World Cup 2002

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 3:38 am

Unbelievable.
Simply unbelievable.
What I've seen this morning surpasses anything I could have imagined.
Now I'm curious to hear what all those people who insulted me
have to say.

One word: corruption.
This is what I've seen today, what I simply suspected yesterday.
Now you can flame me, you can insult me, you can call me sore loser.
But now that Spain suffered the same fate of Italy, even worse
in some manner, I know I was right.
Spain has been KILLED by the referees in order to let Korea pass.
Now, if you know just a little football, you know that this is what
happened today.
TWO absolutely regular goals invalidated to Spain.
TWO. Again.
Nothing could even be taken as a pretest to invalidate them.
With all the precedents with Italy, they did it nonetheless,
OPENLY, they don't even worry about concealin' this anymore.
The only thing they couldn't do, was to make the goal for them,
so they went to penalties.

KNOW THIS: Germany will have to face the same treatment.
I hope they could score 10 goals so that the referees can do
nothing.
But really this world cup made me sick.
Football has died this year.

@Tamerlane: it is italian TELEVISION who wants money back.
They say that having paid millions dollars to FIFA for the
transmissions, FIFA has to GUARANTEE regular matches.
They're held responsible if the referees are incompetent, or
who knows, currupted.
Of course I too considered this too much, probably only a move
to create some precedents and some changes.
But today, after having seen what happened to Spain, I hope
spanish television will do the same thing.

Flame me as you want guys, I spoke the Truth.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 3:48 am

Originally posted by Littiz
@Tamerlane: it is italian TELEVISION who wants money back.
They say that having paid millions dollars to FIFA for the
transmissions, FIFA has to GUARANTEE regular matches.
They're held responsible if the referees are incompetent, or
who knows, currupted.
Of course I too considered this too much, probably only a move
to create some precedents and some changes.
But today, after having seen what happened to Spain, I hope
spanish television will do the same thing.

Flame me as you want guys, I spoke the Truth.

So it was the media corps, I also heard that Pele joined the ranks of those critising the quality of officials at this world cup.

As for people arguing with each other. I'd be disappointed if that happens. As I'd hate to see this thread closed...

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 4:55 am

First...it is sour loser, sore looser...dont know what that would be.
Portugal, then Italy and now Spain. All complain about the referee when they lose. I think it is bad, accept it, thats all you can do. Sure there has been some controversy and things always favour the home nation. They have the crowd support and it effects the referees no doubt. I have never seen Italians complain when it has favoured them and believe me it has... I remember Davis Cup matches back in the 70's against Italy... every ace was a let...
Okay I wont go on about that.
Just accept it.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 5:05 am

Originally posted by Bruce Lee
First...it is sour loser, sore looser...dont know what that would be.
Portugal, then Italy and now Spain. All complain about the referee when they lose. I think it is bad, accept it, thats all you can do. Sure there has been some controversy and things always favour the home nation. They have the crowd support and it effects the referees no doubt. I have never seen Italians complain when it has favoured them and believe me it has... I remember Davis Cup matches back in the 70's against Italy... every ace was a let...
Okay I wont go on about that.
Just accept it.

To add to this..it's a game. If a team was guarranteed to win, why would people watch it?

As to the WC. I was pulled two ways...wanting the US to win, while hopeing the US loss. Why? Because I could see the complaints coming if the US won.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 5:13 am

Originally posted by Weasel
To add to this..it's a game. If a team was guarranteed to win, why would people watch it?

Your spot on my friend.

I think a lot more credit needs to be given to teams like South Korea and Senegal and Turkey. Instead of focusing on the negatives being generated.

And on a minor note, I enjoyed watching the US play, possibly the most underated team for the past couple of years.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 5:24 am

I have been thinking about the way teams play, someone said that all the defensive teams like Sweden , England, Italy are now out. I agree that Sweden played very defensively against Argentina and maybe in the group stage as a whole, and England did aswell, but they had to against superior opposition like Argentina. They got through the group and then hade to win matches. And that is a difference, same for Italy really.
I think Sweden played their best match against Senegal, it certainly was the best to watch. England got an early goal against Denmark and then they could rely on counterattacks. They got the first goal against Brazil and started to defend, but then the Brasilian goals late in the first half and early in the second meant they had to start attacking and could not make the switch.
I think that it is a big difference in playing matches in the group stage and in the knockout stage where you need to win. In the group stage you can sometimes play for a draw and maybe both teams are happy with a draw.
In the knockout stage you need to be able to switch from defending to attacking and not all teams can do that. Especially not if you have made a defensive substitution to defend a lead.
I am probably just rambling on here but what I am trying to say is that in the WC you need to have a team that is both good at defending a lead and to attack to win.
Brazil has proved the best at that sofar, they proved against England that they are very good at defending a lead, and they proved that they could come back from 1-0 down.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 5:32 am

@Bruce Lee: I agree with you. And let's not forget that the pre-favorites all rely much or players who have played a huge amount of games for their clubs during the season, whereas the underdog nations have many rested players. Physiological factors like injuries and psychological factors like fatigue and saturation also plays a part in how players are performing.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:11 am

Originally posted by Littiz
Unbelievable.
Simply unbelievable.
What I've seen this morning surpasses anything I could have imagined.
Now I'm curious to hear what all those people who insulted me
have to say.

