Neverwinter Nights: pretty much a dissapointment

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 11:51 am

I guess my expectations were a little too high. I have played Baldur's Gate, Tales of the Sword Coast, Baldur's Gate 2, Throne of Bhaal, Icewind Dale, and Heart of Winter all the way through to completion. The games listed above are the greatest games I have ever played. When I heard that Bioware was going to be making Neverwinter Nights years ago I began drooling over screenshots, artwork, previews, and class information.

I got the game as soon as it came to stores here yesterday and played it for about 8 hours to make sure I got enough of the experience to pass judgement.

I will start with the things I love about this game. It is BEAUTIFUL. The graphics are amazing as well as the maps that I have seen thus far. The story is EXCELLENT. I will give no spoilers but the story is well thought out and makes for a fun adventure. The 3rd Ed. rules are integrated well and are well documented in the manual as well as the character creation screen. The dialogs with NPCs have good voice overs and fit into the story and environment well. The radial menu is NEAT. As is the quick bar for using skills, feats, spells, and potions. The Shift+ and Ctrl+ are really neat additions and are very usefull. The journal is great and next to cosmetics is a copy/paste from BG2.

I know this is a terrible insult to the creaters at Bioware but this game reminds me more of Diablo 2 than Baldur's Gate 2. From what I have played so far the thought of having a party of adventurers is non-existant. You get one hetchman and have no control over his equipment or skills. You can't even control which target he/she attacks or what spells he/she casts. (there are some options in the radial menu to have your hetchman heal you, follow you, attack with melee or attack with ranged, ect. so there is some control over them but not much) The helper in NWN is almost exactly like the helper in Diablo 2 without having control over equipment. The lack of a controllable party is my biggest dissapointment. I was expecting this game to be like Baldur's Gate 2 with updated graphics, new 3rd Ed. rules, and a fresh new story. I was wrong.

The map feature is terrible. It is hard too see even when enlarged and doesn't have the ability to click on a destination on the map and have your avatar move there. You still have the ability to make notes on the map using pins which is awesome. The map also has many shops/important places already labeled which is also helpfull.

The avatar himself looks pretty neat but the clothing/armor doesn't. I spent quite a bit of time trying on different armors and outfits and was pretty dissapointed. The studded doesn't look like studded, the chain doesn't look like chain, and the mage robes look like armor. Almost every outfit made me think of Jon Irenicus in BG2 (the artwork of him anyway) as it all looks like that pointy elven armor.

The load times are going to be a problem for some people. Every other door you walk through has to load a new map. Though I have a fast computer and didn't have long to wait, it was still a LOT of loading.

I realize that alot of my observations are premature. I haven't played the game all the way to the end but most of my above critisisms are about the game engine itself and are not likely going to change, though I could be wrong.

These are just my honest observations and critisisms. Please don't get on this thread and flame me about how stupid I am or how I just don't know anything. If you have corrections or arguments about what I said please post them. I welcome other opinions and suggestions. It is possible that I am wrong about many of the things above and if you correct me I might learn a feature of the game I haven't discovered yet.

For now, I am going to keep playing till i get my $60 worth or Icewind Dale 2 comes out. I sincerely hope it is the former.

-Bishop

KaaZe · Post by **KaaZe** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 2:49 pm

I will agree with you on some of the things you mention. Yup, armor is alittle anoying and it looks very "drawed" compared to the rest of the game. It bugged me alot when I first started.. now I hardly see it anymore.. I will how ever stop at wearing fully red colored leather amor..

