The post that will end the Classes War

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 8:33 am

I played my part in it and I've been thinking about this whole thing last night.

I'm honestly fed up of it. This kind of discussion has been going for weeks on this forum and the BGDungeon forum.

I was not the first to play the sorceror or to solo it. I did it to get to know the class better, as it was very overlooked by the very vast majority of the BG2 community. Still the advantages seemed intersting to me and I wanted to try it out.

It was though in the beginning but the character soon end up being a real behemoth.

So I prepared that Survival Guide for the sorceror. A way to tell the people that the class IS far more powerful than what it seems at the first look.

I think I've done my job pretty well and so far the Guide has been sent to 18 people (oups, make it 19 now) by email, it appears on 2 forums, and will probably be in the Strategy Section of GameBanshee.

Over the time, what as been a source of information turns out to be a contest of which is more powerful and that is sad.

Of course, at the same level of xps, the sorceror is very often more powerful than most other classes. That is a fact. Sad in a certain sense because we expect the game to be balanced.

But we should NEVER forget that DnD and BG2 were NEVER designed to be played by a single character, but by a group of adventurers with different skills. Some are more powerful in certain circumstances (like any mages when they have full of spells) and some are totally crappy in other circumstances (like any mages when they are low on spells... that is why they are backed up by fighters, which are backed up by clerics, etc).

On a one on one contest, assuming that any spellcasters are rested and not knowing what ennemy they'll face they memorize the everyday spells, I think that these will be the result of an encounter with a sorceror :
- Fighters and fighter kits : sorceror wins
- Rangers and ranger kits : sorceror wins
- Thieves and thief kits : sorceror wins
- Bards, skalds and blades : sorceror wins
- Jesters : sorceror may be in trouble with the confusion ability... depends on initiative I guess
- Clerics and priests : sorceror wins,
- Druids and druid kits : sorceror should win, unless crappy casting in the first round that would allow the druid to send a creeping doom (first round determines the outcome)
- Barbarians : sorceror wins
- Monks : sorceror should win, but the fight may be longer by the time MR is lowered and the stoneskins are kept up in shape to resist the attacks
- Pure Mage : close match but sorceror should win in the long run.
- Specialist Mage : very close match, depends on luck and initiative, but the balance is tipping a liiiitle bit in the favor of the sorceror (what spell he wants is what he casts, while the spec mage would wish he had memorized it).
- Paladins and paladin kits : these are a pain for the sorceror and as much as my ego wants it, the everyday sorceror would have a though time beating these guys (with Carsomyr), even less if he's an inquisitor. If he's prepared for the encounter, that is different, but a surprise fight between an unprepared inquisitor and an unprepared sorceror, the inquisitor should win, unless very unlucky (like a successful Chromatic Orb in the first round : the inquisitor is dead).
- Kensai/mage : sorceror will probably win (a though fight)
- Ranger/cleric : sorceror will probably win (a though fight)

But then, soloing the sorceror means you'll rest often to always be in top shape, while a ranger/cleric dual wielding the flail of ages and the mace of disruption (not Crom Faer as it comes too late in the game), will be weaker than the sorceror in the first hours of the day (as the sorceror is full of spells), but will keep on with the same beat as the sorceror will have to slow down earlier.

So there are a lots of paper for the scisor sorceror to cut, but there are some nasty rocks out there that can take it out with some ease. And that is fine, because a class that beats everyone should no longer be in the game. And it would be sad to see the sorceror being deleted in the expansion pack...

So this was my final comment about this topic. Anyone who thinks I'm wrong in my above opinions should play the sorceror and then give me some feedbacks.

As for now, I will try to find a way to enjoy the game again. It has become a pain and a challenge vs other people in the community lately, and I will go down to the basics... like having this romance with Viconia (I left my evil Kensai a long time ago while the romance was going well), or like removing the xp cap and continue playing my sorceror with lvl 9 spells.

I just want to have fun!!!

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:01 am

I just want to have fun!!! I agree with this all the way..

TheDude · Post by **TheDude** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:05 am

ok really great, a good end we all just want to have fun !!

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:14 am

Good end, but I disagree with the premise, "This will end all discussion, the sorcerer is the best." While I agree the sorcerer is the most powerful character, I disagree he has an advantage in duels which is what the debates are about. I think the advantage in duels is too item dependent, particularly the 4 items I've mentioned: Staff of Magi, Cloak of Mirroring, Protection from Magic Scroll, and Imprisonment Scroll.