One word: corruption.
This is what I've seen today, what I simply suspected yesterday.
Now you can flame me, you can insult me, you can call me sore loser.
But now that Spain suffered the same fate of Italy, even worse
in some manner, I know I was right.
Spain has been KILLED by the referees in order to let Korea pass.
Now, if you know just a little football, you know that this is what
happened today.
TWO absolutely regular goals invalidated to Spain.
TWO. Again.
Nothing could even be taken as a pretest to invalidate them.
With all the precedents with Italy, they did it nonetheless,
OPENLY, they don't even worry about concealin' this anymore.
The only thing they couldn't do, was to make the goal for them,
so they went to penalties.

KNOW THIS: Germany will have to face the same treatment.
I hope they could score 10 goals so that the referees can do
nothing.
But really this world cup made me sick.
Football has died this year.

<snip>
Flame me as you want guys, I spoke the Truth.

I'm not flaming you. I'm disagreeing. If there is a conspiracy, I would have guessed that Japan also would have benefited. The lineman that called on Spain's goal today is clearly incompetent, but when it to jersey pullings and roughing in the goal area I think the referees should take a harsh stance. Spain's golden goal, however, was clearly a valid goal.

If there is a conspiracy, I would like to see some evidence besides the fact that both Italy and Spain had lousy referee desicions and that the games were consecutive. Nothing in the game between South Korea and Spain proves anything in the game between South Korea and Italy. It may feel that way, but taken without other evidence it is just two incidents, seemingly alike, happening in sequence that can have had any number of causes. One such cause could be that the referees were bribed, or perhaps they couldn't handle the pressure from the audience, another cause could be that they need prescription glasses, yet another could be that they made bad calls by mistake. There are plenty of other feasible explanations and there is nothing to support one before another. If you want to see some really awful refereeing, watch a rerun of the Germany - Cameroon game. Or have a look at the England - Brazil game. Turkey - Brazil is another example. If you just look back through this thread, you'll find plenty of examples not related to South Korea, Spain, Italy or any other specific nations and going pretty much either way.

The referees in this cup have been bad. The linemen have been downright awful. I sincerely hope Fifa will take strong measures to solve this problem, but like Mr. Sleep keeps telling me, Fifa directives seem to last for one game. The Fifa directive on dives and shirt pullings have not been enforced evenly throughout the WC, which really annoys me. In the England - Brazil game, Beckham took a dive, Scoles also, Rivaldo was acting out death scenes all over the place. Mexico - Italy was an awful game that at times more looked like the players of both teams were trying to undress the other team rather than play ball. Totti got booked in that game also - for diving. Perhaps he should try staying on his feet a few games to increase his credibility...

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:21 am

Originally posted by Bruce Lee
Brazil has proved the best at that sofar, they proved against England that they are very good at defending a lead, and they proved that they could come back from 1-0 down.

I've also noted the complaint against defensive tactics, but Brazil showed the most perfect defensive style sofar in the England - Brazil game. Simply brilliant. Roberto Carlos holding the ball and not attacking even when he had a clear shot on the English goal, staying in Englands half keeping the ball from the English but not taking chances in an offense. That is how a defensive should be played.

I think that what makes Brazil so brilliant is that they _do_ know how to play boring, european style, defensive football when they have to, but they also have a great offensive. They also do not back down on a 1 - 0 lead like most of the other teams have. To me, it looks like England are aiming for the same style but have a few more years to go. In 2006, I will watch England with great interest (if I don't loose interest in football by then).

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:13 am

Results are in. Another golden goal decision...

Kameleon · Post by **Kameleon** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:13 am

Poor Senegal...

Turkey did play better than Senegal in this match IMO.
Senegal weren't up to their usual standard at all.

EDIT: Wow Ysh, you were even quicker than me on the golden goal

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:17 am

Originally posted by Kameleon

Poor Senegal...
Turkey did play better than Senegal in this match IMO.
Senegal weren't up to their usual standard at all.

EDIT: Wow Ysh, you were even quicker than me on the golden goal

I agree...

LOL!

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:18 am

Golden Goal!

Congrats, to Turkey! Congrats to Raistlin.

Though I would have wanted Senegal to win

, the better team won.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:23 am

Turkey played a lot better game and I think they deserved to win.