Hechmen.. dont really like that aspect much either... No random dialog popup.. just runs around hitting what ever is closet to them. I miss more control over them alot.. but they will not be a part of the multiplayer experience, so I semi ignore them for now.. get the theif, if your not a thief yourself, the game is a pain in the butt

seraphim · Post by **seraphim** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 3:02 pm

actually, bishop, i think you have some valid concerns. i am growing a bit weary of hearing my henchman thief tell me he can pick that lock 13 times before he does. even so, i am still thinking that this is a GREAT game. i do wish they had decreased the loads even more (dungeon siege and their nonexistent loads are likely to be the wave of the future--that aspect of ds was awesome). still, i am really enjoying this and see it as a next step in RPG evolution. the avatar i got used to--however, can we go back and re edit or modify our avatar or is what we choose set in stone, at least in the single player mode?
i also am get used to the camera angle and the fact taht i cannot pan up, which makes me pan out until i can see everything nearbyu--which slows my system and the game down. blech. anyhoo, again, these are fist impressions. however, the greatest thing that i have seen thus far is the fact that you can build your own module and play it. right then!!!! they really scored big with this aspect as it is great to be able to test out your module right then and there withoput waiting for the next version to come along--hint hint DS!! have to give them BIG points for that. considering teh wait, they have delivered on the DM and building aspects, what the game is supposed to focus on anyway. anyhoo, just some thoughts

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 3:26 pm

I'll agree on some points here as well. The avatar and armor looks are not that big of a deal, looks aren't everything after all. My biggest complain about this game, or atleast the single player, is the henchmen, there are too few of them (6 I believe) and the fact that I have no controll over what they wear, and what spells they memorize makes them not all that fun. And the fact that the magic using henchmen just waist their spells on the first thing they see makes them useless (I mean I had Linu waist a flame strike on a weak skeleton.) I don't agree with Bishop about the map feature I think it's very usefull to be able to have a map out while you run around. The fact that you can't can't click on the map to move to that point is not that big of a deal, BG2 didn't have that either untill a few patches after it was released.

This game is not perfect like BG and BG2 were, but it's still a damn good game, and I still haven't tried the multiplayer.

Raistlin · Post by **Raistlin** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:07 pm

I think it's quite clear since the production date that what makes NWN a great game is the multi-player experience which you haven't had before .If you just judge the game on single-player basis you will be surely be mistaken .

"Flexibility" my friend .. Remember this word . When you will be able to design your character's suit , create campaigns just like pen and paper style , model your favorite monster , swing your sword or cast your magic againts a Player. The game gives you this great power which you can develop your own game . I am quite sure that you are aware of all this but a coment like "dissapointment" is abit harsh since you haven't explored %1 of the game .

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:18 pm

Originally posted by Raistlin
I think it's quite clear since the production date that what makes NWN a great game is the multi-player experience which you haven't had before .If you just judge the game on single-player basis you will be surely be mistaken .

No, not mistaken. It's simply that some people prefer or enjoy equally a singleplayer experience, and NWN was released to be perceived both as a standalone and multiplayer product. Two different experiences. Perceptions that either one is lacking are valid, given sufficient reasons. Being a strong multiplayer game does not make NWN a strong singleplayer game, and vice versa, IMO.

Raistlin · Post by **Raistlin** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:42 pm

" A multi-player revolution ." is one of the slogans of NWN .

" NWN will be playable as single player aswell " is another ..

According to this
Which part do you build your expectations on ?

Ask your self the most innovative thing about NWN and you will understand why and to serve which purpose it's released .

There can be some parts you may not like in the game , and i am sure that there are parts in BG series you hate about . But that doesn't make BG a "disappointment" same thing goes for NWN .

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:09 pm

Originally posted by Raistlin
" A multi-player revolution ." is one of the slogans of NWN .

" NWN will be playable as single player aswell " is another ..

According to this
Which part do you build your expectations on ?

I pay no more attention to PR claptrap for NWN than I did when I read--

"A revolution in gaming" --for Ultima: Ascension, and

"A roleplaying experience like no other" --for Diablo 2.

Or are these "slogans" not PR, but drawn from reviews? I've read tons of bad reviews, and reviews where a single remark, taken out of context, can give false weight to a reviewer's impressions. No thanks; I'll ignore the hype, and go with what I can tell, both from Infogrammes internal reps, and my own reactions to the product. I know for a fact that NWN is being marketed in retail stores as both a standalone and multiplayer game. It has an enormous amount of time, ingenuity and personnel invested in the standalone module. I am not convinced that NWN is deliberately sacrificing the standalone enthusiast, but providing a dual experience for two kinds of players--or even one: the standalone player who wants to create modules they can trade with their friends.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 1:47 am

While it is true that the main focus of NwN will be the mulitplayer part it is also a singleplayer game, and some people will be drawn to the games singleplayer part (due to the success of BG/BG2 etc) and jugde on that part also.

