc.)
Thieves get a stronghold and followers by 9/10 or something.

What happened to roleplay? By level 9 or so you stop gaining insane HP because you are so powerful anyway. By level 20 a fighter has THACO 0 anyway. Level 9/10 are pretty powerful characters - the challenge then becomes dealing with bigger events. How do you manage your stronghold, guild or army. You can develop your followers and embaark on BIG adventures. How much more powerful is 40th over 30th?!?

Ther should be YEARS of training and adventuring between level ups at certain stages.

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed BG1/2 & IWD (although level 30 in HoW is pushing it for me. But this is starting to suck. Sure, make the character ascend to godhood if thats what it takes, but what about the other party members - they're not bhaalspawn. This is just laziness. New areas, new items, same sh*t.

I partially agree, and partially don't. Here's why.

On the one hand, if you look at this from a purist roleplayer point of view, this level 30-40 crap is insane. People like Elminster don't even approach that, so why should you?

On the other hand, not everyone that plays BG2 or any of the other games in this genre are hardcore purist roleplayers. Most of them neither know nor care that level 40 is ludicrously high in D&D. These are the people that complained the loudest about the exp cap, and for what it's worth I can see their point. Gaining levels is fun. Once you max out in BG2 (which for me traditionally happens around Chapter 3 or 4, usually barely even halfway through) the game loses something. If your characters aren't advancing further, things get dull. You're merely slaughtering monster after monster, gaining nothing, moving the plot along.

Bottom line, someone is going to complain one way or the other. Make uglies and quests worth less exp, preserve a reasonable experience cap or the racial level limits, and keep things on a traditional, pure D&D level, and then people who aren't hardcore roleplayers will be disappointed.

Remove level limits entirely, let players advance as far as they want as long as they can keep finding things to kill, and the average player will be quite happy, whereas the hardcore players get disgusted.

You can't please everyone, so who do you piss off? Believe it or not, I'd rather go with the latter option, and I think Black Isle will too. Why? This way everyone can enjoy the game on at least some level. Aside from the fact that the average armchair gamer makes up a much larger percentage of the market, let's face it; gaining levels is fun. No one LIKES hitting the ceiling. Even the most rabid, devoted D&Der can't help but express a little irritation when they just can't advance any further. Level 40 might be incredibly silly, but at least it'll be fun.

This all ties in to my stance on the wider variety of NPC and PC races issue, too. Screw realism. It's bizarre enough that people are arguing for fantasy realism in the first place. If you're playing a fantasy game, go all out. Hell, I want my PC to be a dragon in the next game. (grin) Sure, it'd be stupid as hell, but wouldn't that be COOL? Isn't that the whole point? Heh.

-BC

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 5:37 am

I agree mostly - games like this are also made for the general public, heck - I don't know much about D&D rules.

But even though my character is now a lvl 9/lvl 19 fighter/cleric I still experience that I have to reload a game because my PC or NPC dies. And according to what I read this shouldn't be happening often because my PC is so high in level.

I also agree that the game looses some when my characters reach the XP-limit, and I often find myself restarting the game then.

A couple of solutions could be - that you can make 2 sets of rules - one regular with lvl. 40 and one true to AD&D with a kind of lvl.-cap.

Another thing (but this is going farther away from AD&D rules) but you could make a kind of differentiation so the monsters maybe follow another kind of leveling - so that they increase in HP, TACH0, resistance/immunities as you do.

But anyway - I can't wait until the expansion, I just hope that it gets to Denmark fast

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:38 am

Originally posted by bootlegcorndogs:
On the other hand, not everyone that plays BG2 or any of the other games in this genre are hardcore purist roleplayers. ...

Gaining levels is fun...

If your characters aren't advancing further, things get dull. You're merely slaughtering monster after monster, gaining nothing, moving the plot along...

Bottom line, someone is going to complain one way or the other...

You can't please everyone, so who do you piss off? Believe it or not, I'd rather go with the latter option, and I think Black Isle will too....

Hell, I want my PC to be a dragon in the next game. (grin) Sure, it'd be stupid as hell, but wouldn't that be COOL? Isn't that the whole point? Heh...

-BC

Fair enough. But I'm not a D&D purist and the concept is just too ridiculous for me.

Gaining levels is fun but your are selecting which rules you would keep and discard in a rule based system.

What's wrong with slaughtering monsters and advancing the plot? *I* don't give a monkeys for games with no plot but that let you advance in level.

But you hit nail on the head with the last points. That's why they're doing this 40th level cr*p.

My point was (I was ranting) - they can do this, fine, my rant won't change anything. But its the same old cr*p. 30th? 40th? Dragon? Who gives a damn. That's *extending* the gamplay. If they wanted to *evolve* the gameplay, they would introduce more aspects of roleplaying powerful characters.

Do powerful PC's have take on equally powerful NPC's? Many a stronghold was captured not by powerful individuals but by armies.

Ubik · Post by **Ubik** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:07 am

40, huh? Well, I have to agree with Gruntboy, it IS ridiculus - and note that I have never had any D&D or AD&D PnP experience.
I just find this whole "lets get higher" thing too out of measure. Out of balance. If they had created a new world from scratch - just like in the Might and Magic series for instant - it wouldn't be that odd. But they are placing the game in a world that exists. All those supposed super-powerfull characters mentined before - Elminster, Drizzt etc. - are lower than the level you are after finishing BG2. Well... don't know, but this is too much.

Has anyone played M&M series? I have played 6, 7 and 8. The first two before BG1. I had enjoyed them. #8... well, that was after BG and I had pressed myself hard to finish it (of a walkthtrough, for Bhaal's sake) just to see the end. btw I was lvl 70 when I finished M&M 7

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:18 am

I think it would be much cooler if the game the expansion was not based so much on level but on learning new things by either exploring or figuring out expansize puzzles or mysteries and not on hacking through monsters... Don't get me wrong there should be a lot of that but only as the affects whatever adventure you are on...you know...
anyway that would be cool for me.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:50 am

Now for my rant.

I don't care for the extra levels....right now, with the group I got...

1.Me > 17 level Cavalier
2.Minsc > 17 level
3.Jaheira > ? (at the cap.)
4.Nalia > 17 level
5.Edwin > 17 level
6.Imoen > 17 level

I don't believe there is any thing that Black Isle can throw at me that I cannot defeat , either by a full frontal assault or by using tactics.

I would rather have a story line full of adventure rather than a Diablo type game. One where you learned skills and explored areas.....

End rant..

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 8:07 am

Right on Weaseel. I'd take a level 40 F*er anyday with that party.

Carrot · Post by **Carrot** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:52 am

Weasel try and take Arkanis Gath with that party of yours.

.Would like to see if you lasted longer then 10 seconds.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:13 pm

Originally posted by Carrot:
Weasel try and take Arkanis Gath with that party of yours. .Would like to see if you lasted longer then 10 seconds.

I don't believe there is any thing that Black Isle can throw at me that I cannot defeat , either by a full frontal assault or by using tactics.

Kieran_Frost · Post by **Kieran_Frost** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:17 pm

Are you kidding me? I'd love to be able to reach level 40! I love, near the end of Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II to walk around and know, my mage on his own could wipe the floor with any encounter. When I visit dungeons my mage scouts about, his magic missiles, improved speed and spell casting make him an amazing opponent. Image level 40, I'd have no need for any NPC's, or anyone.

Kieran_Frost