Now they rematch vs. Brazil. Its going to be a close one.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:34 am

Dammit, I shouldn't have looked into this thread, Swedish TV doens't show the Senegal-Turkey game until 7pm!

Well, I guess I'll go out with some friends then instead of watching the football.

It is sad Senegal is out

I'm however glad to hear Turkey won fairly. Senegal has done a great tournament, much better than anyone expected, and I hope they are pleased with their performance anyway

Congrats to Turkey and Raistlin!

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:58 am

World Cup Theory...

...this looks interesting...

Here's some world cup theory on who will win.

Brazil last won the world cup in 1994. Before that they won it in 1970. Add 1970 and 1994, it equals 3964.

Germany last won in 1990. Before that they won in 1974. Add 1990 and 1974, it equals 3964.

Argentina last won the world cup in 1986. Before that they won it in 1978. Add 1978 and 1986, it equals 3964.

So going by this logic, The winner of the 2002 world cup is the same as the 3964 - 2002 = 1962 world cup. The 1962 world cup was won by Brazil.

But then of course, it should be based on the last year won...

Leonardo · Post by **Leonardo** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:06 am

On the Spain-Korea thing...

I agree with Littiz that something very strange is happening. Aginst Italy and that offside, today with the two disallowed goals AND the penalty kick that Joaquin lost. The Korean goalie was almost two steps beyond what is allowed. The referee should have called it and asked for another kick.

On Brazilian defense...

Roberto Carlos kept the ball on the English side because he knew the Brazilian defensemen are terrible. Roque Junior, Lucio and Edimilson are not Team Brazil material; not when so many good players were left here.

Kameleon · Post by **Kameleon** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 12:11 pm

The pyramid theory

Mah - ROFL I love these random theories, they give me such a laugh...this was one put forward here in England for France '98:

1966 - England won
..1970 - Brazil won
....1974 - West Germany won
......1978 - Argentina won
........1982 - Italy won
......1986 - Argentina won
....1990 - West Germany won (do you see where this is going yet?)
..1994 - Brazil won
1998 - England are going to win!!!

Yeah right...

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 2:22 pm

I believe the whole competition is corrupt.

I was for Korea, but I think they are getting "helped" into the final. Just look at how many goals againt them got canceled! Guus Hiddink did a grand job training them, but without help from the refuries. They'd be long out of the tournament.

The guy from FIFA (forgot his name) should be kicked out...

My thoughts:

Final: Brasil vs Korea.
Brasil wins...

(they get helped out by the refurees too

The host country makes the final, meaning Korea, and brasil, a big football country, will win it... for good ol' times sake

)

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 4:52 pm

@Bruce Lee: really, you don't know who you are accusing.
I was a Ferrari supporter, and ceased to support them
when Barrichello was ordered to let Schumacher pass.
You're accusing ME now of being a sour loser.
You don't know what your talkin about.
I just want to see a clean competition, where men try to be valiant.
If I was a sour loser, I would have stopped watching the matches
after Italy went out.
But NOW I WILL stop. I've seen enough.

I don't believe in coincidencies.
They happen in life of individuals, and they're even astonishing
at times.
But where MONEY, and large numbers of people are involved,
"strange" sequence of events are NEVER casual.
There are dirty affairs below these things that keep happening.
Those referees and linesmen lose their name, probably won't ever
direct again, but go back home with a bag full of money.
I keep saying, WHY do they keep this sistem?
It's not basket, or tennis, where the points scored are always
many and many.
Here matches end 1-0, 2-0, 2-1....
Referee + linesmen can really DECIDE which team has to win.
This is WHY all remains this way. They can effectively gain control.

-The first goal invalidated to Spain was an AUTOGOAL.
Never seen before...... invalidatin' an autogoal!
-The GOLDEN goal then was the most regular goal ever.
My eyes still blink. The REAL scandal today.
I don't know I how would have felt if I was spanish. No.. I know!!
-And I forgot to mention the offside after that episode...
The attacker was alone and the position was regular!
But for the n-th time, another inesistent offside was called.

Do you know what I discovered today?
The VICE-PRESIDENT OF FIFA is South-Korean..... a mighty and
influent person!!!
I don't need to know more. This is probably the biggest affair
they've ever had in Korea.
You're free to consider all of this a matter of mistakes and
luck, but I think it's only a matter of WISDOM here to understand...

My bet? They will try (till possible, of course) to help Korea
once more. Then at the final, they'll let the thing clean,
and they'll save the appeareance.
Maybe they'll choose Collina as referee.
This unless great polemics stop them earlier!
But fun would be to see 7 goals cancelled to Korea at the final!!!!!!!

Sure as hell, I won't witness this anymore, I'm sick of it,
as all italians (many opinionists say the Cup should be suspended),
and I'm sick to have to defend me and my people only 'cause we said
the TRUTH before the others.