There is no right way or wrong way to jugde a computergame unless you do it from your own expectations.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 5:04 am

I might be waaay off-base here (don't have the game to check

), but aren't Henchmen in multiplayer as well? If so, imagine five PCs standing their ground to withstand a charge while five henchmen abandon their positions and charge forward.

Rattman · Post by **Rattman** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:41 am

the "main" bad thing i hear about is the lack of henchman interactions and full control of them

well gosh golly call the police they are not zombies

i agree that you should be able to give them better armour and the likes but them doing there own thing is not so bad it is more realistic and if you have played Fallout/Fallout 2 you can see there it can still be a good game

in retrospect most people who played BG/BG2 ended up soloing anyway so the game sould still be good

i can't wait untill thursday when i am suppost to get it

how will i contain my excitment (in a biscuit tin?)

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:03 am

Originally posted by Rattman
the "main" bad thing i hear about is the lack of henchman interactions and full control of them

well gosh golly call the police they are not zombies

@Rattman, no need to bellitle those who differ in opinion from you.

As Bishop said, "These are just my honest observations and critisisms." And this is a board that wishes to encourage an honest expression of opinion. There are two ways such honesty can be stopped: by limiting the kinds of opinions that can be held, and by alllowing flaming of those who hold different opinions. I've seen too many boards where people who differ from a given perspective about a game or issue are simply shouted and insulted down. GB's not like that, and I'm glad of it.

Bishop specifically said that, "There are some options in the radial menu to have your hetchman heal you, follow you, attack with melee or attack with ranged, ect. so there is some control over them but not much." So clearly he was aware that henchmen aren't zombies. He just didn't think much of the options that NWN allows. That's his right. Personally, I tend to share a bit of his sense of disappointment that you lack control over what spells a henchman can use, or what enemy they'll attack. As a resuilt, a strong element of strategic planning (one of the fun things in IWD, PS:T and the BG series) is lacking.

For example, if I'm an archer and I"ve got a barbarian henchman with me, I can concentrate on taking out that cackling enemy wizard with the bad hair in the back row. But what if I'm playing a druid in wereform, with a sorcerer henchman? Sure, my assistant will cast magic missiles--at a nearby enemy. But he'll ignore someone in the back who's casting something really large and nasty. Even Ultima VI, which first offered this kind of "generalized combat AI" in battle, provided more options (attack nearest, attack largest, attack furthest, attack weakest, retreat, wait).

i agree that you should be able to give them better armour and the likes but them doing there own thing is not so bad it is more realistic and if you have played Fallout/Fallout 2 you can see there it can still be a good game

Bishop isn't saying it's a bad game, is he? Reread his comments. He said it was *a disappointment.* In other words, he's completely ignoring the issue of judging the game, in favor of explaining his personal reactions to it. What's more, if he wants to say it's a bad game, that's his perspective, and he's entitled to it provided he doesn't insult anybody else while stating it. You're in turn allowed to disagree with him, but it helps if you at least understand what he's saying, first.

As for the "realistic" argument, I personally have a problem buying that, and I've not heard any of the developers claim they limited your ability to give or take items from henchmen because of "realism." The reason that was claimed by them in interviews was balance--that's to say, the level of difficulty they wanted to create. They didn't want the PC giving magical items to henchmen, creating a powerful assistant like the party NPCs in Bioware's other CRPGs.

in retrospect most people who played BG/BG2 ended up soloing anyway so the game

How do you know in what style people who have bought the game played it? Even in a dedicated forum like GB's, very few people discuss or have any interest in BG/BG2 soloing: check out the threads in the archives as proof of this. And if a board for fanatics demonstrates that, it seems reasonable that those who are less involved in the game would be still less likely to pursue soloing.

