Alignment

blueguy · Post by **blueguy** » Fri Jun 07, 2002 2:19 pm

Originally posted by Lost One
DEATH TO THE GOOD DOERS! Who else agrees with me?

ooooooooh, you just hit a nerve there, how could you say that!? you might think im a clueless hapless player thats only being good for the powerful benefits, but truthfully THAT NOT WHY IM GOOD! im good because i have ethics and morals that i stand by, and because there will always be lost, helpless people in the world of faerun that will need the kind heart and helpful hand of a good-doer. Because i have no patience at all for evil people! all your crazy scheming and lying and... and EVIL! Once, ONCE, i felt curious and tried to be evil. by the second warning minsc gave me about being mean ot others, i couldn't take the guilt and loaded. and donated several thousand GP to the local church.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Jun 07, 2002 5:16 pm

@Lost One:
You're completely wrong, my friend. The point for a good
char is gaining power while not harming others.
There is ethic that guides and limits your choices!
For a REAL good char, the point may be gaining power to
PROTECT the weaker...

Though I'm back for a while to the "normal goody play", I've played
a lot through the game with a Neutral-SuperGood (female) Kensai/Mage,
who happened to be a "life preserver": when possible, she tried
to keep alive her enemies (much less with monsters though, or the game
would have been senseless....

).
So, more than once I skipped battles, or leaved there stunned or
scared people running around.
And I missed some good loot. Never taken the Answerer or the Staff of Ram
so far, just to say something....
Still, power may be obtained and this is fun!!!!!

And I guess you didn't know that NPC-X can become a force of GOOD!

blueguy · Post by **blueguy** » Fri Jun 07, 2002 5:52 pm

Originally posted by Littiz
For a REAL good char, the point may be gaining power to
PROTECT the weaker...

Right on, brotha! Power to the people!

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 4:43 am

So, more than once I skipped battles, or leaved there stunned

I've said this before, but that is a GREAT idea...playing through the game and trying to keep your kill count as low as possible. It'd call for some new and intelligent tactics and would be very rewarding, though not obviously in terms of xp

I mean the kill count in a normal run through is yowge...after Imoen rejoins the party, her kill count is normally around 30 within 8 hours, which is psychotic behaviour and she's supposed to be good...

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 7:44 am

Originally posted by kopywrite

I've said this before, but that is a GREAT idea...playing through the game and trying to keep your kill count as low as possible. It'd call for some new and intelligent tactics and would be very rewarding, though not obviously in terms of xp

I like it, too--pretty clever.

One of the Morrowind developers in fact created a healer character whose objective was to avoid taking life whenever possible, and used unarmed skill just to fatigue an opponent to the ground.

I suspect it would have been very time-consuming to create a BG2 that offered a truly evil path. So many more quests would have been required to get around those that currently had only a "good" conclusion. And one you sided several times with evil, you would no longer have been able to get back the eggs from the Dark Elves--the Silver Dragon wouldn't have trusted you. Many, many things would have required redoing.

In such situations, I remember what Brenda Garno, late of Sir-Tech, used to say about good, neutral and evil, and figure accordingly, instead of with the ridiculous AD&D alignment "philosophies:"

Good characters will help a little old lady across the street in heavy traffic.

Neutral characters will help her across if they have the time.

Evil characters will help her across--for a price.

Works a lot better in a game like BG2 than trying to play against the rules and probable outcome.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 11:20 am

Ahem Littiz

?

Indeed, it seems half of the forum consider me mad..

But kopy and fable understood something, thanx guys!

Roleplaying like this is really satisfying, you have more the
feeling of choosing YOUR path, AND being in complete control of
the situation!

Now I'm playing "normal" good, but sooner or later I'll have
another ride with my supergood kensymage

The only problem is that sometimes you have to cheat,
for example, the clone in Irenicus dungeon has a key,
I whack her unconscious, but the game won't let you grab the
key....
Or in the harpers plot, you have to KILL some apprentices to
gain access... I beated and spared them, assuming they would flee,
but the game makes the check on their DEATHS!!

So I added a pair of lines with SK, luckily I found them!

Rattman · Post by **Rattman** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 11:59 am

Good characters will help a little old lady across the treet in heavy traffic.

Neutral characters will help her across if they have the time.

Evil characters will help her across--for a price.

Lawful good: will help her no matter what

Neutral good: will help her if she looks a little like she needs it

Chaotic good: will help her and smite those who did not help her

Lawful neutral: will help her if she really needs it

True neutral: will help her if she deserves it

Chaotic neutral: will help her if he feels like it and has time

Lawful evil: will help her if there is something in it for them

Neutral evil: will watch and hope she gets hit by a car

Chaotic evil: will shover her in front of a car

i think i am correct here but i am not to sure on some of them

i am Chaotic neutral siding towards neutral evil according to this

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:16 pm

Originally posted by fable
Evil characters will help her across--for a price.

Then what do you call characters that kick her in front of a speeding bus?

mynamewasstolen · Post by **mynamewasstolen** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:36 pm

I missed alot.

I agree good is often evil... not always. The Keldorn quest is a good example.

However, the differcence does lie in your intentions and the actual result of your actions. You can have good intentions and still end up doing evil things (Anomen and Bohdi) or even have evil intentions and do good things.

