Throne of Bhaal - 40th level?!

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:31 pm

Originally posted by Kieran_Frost:
Are you kidding me? I'd love to be able to reach level 40! I love, near the end of Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II to walk around and know, my mage on his own could wipe the floor with any encounter. When I visit dungeons my mage scouts about, his magic missiles, improved speed and spell casting make him an amazing opponent. Image level 40, I'd have no need for any NPC's, or anyone.

Kieran_Frost

Yes the fun you could have...

As I wade thru the hordes of goblins with my Level 17 Cavalier...I know I am the supreme warrior...nothing can touch me...I have risen to Godhood..

Is it fun to know you have no chance to lose...that the next fight will be just as easy as the last...?

mizuno · Post by **mizuno** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 2:06 pm

i think you only can achieve lvl 40 by soloing, to all the expanson interplay had done, they are all very short and only will get you about 2 or 3 more levels( for a party of 6), if you soloing from the start of BG2 to end of expansion, you probably can get lvl40 or even higher.

a lvl 40 mage will mean he could cast at least 5 or 6 lvl9 spells,
lvl paladin means he can be beaten by undead, just simply walk to the grayyard and Bohdi will die

lvl fighter means simply walk in front of a dragon and kill it with one blow.
lvl 40 cleric is god anyway,
lvl 40 ranger or druid can control all the animals in the world.
lvl 40 theif can kill everything without seeing blood.
well, that's describtion might be not relastic, but lvl 40 is just a bit too powerful

i still think it's an expanion, thus the ex. cap is lvl 40 not everyone will get that amount of ex. and to get that amount of ex, you'll probably need 10millions ex points, not possible

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:01 pm

Gruntboy's definitely got the right idea. A level 9 character is awesome in the PnP game, but in BG2 it's nothing.

That brings another thought to mind; despite having an average party level of 17, I really don't feel as powerful as it seems I should be. I could smack around a dragon like a raggedy Andy doll, but that doesn't seem to carry much weight without any real sense of accomplishment. Somehow, I don't think throwing 20 more levels and a heap of artifacts at my feet is going to improve this feeling any.

200+ hours is what I damn well oughta get for my $50, yet even that doesn't seem like enough time to reach such a high level. No doubt this a side effect of being such an avid fan of the PnP game, but the awe remains. Ultimately, I'm able to separate the two, and enjoy BG2 for what it is. Hopefully I'll be able to do the same with the expansion, but pressing on to level 40 just might be hitting a brick wall with nowhere left to go.

Astovidatu · Post by **Astovidatu** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:34 pm

I shudder to think what we have to fight to even be a challange.... Oh look, another horde of Ancient Red Dragons. (Boom boom. Thud.) Oh look, its the all of the Illthid in the Underdark. (Blam Blam Whack... Thud.) What could they possible throw against you thats a challange? Nothing short of a deitiy could put up a fight agaist 6 lvl 40 PCs. I only hope thats a theoretical thing, not something that anyone will do without playing through the game about 500 times.

Satyr · Post by **Satyr** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 5:39 pm

I think very high levels begin to take all the roleplaying aspect out of the game. Why bother talking/stealing/planning/hiding/etc. when you can just walk in and kill things with your steely gaze?

I used to do some AD&D and we used to retire characters and entire parties from time to time. Start again on level one with a new location, new foes, new plots. We even wrote the exploits of previous characters into the history and legend of the game world.

I'd rather have seen the BG series end ... start a new one in a new location, new monsters, new plots. All of a sudden Orcs would look challenging again!

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There's nothing I like better than the sound of the bagpipes... unless its the sound of a chicken being strangled.

mitheral · Post by **mitheral** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:25 pm

Here's another technicality against the level 40 issue - it is impossible according the AD&D 2nd Edition Players Option rules.

Unpon attainign level 30, you are then able to pertition for godhood. If I remember correctly, you ask a god that you follow (like, emulate, etc) and if they think you are worthy (huh), they will give you a Quest to complete. You need to accumilate around 500,000 XP while doing this quest.