RiPPeR · Post by **RiPPeR** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:14 am

Hey Pat bou, you have said these things about soceres and i became curious, i really never played as a pure mage, only dual and multi, i was playing as a monk and you could give me some tips of how to play a soceror

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:16 am

Considering you're so tired of this discussion, did you hope to end it by adding your own, unassailable opinion?

I have some doubts about the outcome in your duels. Don't you for example have to consider protective spells already cast on the sorceror as well as weapon and distance for the fighters? A elven archer with a dex of 19 equipped with, say the Tuigan Bow, will make spellcasting rather difficult. As would a fighter with a strength of 18/00, grand mastery in scimitars, dual wielding Belm and another scimitar. How would you counter Insect Plague, if you don't know which spell the druid casts until he's done with it?

I don't say you're wrong. But is the answer as simple as you put it?

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:33 am

Originally posted by RiPPeR:
Hey Pat bou, you have said these things about soceres and i became curious, i really never played as a pure mage, only dual and multi, i was playing as a monk and you could give me some tips of how to play a soceror

email me at pat_bou@videotron.ca for the complete sorceror's guide and the override files for staff of the magi and the ioun stones.

Also, take a look at http://www.bgdungeon.com/Ubb/Forum1/HTML/015493.html

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:36 am

The truth is that the outcome is dependant on the encounter. if the sorcerer is using a staff of magi...druids cannot target him with insect plague...also those who can use the prot from magic scroll (which excludes all fighter classes) cannot target him with the scroll...so that whole protection from magic is also dependant...As far as i can see the only way any other class will have a decent chance is if they can fight and detect invisibility at the same time. ie inquisitor or druid. No one else can do this...especially fighters who have no way of detecting invisibility...since they cannot use scrolls. *there are no potions of detect invis* and also remember mages can cast some excellent spells while remaining invis...eg morkadianan sword.

bottom line..if you can see the mage always you have a chance.

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:07 am

Originally posted by Nighthawk:
Good end, but I disagree with the premise, "This will end all discussion, the sorcerer is the best." While I agree the sorcerer is the most powerful character, I disagree he has an advantage in duels which is what the debates are about. I think the advantage in duels is too item dependent, particularly the 4 items I've mentioned: Staff of Magi, Cloak of Mirroring, Protection from Magic Scroll, and Imprisonment Scroll.

You probably get me wrong, and I think I was not clear enough.

This will end the discussion :
- no need to compare the characters as they are designed to be part of a group, not compete against each other or playing solo.
- mea culpa to certain classes that I know will give troubles to the sorceror

Note that my final word about the sorcerer was "I _think_ the results should be this". Still an opinion, based on my experience of the game.

Some items are very powerful indeed. It would effectively be interesting to do these duels with "naked" characters (only non-magical items). The results might be different, but not necessarily.

Any items found before the Asylum should be allowed (i.e. items found before the xp cap is reached), except lvl 9 scrolls and protection scrolls (there are only 2 such scrolls in the game). For any gamers, these are common items (staff of the magi is common in my sense, since any solo mage at level 15 can get it easily).

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:26 am

will the out come be any diffrent after we get level 40 rules. Do celrics and druids Get 8th and 9th level spells. my best and most complete pc so far is my 9,20 fighter,celric. will he get better with the expansion. e.g spells. YOURS ROWDIN

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:32 am

No, there are no 8th and 9th level spells to cleric and druids.
But I dont agree with that "sorceros win", the staff of the magi does not give invesabilety if they are casting a spell.
A fighter/mage or fighter/cleric could win quite well, in fact even a standart mage with the same equipment sould win.

------------------
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
Cats, 2101.

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:37 am

HERE WE GO AGAIN.
YOURS ROWDIN

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:52 am

Originally posted by Astafas:
Considering you're so tired of this discussion, did you hope to end it by adding your own, unassailable opinion?

I have some doubts about the outcome in your duels. Don't you for example have to consider protective spells already cast on the sorceror as well as weapon and distance for the fighters? A elven archer with a dex of 19 equipped with, say the Tuigan Bow, will make spellcasting rather difficult. As would a fighter with a strength of 18/00, grand mastery in scimitars, dual wielding Belm and another scimitar. How would you counter Insect Plague, if you don't know which spell the druid casts until he's done with it?

I don't say you're wrong. But is the answer as simple as you put it?

My own unassailable opinion take into account stoneskin (always on), mirror image (casted in the first round) and contiguency with stoneskin (when hit for damage). I don't know how you can forget that, as this is the basic of any spellcasters (i.e. archer is getting nowhere, as the scimitar wielder and any other characters relying on such strategies).

Like I said : "Anyone who thinks I'm wrong in my above opinions should play the sorceror and then give me some feedbacks."