I do overall agree with LostOne. Players rarely think about monsters as people. What happens when you kill an entire tribe of Kobolds? Mindflayers have families to. Taking up the quest to kill the Great Brain (or whatever it is called) is really an act of genocide. A truly good PC is like Littiz stated less interested in killing. Why? Because of what make a good character good. Often events are thrust upon them and they have to act inorder to prevent the needless destruction of those around them... like in the BG series or any comic book. This sense of them facing daunting odds for the betterment of others is why they are good.

Think about this character A and another character, named B, get lost at sea and have to get money to go home. Character A decides killing criminals and collecting the bounty on their heads is the best way to collect money. Character B gets a job pays taxes inputs money into the local economy and otherwise provides some nesicary, yet trivial, service to make money to get home.

Who is more good?

Making money is not nesicarily greedy. Becoming famous is not nesicarly prideful. Being a rock star doesn't make you evil.

Lost One · Post by **Lost One** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:21 pm

Originally posted by Littiz
You're completely wrong, my friend... Still, power may be obtained and this is fun!!!!!

Uhm...I see. Sometimes it makes me wonder how much 'fun' goody-my-shoes-are-clean characters have.

Originally posted by Littiz, again
I've played a lot through the game with a Neutral-SuperGood (female) Kensai/Mage, who happened to be a "life preserver"

I like your use of the past tense - "happened to be". Did she then happen to bend to the evil ways just to pick up (SPOILER) blackrazor.

I must admit, though, that the supergood technique does seem honest enough to deserve the label of goodyness. And a lot of it depends on your exact alignment and class:
eg: LG Paladin : hard to roleplay, you have to really consider your actions and see if they are good for everybody.
CG Ranger : It's mainly about survival and doing good no matter what the cost. eg. Drizzt never showed mercy to his enemies (unless there was a good excuse) and did good according to his 'feelings'.

Originally posted by fable
Works a lot better in a game like BG2 than trying to play against the rules and probable outcome.

True, the old lady theory works well. I've also thought of another good idea for RP in BG2. Let's say you have a mixed party of good & evil characters, whenever you feel like being greedy and killing somebody for a weapon, let Korgan (or equiv) be the leader and do it by himself without the help of good characters (neutrals may help). If you don't have a mixed align party, use neutrals to do the more 'evil' acts alone (CNs don't need a reason) or if in an all good party, put CGs in lead for more powerhungry actions. I've used this kind of rp from the beginning, especially when in dialogues..I've always responded using the voice of the NPC or PC who initiated the dialogue.
SLIGHT SPOILER

eg: even though my PC was really good and I wanted Anomen in the party..it just happened that I picked up Korgan first and accidentally put him in charge so that he was the first to walk nearby Anomen so that the dialogue was effectively between those two. Well, guess what, I roleplayed Korgan's attitude and bye bye Anomen, he got annoyed and left.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 12:50 am

Originally posted by mynamewasstolen
Korgan is pretty good. However Keldorn and Minsce beat him hands down.

Pardon me for saying so, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

Korgan is a Fighter, thus having the possibility to grandmaster in any weapon. He also have the Berserker kit, granting him great bonuses when enraged (and he gets more "rages" as he levels up). He has more HPs than any other NPC as well as excellent saving throws, thanks to high CON and the fact that he's a Dwarf. Equip him with Stonefire and Frostreaver, and neither Keldorn or Minsc would stand a chance. Please try it out before you disagree.

Onyx · Post by **Onyx** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 1:38 am

I've got to agree with Astafas.
Korgan can take down any of them two, anytime.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 1:48 am

Originally posted by mental_nomad
Hmmmmm would keldorn get his Holy Avenger sword and be able to summon deva?

Holy Avenger for sure, it doesn't matter as Korgan will have more attacks per round and a much lower THAC0, thus dealing out far more damage. The Summon Deva is a high level ability, which places that fight in the ToB forum. I'm pretty sure Korgan could handle it, though...

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:02 am

Originally posted by Astafas
The Summon Deva is a high level ability, which places that fight in the ToB forum. I'm pretty sure Korgan could handle it, though...

With WK etc, its quite easy IMO for characters to get over 3 mill xps in SoA -- even with quite a large party.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:17 am

Originally posted by kopywrite

With WK etc, its quite easy IMO for characters to get over 3 mill xps in SoA -- even with quite a large party.

Indeed. And WK, as well as high level abilities, are introduced by ToB.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:44 am

Originally posted by Astafas
Indeed. And WK, as well as high level abilities, are introduced by ToB.

Well yeah, but as WK can be accessed at any time during SoA...and the original cap can be passed in SoA even without going to WK...

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:55 am

I like your use of the past tense - "happened to be". Did she then happen to bend to the evil ways just to pick up *ITEM X*

I think Littiz was using the past tense as his 'neutralsupergood' character was from a while ago. At least I hope this is the case...

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:55 am

Originally posted by kopywrite

Well yeah, but as WK can be accessed at any time during SoA...and the original cap can be passed in SoA even without going to WK...

All this, as the high level abilities themselves, demand you have ToB installed. Period. But this is getting ridiculous, so why not take the discussion here if you want to... Will the high level abilities affect the outcome?