If you complete the quest to the gods satisfaction, and obtain the XP, then you are able to become a DEMI-god.

This is not the Time Of Troubles, where there are positions available in the Pantheon, and finding lost artifacts gets makes you a God or Godess.

So, what could we fight at level 30, how about a dracolich, a dragon lich (it does exist and is a Forgotten Realms monster).

And there is a difference between CRPG (Computer Role Playing Games) and PnP (Pen & Paper) AD&D. My favourite character I ever had in PnP was a level 4/9 dual-classed Fighter/Cleric that I took from lvl1 up.

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Butt kicking, For Goodness

bootlegcorndogs · Post by **bootlegcorndogs** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:02 pm

Again, I think some of the later posts in this thread are looking at the issue too much from a D&D standpoint. For instance, I'm seeing a lot of complaints that monsters will be too easy to a level 40. Well, given that the PC couldn't reach 40 in the first place in a real game, what's to say the uglies aren't going to be far stronger than they should be too? I don't think you need to worry about a complete lack of challenge. They'll find something difficult.

Besides which, think about game length. We've all seen how disappointingly short Heart of Winter was. Not much point in getting too terribly riled up about a possible level 40 in the BG2 expansion given that A) odds are you'll get nowhere even close (after all how close has anyone with a full party gotten to 30 in HoW? Low 20s, max?) and B) the game will probably be so short that you won't even have time to notice. If you guys really want to gripe about something, gripe about the high cost and low return. As I said before, HoW cost very nearly as much as a brand new game and barely added an hour or two to gameplay time.

-BC

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:20 pm

Originally posted by bootlegcorndogs:
Again, I think some of the later posts in this thread are looking at the issue too much from a D&D standpoint. For instance, I'm seeing a lot of complaints that monsters will be too easy to a level 40. Well, given that the PC couldn't reach 40 in the first place in a real game, what's to say the uglies aren't going to be far stronger than they should be too? I don't think you need to worry about a complete lack of challenge. They'll find something difficult.

Besides which, think about game length. We've all seen how disappointingly short Heart of Winter was. Not much point in getting too terribly riled up about a possible level 40 in the BG2 expansion given that A) odds are you'll get nowhere even close (after all how close has anyone with a full party gotten to 30 in HoW? Low 20s, max?) and B) the game will probably be so short that you won't even have time to notice. If you guys really want to gripe about something, gripe about the high cost and low return. As I said before, HoW cost very nearly as much as a brand new game and barely added an hour or two to gameplay time.

-BC

Fair enough. A few things, though:

I agree to a certain extent, but I don't quite see how anyone could look at the issue too much from a D&D standpoint. Isn't it specifically a D&D game? In fact, won't almost any reviewer (somewhat beside the point) judge the game based on how closely it follows the PnP rules? And regardless, BG2 is designed to appeal to a particular audience; namely, the D&D audience.

That said, I understand that the game was never intended to follow the rules to the letter. In fact, it already doesn't. Several creatures in BG2 were a lot tougher than they otherwise would have been in the PnP game, for the sake of game balance.

All of this is beside the point. I guess my fear is that the expansion, somewhat like BG2, will promise some real evolvement, and instead offer up more levels, and more items. Nothing's really changed; instead of fighting hoards of orcs with a sword +1, you fight hoards of Balor with a sword +5. The context changes, but the mechanics are still essentially the same. That's really the only disappointment I had with BG2, and I hate to say that I predict more of the same with the expansion. I hope Black Isle proves me wrong.

bootlegcorndogs · Post by **bootlegcorndogs** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:18 am

Originally posted by TheHellion:

I agree to a certain extent, but I don't quite see how anyone could look at the issue too much from a D&D standpoint. Isn't it specifically a D&D game? In fact, won't almost any reviewer (somewhat beside the point) judge the game based on how closely it follows the PnP rules? And regardless, BG2 is designed to appeal to a particular audience; namely, the D&D audience.

