Kill the keldorn challenge.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Wed May 29, 2002 3:35 am

If Carso only dispels as a level 15 caster, there's always going to be a chance that it wouldn't work against a high level enemy...against Littiz's character the chance of success would only be 55% (lvl 14) and thats without the SI:A in place. Poor old Carso - but go SotM!

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Wed May 29, 2002 7:32 am

In case I wasn't clear there: Carsomyr was always failing to dispel against level 12 characters who had no immunities or protections of any kind beyond the stoneskin I was trying to have it dispel. This leaves me wondering if it ever works at all.

Ok further testing done. SKed Jan down to level 1 and worked him back up with CLUA. Against Jan below level 10 it seems to work near 100 percent (should test this a bit more to be sure but got no failures prior to 10). At level 10 it appears to be 50 percent chance (8 for 16). At level 11 it drops to near 0 (0 for 20 in test). This really sounds like bugginess IMO but hey learn something new every day I guess. A decent number of monsters are level 10 or below so Carso should be effective against them, but most of the places (vs human/elf/lich casters) you'd really want it to work its worthless =/

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Wed May 29, 2002 9:40 am

Always failing against lvl 12? It should have a dispel chance of 65% or thereabouts...maybe its casting level is much lower?

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Wed May 29, 2002 3:41 pm

I couldn't understand why there was a difference between the staff and carso so I changed Carsomyr's dispel to match Staff of the Magi... cheating? Well it is supposed to be the best sword around so.

island007 · Post by **island007** » Wed May 29, 2002 3:53 pm

Hi

Just tested Carsomyr and the previous posts are correct. It is not that powerful of a sword without the dispel magic effect.
Maybe next time I use Keldorn I will upgrade the Purifier and have him dualwield with Arguvial(?). That will free up a ST belt.

I wonder if Carsomyr's is suppose to be like that or if it's a bug.

Thanks

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Wed May 29, 2002 6:26 pm

Did a little bit more testing. The high level stuff all was the same but there does appear to be a substantial chance of dispel failing vs level 9 and possibly lower so my first low level test just got lucky it appears. Making Carsomyr even sadder than I thought.

Carsomyr does bypass spell immunity just like SotM/arrows, but since it only works at all on levels 10 and under it won't matter for this duel scenario.

I can't believe this is really working as intended. I'll buy the possibility that its too powerful if you upgrade to the super-powered SotM dispel, but having the dispel be worthless against levels over 10 just seems wrong since its supposed to such a legendary weapon.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Thu May 30, 2002 1:18 am

It would have been better if the level of dispel matched your own level IMO.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Thu May 30, 2002 6:28 am

I don't know if this is a bug or not, but we're stealing
nothing if Carsomyr is unable to dispel with Spell Immunity.
Dispel is always abjuration school, so Spell Immunity should
really block it.
Carsomyr doesn't work vs high level enchantments? Makes
sense though, it's an EVIL-smiter weapon, not a MAGE-smiter.
Mages have the edge in magery....
The real bug IMHO is in the arrows!!!!

Anyway, you keep changin his equipment even resorting to items
which come in LIMITED supply...

Unfair...
While I have to change the choice or order of my spells!
So I say, I'd go for MindFlyer's Collar and have him dominated!
I won! Go me!

So, it seems like his abilities are not enough!!!
And even with the arrows, he wouldn't have an easy ride...
I'd go concealed as usual... Once buffed, melee... He could
use the bow at close range so I can hit better for a while.
Assuming the arrows work (I think there's always a check...),
I can always quick-cast some spells again, not sure who
would be the winner...

Actually, and surprising, really there's only a thing that he could
try: War Cry!!!
(Though I hardly think Lofferul took this one...)
A clean Save vs Spell.
My Kensai/Mage lvl 12/14 would have a to score 4, considering 25% MR (equipment), we have a resulting 85% chance of saving...

Still greatly against his odds, and this is already a defeat for Keldy,
having to rely on the crappiest ability, hoping for an unlikely
result... and given the fact that I'd go concelead in the beginning,
maybe he couldn't even chase me!!!

Or following your UNFAIR steps, I could say: "Let's take a Kensai/Mage
with the long sword DragonSlayer, so he's immune to fear!!!!!!!!!"
NO!!! Let's just put in the starting sequencer: Invisibility, Non Detection,
Emotion!!!!! We're immune!!!!
Go me!!!

ehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Anyway, let's collect the results.
Loffelur vastly underestimated mages, but maybe we (I) underestimated
a bit Keldy, as an Inquisitor is the only warrior type who can
provide a challenge. Yet we've demonstrated that a dual has LOTS
of choices and abilities to win in all cases, while he can only
hope in alternative equipment or very unlikely events.
Surely with the originally listed abilities he was in VERY weak position...
And we're still playing with a great gap in levels, just to remember...

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu May 30, 2002 6:40 am

Can you post those edited Carsomyr versions, @Bruce? Can't have my Lorelei wielding a dispelling weapon that doesn't dispell.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Thu May 30, 2002 7:50 am

Here goes. This has dispel effects same as the Staff. Meaning it never fails.

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Thu May 30, 2002 2:35 pm

Just for the record I do not keep changing his gear or abilities, you just keep saying I do. Aspects that weren't specified I added to early on but otherwise left it untouched. His gear is not supposed to be optimal for this fight. Some people have speculated on the advantage of Keldy having other gear and thats interesting to talk about but I never proposed changes to gear except once, upon request, to weaken keldy by taking away his second ring of Gaxx since that was an obvious cheat.