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:43 am

So the single-player is a bit of a disappointment. I'm not too worried, since I already expected the major concerns expressed--lack of control over henchmen and no party interactions, or party for that matter.

I never really expected those aspects of NwN to be great. Basically, I've been looking forward to the multi-player aspect all along. To me, the single-player module has always just been viewed as practice before going on-line and really playing the game. So, my hopes for NwN are still very high.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:12 am

As Fable said:
Be nice to each other and respect different oppions

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:14 am

in retrospect most people who played BG/BG2 ended up soloing anyway so the game

The only people who soloed in BG were powergamers, and while I'm sure there are alot of them, I don't think they are the majority. The majority of people who played CRPGs played them with a party, for the fun that it provides. Now maybe I'm wrong here but if you look at Biowares record with CRPGs, and that's a pretty damn good record (BG, BG2, PS:T, IWD), you will see atleast one common thing in all of those games and that is that all of them had a party that you could fully control, so it's not a big surprise that many people who were waiting for this game expected to have a party, and were dissapointed when all they got was their henchmen. Now with all that said I will repeat what I stated previously that even with this flaw i still think this game rocks.

smass · Post by **smass** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:25 am

Average Joe - you are right on - and Fable I understand the problems concerns that all of the folks have expressed. No - this game in not Baldurs Gate. Been there-done that. The multiplayer experience is the key to this game. The henchman issue is frustrating - but when you are adventuring with human allies it will be no worry. That being said here are some observations from a big RPG/Baldurs fan with 20+ hours in on NWN:

- The combat is very satisfying - the ability to parry and use different power and sneak attacks has been implemented very well - as opposed to the Baldurs Gate "walk up and bash the s out them" approach.

- the implementation of 3rd edition rules is just brilliant. You can roleplay your character to perfection with all of the options. Basically every class has great potential and there are no stinkers.

- Quests and the main storyline are interesting and varied. Definately enough to keep me interested.

- Graphics are terrific. I have a Athlon XP1700 with a two year old 64MB Geforce 2 card - Game runs very smooth at 1024x768. NO CRASHES IN over 20 hours of play. Not saying there are not issues with this game - My experience has been flawless however.

- I to look at the single player game as a "training run" to get used to the game. The possibilities for user mods like Argyle and others have the potential to make this the most varied and expansive roleplaying experience for the computer. I know I sound like a Bioware PR man - but after playing with the toolset for a while I am excited by the possiblities.

The topic of thread is "NWN a dissapointment" You are entitled to your opinions. If looked at as a sequel to Baldurs Gate and as a single player only experience - I may agree with you. As a stand alone achievement - I would argue that non of us have yet scratched the surface of the this games depth and replayability.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:27 am

Originally posted by Ares2382

The only people who soloed in BG were powergamers, and while I'm sure there are alot of them, I don't think they are the majority. <snip>

This is a generalisation that I feel is to harsh. You have no way of knowing anything like this.
And I'm most certanly sure that people could get offended by that statment.

Be thoughtfull when posting, pls.

--------------------

GameBanshee - Make your gaming scream
Neverwinter Nights @ GameBanshee
Forum rules

archerknight · Post by **archerknight** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 12:22 pm

I have to agree w Fable. Blasting someone because they have a different opinion really brings down the forum. You can say you disagree without coming across as hostile.

Concerning the lack of control of henchmen: Maybe it would help to think of them like you would another player in a multiplayer game. You would not have any control over their actions. Perhaps that is what the creators intended. I haven't got the game yet so i'm not sure how bad they are.

KaaZe · Post by **KaaZe** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 12:59 pm

I agree, I love this game. Sure the henchmen are not as much fun as NPC in baldurs.. still totally love the single player... I cant put it away

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 2:33 pm

So how's MP? Is it slow? Thats the main factor for me if I'm going to buy this game. When I come back from vacation I'll see where everybody stands with this game and then think about buying it.

I had been planning for so long. I hope its worth it, or I should have gone and got Dungeon Siege or Medal of Honor.