That said, I understand that the game was never intended to follow the rules to the letter. In fact, it already doesn't. Several creatures in BG2 were a lot tougher than they otherwise would have been in the PnP game, for the sake of game balance.

All of this is beside the point. I guess my fear is that the expansion, somewhat like BG2, will promise some real evolvement, and instead offer up more levels, and more items. Nothing's really changed; instead of fighting hoards of orcs with a sword +1, you fight hoards of Balor with a sword +5. The context changes, but the mechanics are still essentially the same. That's really the only disappointment I had with BG2, and I hate to say that I predict more of the same with the expansion. I hope Black Isle proves me wrong.

On that, at least, I can agree with you. I don't want the whole thing to degenerate into a math problem. "Player strength x2 + weapon strength x2 = monster strength x4" would be bad for everyone. My point is just that we should worry less about how closely the game adheres to hardcore D&D rules, since it already doesn't, and worry more about whether it's fun to play or innovative.

Mild spoilers forthcoming.

Although on a personal level, I wouldn't care even if the expansion WERE just bigger monsters and items, as long as there's plenty o' new NPC interaction. I'd like to see a lot of things resolved, especially since BG3 isn't certain to ever come out. For one thing, I'd like to see the romances conclude, especially Viconia's, since hers was left more open-ended than the other three. I'd also like to see Minsc complete his dejemma, Jan kill or otherwise deal with that gnome that married and abuses his friend, Nalia (even though I can't stand Nalia, closure is always good) finish up the whole Roenall thing conclusively, etc. etc. You get the idea. Closure!

-BC

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 7:12 am

be all that you can be, who does'nt want
to cast 9th level spells from there spell book, who does'nt want there f,m,c to be
18, 18, 18, in level. why not become the
hardest thing in D&D, Just for once. Also
consider the fact that back isle, may have decided that the game was to easy for good players, has bg1 was until tales of the sword coast came out that was a hard game the first around. Anyway it'll take 400.000
per level to go much higher,and we it be possible
for a six man party to get to level 40. if this is the last bg game then i think we should go out with a bang BE ALL THAT YOU CAN BE. YOURS ROWDIN.

[This message has been edited by ROWDIN (edited 03-01-2001).]

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 2:08 pm

Im alright with the LVL40 rules
But the way AD&D was made you went either with the mage or fighty bloke (fighter easy at start hard at end visvursa for mage)but this will mean at the end that the mage (this only aplies if the mage continues like it does)will have spell that un load time stop lower reistance 6X and death spell and protections of -10 from 10 were the fighter will not advance like this(not the spell but the easy ness of playing) I can only see 2 ways of solving this cut mage spells as they are(or slow the progression)or implement the lisence(like in BG:2 but harder to get)

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My soul may be warped by evil;My conscious by bribe, but the true path has never vanished for i have Just heart and kind way.

KensaiRyu · Post by **KensaiRyu** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 2:59 pm

About the question earlier, what are level 40 parties gonna fight? How about each other. I think it would be cool if we had a gladiator pit online where we could try out different combinations against each other and see which one really is the best. (course the person that won would probably be cheating somehow)

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 3:20 pm

KensaiRyu; sounds too much like BattleNet and the PK'ers from Diablo.... Not really my cup of tea, but then again others may find it fun -

I have no problem with leveling up as far as the game allows (or the hack allows in some cases). But then I never played PnP AD&D either. The Monsterous Compendium lists some pretty nasty characters that if met in numbers (and some alone) that could destroy a party of six level 40 characters in a flash. We'll just have to wait and see...