Your post seems like you feel that someone (me?) is arguing that keldy can't be beat by a lower level dual mage but this is just not the case. Actually my original thought was that 9/14 would do (back when I thought Carsomyr worked better), and with the lame Carsomyr as it exists in game I'd say 9/13 should do it. Any lower would be tricky since gr deathblow would be effective against you and you can't really avoid the risk of taking a hit at that level. I originally posted this challenge in part as a lark and in part to see if anyone had any interesting mid level spell ideas, not because I didn't think it could be done.

I don't know if weapon hits bypassing immunity was an intentional feature (I'm not one of the game designers) but it makes sense from roleplay and from game balance perspectives and all dispel on contact weapons have it (the three mentioned and also the improved ilasera bow come to mind). I diagree with the idea that Carsomyr is just anti-evil. Casromyr is both anti-magic and anti-evil. 50 %MR, 3 dispel casts and dispel on contact are all anti-magic features, while the only specificially anti-evil feature is the 5 points of bonus damage vs CE. If you're saying Carsomyr's dispel should suck as badly as it does I can't agree. If there was way to implement wielder level dispel that would probably be the best balance IMO.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri May 31, 2002 12:15 am

Thanks @Bruce. Is that for the Carsomyr +5 or the Carsomyr+6?

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Fri May 31, 2002 12:42 am

It is the +5. I normally upgrade purifier instead but I can change the +6 also if you wish.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri May 31, 2002 1:19 am

If it's not too much trouble that'd be great. I've got a Bun Bun type character who I used to have using the SotM, but Carsomyr works so much better.
Ta.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri May 31, 2002 3:40 am

@Glod:
Oh, not referring in particular to you, it's only that I felt surrounded,
and the only one actually trying to come up with something!

(with more minds at work, maybe somethin more brilliant
could have shown up..)

I'm strongly against your balance interpretation.
All things should have their counter, it's clear.
But Spell Immunity-Abjuration already has many:
Khelben Warding Whip, Ruby Ray, Pierce Magic, Pierce Shield,
Spell Strike...

Actually it doesn't even provide protection against Breach,
or similar spells, the only thing that it stops is DISPEL!!
(oh, and Kangaxx...)
So, balance is having it removed by the only thing that it
should block???!??!?!

No. IMHO, this is a bug, bad implementation of the spells
granted by items.
Maybe something like skipping a check.

About the dual: I think now that lvl 14 for the mage side is really needed,
for the sequencer!

About Carsomyr: ok,let's say it's against magic too.
It's clear that, bug or not, it is not intended to dispel
as SotM does, otherwise they would have set max dispel lvl
instead of 15, as was done for SotM!
THIS really seems intentional.
Guys, don't you feel that changing it that way makes Carsomyr
TOO powerful?
Even Kuroisan will be a breeze.
The Staff is somewhat balanced by the fact that mages are not
often in melee.
I would prefer having it fixed to effectively
work as 15th level dispeller.... is it possible?

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri May 31, 2002 5:13 am

Originally posted by Littiz

Guys, don't you feel that changing it that way makes Carsomyr
TOO powerful?

You haven't heard about my Lorelei, evidently. She likes too powerful, she was taking out most of the enemies in 1 or two rounds with the SotM, and that was before I added the kensai bonuses. Now she has a 7x backstab multiplier and the same no. of archer bonuses as my lvl 40 archer. As soon as I can find the affects code for the barbarian immunity to backstab she'll have that too.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Fri May 31, 2002 5:24 am

it's only that I felt surrounded,

This isn't the Kill the Littiz challenge you know

Leonardo · Post by **Leonardo** » Fri May 31, 2002 6:30 am

Is Carsomyr really nerfed?

I reckon my Inquisitor's Carsomyr dispelling Irenicus protections on the Tree of Life and in Hell; and I'm almost positive it dispelled protections against Sendai and several liches in ToB.
Doesn't the level you are refering apply to the 3 times/day Dispel instead?

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Fri May 31, 2002 7:03 am

Thats very interesting leonardo and merits some examination if we can come up with situations where we're sure that Carso is dispelling against high level monsters. Note that the message "dispel effects" doesn't mean anythign was actually dispelled, it said that all the time in my tests even when nothign was being dispelled.

The tests I was doing were with Keldorn beating on Jan Jansen (I love the little guy btw, just he was the most convenient mage to test against in the savegame I was using). I tried it with keldy at level 12 and also at level 33 and it didn't seem to matter, it still wouldn't work against Jan once he was level 11 or higher. Yes I am talking about the dispel on hit aspect, not the 3/day dispel casts which I didn't test at all.

@littiz I understand =) I didn't want to post my own battleplan because that would have kind of defeated the point of offering the challenge. I agree that Carsomyr getting the SotM dispel is too much (actually I think SotM having that dispel is too much too). It would be much more reasonable if it was wielders level dispel, perhaps plus a few levels. Fixed level 15 would be ok in the context of SoA but it ought to be increased with the ToB +6 upgrade or else it would be worthless there. However, though the file makes it look like a fixed level 15 dispel, in practice, at least in my NPC vs NPC test, its much weaker than that.

Anyone who has a repeatable test of Carso dispelling against high level opponents please let us know.

Leonardo · Post by **Leonardo** » Fri May 31, 2002 7:11 am

I'm sure it did dispel. Stoneskins (even Dragon ones) went away in one or two hits, Liche's Fireshields disapeared and such.
I'll try to test it at home against enemy high level casters tonight.