Your lack of understanding of this class is obvious from your comment.

You also seem to forget that you can't attack an invisible at will target (from the basic piece of equipment of the sorceror : the Staff of the Magi).

And you also seem to forget that even if you can see the target, a spellcaster will have a very hard time bypassing the Spell Trap of the Staff of the Magi.

Finally : speed. Look at any spells of the mages and their casting time. Substract 5 from that (robe of vecna and amulet of power). Then look at the supposed druidic spells that should be a pain for the sorceror, and substract one from casting time (amulet of power) :
- Creeping doom : casting time of 5 - 1 = 4
- Insect plague : casting time of 5 - 1 = 4
- Summon Insects : casting time of 9 - 1 = 8

Even Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Whilting (8 - 5 = 3) is enought to disrupt the druid or the cleric. Not only having a long casting time means that the opponent spell will go off before yours, but it also means that you are casting for a long time and that the chances of disrupting the casting are greater.

Note also that the goal of anyone is to disrupt any spellcasting. The sorceror will never wait for the druid spell to take effect to act. He'll disrupt it in the first place and when the druid spells will be low, he'll come into melee and then it would be over for him (as many more offensive spells are to come from the sorceror's part).

Knowing the classes is probably the key to end this discussion.

The only reason I have replied to this is to make the last statement obvious. Not because I want to continue the thread or because I want to be right and you wrong, but I want to end the argument.

Know the sorceror. Then you'll understand who this guy is and how many a$$ he can kicks (paladins a$$ are too neat to be kicked by any respectful sorceror!).

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:55 am

Originally posted by Pat Bou:

Knowing the classes is probably the key to end this discussion.

The only reason I have replied to this is to make the last statement obvious. Not because I want to continue the thread or because I want to be right and you wrong, but I want to end the argument.

Just want to make sure everyone sees this.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:04 am

I have to tell you that I do like soloing in the game and also like these (currently only theoretic) duels!

The most interesting aspect of solo playing for me is not to go through the game and power-kill all the AI controlled creatures. But the way of learning how to master a specific class.

The most interesting aspect of these discussions about dueling is not that which class could win. But the way of learning how to use a class better and probably differently from what I have learned against the AI. And I could also learn a lot about other classes/prossibilites, what otherwise I would never try out.

Anyway I also bet on the Sorcerer even without the staff of magi (and we should also drop cloak of mirroring and those high level scrolls).

So, I still welcome any new tips and ideas!

Silverblade · Post by **Silverblade** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:20 am

Ok no matter what somebody will disagree with you. PEOPLE JUST HAVE FUN.

That's all I have to say on the subject

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:39 am

Originally posted by Drakron Du´Dark:
No, there are no 8th and 9th level spells to cleric and druids.
But I dont agree with that "sorceros win", the staff of the magi does not give invesabilety if they are casting a spell.
A fighter/mage or fighter/cleric could win quite well, in fact even a standart mage with the same equipment sould win.

Really? A standard mage would win against the sorceror? Can you explain that to the benefit of all here?

Again I would guess you don't know the sorceror. As a matter of fact, if you would, you would know that the staff of the magi grants invisibility AT WILL. That means that the sorceror is invisible, cast a spell at casting time minus 5 (usually 1 or 2) and then immediately becomes invisible just by clicking on the staff (this is not a casting, but an equipped and permanent ability). Even if an offensive spell or attack is initiated against the sorceror while he's temporarily visible, the attack will cease as soon as he becomes invisible, as will the spellcasting (the spell would even be lost).

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:44 am

Pat you've done a great job pointing out how difficult it would be for another class to defeat a well played sorcerer...the only way we could really convince any sceptics further is for them to actually play a sorcerer and see just how powerful they become with the correct spells after level 15 with the staff of magi...till then they will continue to compare them to regular mages or npcs...

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:45 am

After I have bet on the Sorcerer...Pat, I also have some challenges for you!

The first is dual Mage/Cleric with Robe of Vecna, contingencies, triggers, etc. (I would prefer leaving out Magi).

The other is...a sorcerer!

One more thing: a sorcerer should have to use the same set of spells for any duel, while a mage could memorize different ones. Which spells would you choose?

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 11:51 am

Originally posted by Kovi:
After I have bet on the Sorcerer...Pat, I also have some challenges for you!

The first is dual Mage/Cleric with Robe of Vecna, contingencies, triggers, etc. (I would prefer leaving out Magi).
B]

a duel cleric/mage is not really a contest...no insect plague...no creeping doom...less spells than a sorcerer or not even having level 7 or 8 spells depending on when they dualled...no high level cleric spells...actually they prob wouldnt even last very long.