The post that will end the Classes War

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 1:51 am

Invibility: as said earlier True Sight can be avoided with the Spell Immunity: Divination. The Spell Book of Infinity is nice, but only one spell per day can be casted. Nevertheless I keep the opinion to disallow the re-equip of Magi.

Project Image: as in "hardcore rules", I recommend to use neither Project Image nor Insect Plague and also not abuse Simulacrum.

Initial defenses: I think that spellcasters could have their inital denfenses and initial summoning before the battle (but those spells have to be cast). Or we should give the warriors some round penalty to sharpen his sword and take on his armor.

Limiting items: it is really not realistic to compare pure characters, but we should somehow limit the available items (otherwise any mage could "counter" a sorcerer saying he have collected a lot of high level scrolls). I recommend that only quick item slots could be used. It seems we have agreed upon that no 9th level spells/scrolls are allowed. Now I would even say that no 7th or higher level scrolls can be used.

Flail of ages: very good point. The additional damages "hit through" stoneskin and disrupt spellcasting. An improved hasted character could hit about 4 times per round which cause 12 separate minor hits. Neither single specific protections nor even Mirror Image help, just give a little chance to cast (by catching some of the damages).
The best defenses are either Protection from Elements + Protection from Acid or a Protection from Magic weapons. Mages should think about memorizing those before a specific duel, but a sorceror probably haven't learned these spells. Maybe they could keep a scroll, but that could be breached. I wouldn't say that now a pure fighter could win against a Sorcerer. But this possibility may shift the balance in favour of mixed characters (fighter/mage, ranger/cleric, mage/cleric).

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 1:55 am

And we're sticking with the salary cap, right?

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 2:35 am

Limiting the items on a total value is not a bad idea.

Anyway I'm sorry about the last post, it was really meant for the other thread. There will be no more strategy posting from me in this thread.

RiPPeR · Post by **RiPPeR** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 9:12 am

please guys end this discussion, all classes have weakness , and to be strong you would need a group with the abilities of many classes, and the best class is that played by someone who know it very well

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 9:51 am

Originally posted by RiPPeR:
please guys end this discussion, all classes have weakness , and to be strong you would need a group with the abilities of many classes, and the best class is that played by someone who know it very well

This is not a fight. A lot of people have expressed their thoughts that they like this discussion very much. Other than for the intervention of Gruntboy, I guess everything was going quite well.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 10:30 am

Wooooo! Your handbag just missed me. No fight in this thread PB - He's not referring to me in the slightest

------------------
Its shocking, Foul. I was happily spamming away when BAM! a serious discussion broke out.

T'Challa · Post by **T'Challa** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 3:04 pm

Couldn't a spell trigger that had the ruby ray, breach, and the warding whip cause trouble because the ruby ray would drop any basic high level resistance, the breach would drop the skins, and the warding whip would remove high level protections for three rounds. Follow that up with a contingency that had another breach for subsequent stoneskins a lower resistance and an acid arrow or stun spell (if hp is lower than 90). Would this give the sorceror trouble? Just asking.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:32 pm

Exactly T'Challa. There are plenty of variables. Its not as absolute as PB makes out. I think its arogant to make claims lie 'The post that will end the Classes War'.

I hope he doesn't take our little flame war seriously (there's a lot of this "best class" stuff going on) but you just can make wild generalisations like that.

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 4:53 pm

If you're casting those, we're talking about sorcerer vs sorcerer or some other mage. As far as pure spell casting in a duel goes, the sorcerer is unquestionably better than a mage. He gets more spells memorized and has better flexibility in using them.

You still need to get past the incredibly strong Staff of the Magi to even target the sorcerer though. And he'd probably be wearing a Cloak of Mirroring which is immune to all those anti-protection spells and would reflect the Acid Arrow. You're probably better off trying to get rid of the spell protections then hitting him with Greater Malaison and Disintegrate.

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 03-02-2001).]

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:04 pm

About that specific spell trigger: see the reply in the other topic.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:26 pm

Pat, I think it was foolish of you to start a new thread on this same topic. You would avoid all this tedious stuff you've answered already if you just stuck to the other thread.

Secondly, stating that your post would end the class war was in my opinion, very arrogant. To add to that, you stated that in your opinion the sorcerer would beat every other class. This is no way to 'end' a discussion. If anything, you provoked a larger discussion.

Thirdly, I dislike you 'assuming' that other people don't know what they're talking about and that they probably haven't even played a sorcerer. Your only gonna get more people rowled up this way and are going to have to repeat yourself over and over and over again.

Fourthly, your strageies are flawed. Everyones are, and I guarantee you that someone out there with a class you protested would fall to a sorcerer will kick the crap out of a sorcerer. The archer and a gesen bow will be highly effective to state one such example.

There is another thing bugging me. The staff of the magi. This is a cheap trick to un-equip and re-equip it. Shows a lack of confidence in the socerers other spells. True sight would not be the only way to counter this. A thiefs Detect Illusion skill would counter this.