mizuno · Post by **mizuno** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 3:25 pm

anyway, the expansion is already officially announced by nlack isle and bioware, it is confirmed that the max lvl of AD&D is lvl40, they got around with the 2nd rule somehow i think. god, we will have a lot places to advanture, including : watcher's keep, City of Saradush, the Fortified Monastery of Amkethran, Sendai's Underdark Fortress and the player's own Abyssal Stronghold. for me it sounds like BG3 more than expansion because from ToSC and HoW, those are very short , and ToB will have around 8millions experence for each character. sounds really like BG3 for me

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 5:46 pm

Originally posted by Bootlegcorndog
On that, at least, I can agree with you. I don't want the whole thing to degenerate into a math problem. "Player strength x2 + weapon strength x2 = monster strength x4" would be bad for everyone. My point is just that we should worry less about how closely the game adheres to hardcore D&D rules, since it already doesn't, and worry more about whether it's fun to play or innovative.

Mild spoilers forthcoming.

Although on a personal level, I wouldn't care even if the expansion WERE just bigger monsters and items, as long as there's plenty o' new NPC interaction. I'd like to see a lot of things resolved, especially since BG3 isn't certain to ever come out. For one thing, I'd like to see the romances conclude, especially Viconia's, since hers was left more open-ended than the other three. I'd also like to see Minsc complete his dejemma, Jan kill or otherwise deal with that gnome that married and abuses his friend, Nalia (even though I can't stand Nalia, closure is always good) finish up the whole Roenall thing conclusively, etc. etc. You get the idea. Closure!

-BC

On that one, I'm with you 100%.

A BG3 is pretty unlikely, so this expansion is going to have to wrap everything up. Regardless of whether or not character evolvement includes little else other than levels and artifacts, the actual development of the character is what's important, through story and interaction.

Still, I wouldn't mind getting a little fame (read: notoriety

) and fortune, possibly lead a battle? They had the right idea in trademeet; nothing strokes the ego like having a statue made in your likeness.

Well, I think this topic has been bled for everything it's worth. Good discussion, tho'.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 5:40 am

BC, whas is the differnce in challange between a lvl 1 PC party fighting a horde of kobolds and a level 31 PC fighting a horde of Balors?

There's your challenge. Like I said, same old sh*t and I'm getting bored of it.

Not even a 21st level PC party could take on an army by itself. Survive a siege? Set up a new border town? Run a prosperous mine? Sure, heroes are important but the levels are going a bit too far now. I want more gameplay, not more levels. So maybe I'll play something else instead of BG3. If you want levels, Gauntlet has lots of those

bootlegcorndogs · Post by **bootlegcorndogs** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:39 am

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
BC, whas is the differnce in challange between a lvl 1 PC party fighting a horde of kobolds and a level 31 PC fighting a horde of Balors?

There's your challenge. Like I said, same old sh*t and I'm getting bored of it.

Not even a 21st level PC party could take on an army by itself. Survive a siege? Set up a new border town? Run a prosperous mine? Sure, heroes are important but the levels are going a bit too far now. I want more gameplay, not more levels. So maybe I'll play something else instead of BG3. If you want levels, Gauntlet has lots of those

How is any other game any different? At some level they're all like that. IWD is just a level 9 or so guy fighting a horde of umber hulks. My point is the BG series had a good story that I'd like to see played out, not just cut short early simply because the PC got too strong. Hell, have someone suck his god half out and drop his butt back to level 1, for all I care. Or drop all their levels to 1 and offer no explanation whatsoever. I want to see more story, not more levels.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:48 am

So we agree we want more story, not more levels? Um, so are we arguing or not?

bootlegcorndogs · Post by **bootlegcorndogs** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 10:43 am

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
So we agree we want more story, not more levels? Um, so are we arguing or not?

I can't remember. I think so, though, because you're tired of Baldur's Gate in general and I'm only tired of the protagonist. (grin) The Baldur's Gate NPCs need their own game. Boo's Gate or some such.

KN · Post by KN » Fri Mar 02, 2001 11:51 am

Geez, some people are never satisfied with anything.

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"Four thousand throats may be cut in one night, by a running man."
- Klingon Crewman "Day of the Dove"