To sum up, I think you've probably poked the bear Pat. This topic has the potential to be a great thread for discussion of strategies and counterstrageies in a PC vs PC battle. You have turned it into another 'my class is better than your class' discussion and it is very disappointing to see. We all know we have great characters and would all like to believe that we've got the greatest character. But in truth, there is no greatest character, they all have weaknesses and these weaknesses can be exploited.

Don't let this get personal people. Let the fun continue and let the sensible discussion continue. I am very interested in all the strategies that people are coming up with, but please, oh please, don't protest that it is the greatest strategy and would beat every other character in the game. This does two things.

1. Provokes other people
2. Proves your an arrogant and ignorant idiot.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:54 pm

I'm not here to defend Pat, but I think he don't wanted to be involved in personal battles. He has a very good knowledge of a Sorcerer and presented why it is (one of the) best classes. (Actually I have the same opinion). If you read through all of the other topics, you should realize, why he lost tolerancy in some of the post.
For strategy discussion: I will reply the Gesen Bow in the other thread.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 2:43 am

Vehemence - at last, some common sense. My comments haven't been the most thoughtful, blinded by single-minded desire to flame pat for his assumption, arrogance and curt (not to mention downright rude) dismissal of me.

@Kovi - losing his tolerance is unnacceptable. Did I lose my tolerance? No. I'm willing to tolerate even a moron like him.

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 9:10 pm

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
@Kovi - losing his tolerance is unnacceptable. Did I lose my tolerance? No. I'm willing to tolerate even a moron like him.

@GB- you're such a humanitarian.

BTW, since there are two threads similar in topic, plz everyone post in the "PC vs. PC" topic since it has more posts, though I doubt either one would "end the debate once and for all" as claimed.

Giles the Sorcerer · Post by **Giles the Sorcerer** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 11:09 pm

First, lets get one thing straight: any fight that involves the staff of the Magi can be summed up like this.

"If I had an item that was implemented with horrendous lack of thought and forsight, I could KICK YOUR PANSY ASS!"

Also bear in mind, a druid could wait for you to cast first and probably get a insect swarm off. There is also a level 2 or 3 version (Creeping Doom,) with 50% failure rate and lower casting time as well I think.

monks can use wands and swarm you with summoned monsters then run. Also, in a waiting game, they can simply wait out your spells then use a wand of horror, at which point you are ... ahem ... screwed. They will have such low saving throws, only direct damage spells with have an effect, and none are powerful enough to kill a monk before he or she can run and hide in shadows.

The situation is also ridiculously favourable for the sorcerer, why aren't any duals taking place right after the characters duke it out with Irenicus in the final battle or Adalon or Fiirkag?? why always after a full nights rest? or as soon as a sorcerer uses up his last spell?

if I repeated someone elses posts, I apologize, I didn't read the entire thing

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 8:58 am

Originally posted by Vehemence:
Secondly, stating that your post would end the class war was in my opinion, very arrogant. To add to that, you stated that in your opinion the sorcerer would beat every other class. This is no way to 'end' a discussion. If anything, you provoked a larger discussion.

I agree with you that it provoked a larger discussion. But that was not my intent.

I must not have been clear enough, or people have misread me, or people have not read me at all (or have omit some section of my text)... Part of the latest is certainly true because you accused me of wanting to end the debate by saying that the sorceror can defeat all the classes.

This is what I said (and I hope you'll remember it because the post was a mea culpa from the beginning to the end) :
(after acknowledging that Jesters, Paladins, dualed Fighter(or Rangers)/Clerics, and some other classes are opponents that the sorceror should not win against...)
"So there are a lots of paper for the scisor sorceror to cut, but there are some nasty rocks out there that can take it out with some ease. And that is fine, because a class that beats everyone should no longer be in the game."

For the rest, see the other thread.

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 12:15 pm

(Disclaimer) This is my opinion alone.

1. After having read all the strategy and counter strategies of sorcerers vs (x). It seems simple enough to me that the only non mage type classes that will defeat a well played PC sorcerer are the classes that can detect invisibility and fight at "same" time. (given the staff of magi ability).
2. There are lots of weapons out there that "could" hit through a stoneskin so stonekin would not be the only defence any sorcerer could depend on.
3. I dont know this maybe you can enlighten me...the only way a fighter could detect invis and fight at the same time would be to use the book of infinate spells...which means a one time cast. He must therefore kill the sorcerer before this spell runs out.
4. So my conclusion is simple if you can see the sorcerer...and attack(same time)...and have ungodly saves and magic resistance. you have one dead sorcerer.

Pat Bou · Post by **Pat Bou** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 12:22 pm

Originally posted by Genesis:
4. So my conclusion is simple if you can see the sorcerer...and attack(same time)...and have ungodly saves and magic resistance. you have one dead sorcerer.

I think you got it right because all the strategies that have been discussed while duelling against a sorceror are about trying to see it, trying to damage it (throught the stoneskin) and to protect from its magic (cloak of mirroring and high MR).

whitelight666 · Post by **whitelight666** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 12:27 pm

personnally i'd like to see how a flesh to stone/greater malison combo would work out. that could end a lot of battles, especially if you lowered MR beforehand