What is your favorite backstabbing class?

[Impaler987]

Hey, my first post. It's a poll; I wanted to ask what everyone's favorite class is that is able to backstab.

I judged on overall ability of the character for my choice, not simply the best backstab. For me it was close between the stalker and the assassin/fighter, but I went with the stalker. The stalker has high HP, druid spells (which CAN be useful, Armor of Faith and Insect Swarm anyone?), a very useful haste spell at level 12, and contrary to what some may believe, his backstab is very useful (it kills most mages in ToB). The assassin/fighter can fight as well or better than the stalker and has a better backstab (with poison + dualling at a minimum of level 13 for a 5x at least), but can't last nearly as long in a fight due to a rogue's HP base, and can't cast those nifty little protections and supports.

Single-class assassin? Great backstab, but too weak, has to run or quaff a potion afterwards.
Fighter-thief multi-class? A good choice overall (and cheesy, but I don't use UAI in that fashion b/c I don't believe it should be used like that, you know what I mean). But seriously, I like how they progress both as a fighter and as a thief simultaneously and infinitely.
Berserker or kensai/thief are overrated, IMO. The main attraction is of course the huge backstab, but that's all they have, really. They don't approach the fighting potential of a stalker, multi-class fighter/thief, or assassin/fighter.

[gnomethingy]

I like the assasin fighter, poison is great.. its usefull in any fight even if your not backstabbing.
The Assasin fighter can attain grand mastery in weapons, wich makes him offensivly better than the stalker combined with poison and the ability to use it at range I think he is a more usefull all round class..

Ill agree, stalkers are harder to bring down but they lack the essential offensive power, only two *'s in any weapon, a lesser backstab modifier and no poison

If I make an assasin fighter, I spend points in set traps to get some handy snares. Placing minimal points in hide and move becouse of the massive increase alot of easy to find items give to this skill, +items / potions of invis are a more powerfull alternative

So If I make an assasin fighter his pros are..
Snares
Higher backstabb modifier
Poison
Gand mastery

A stalker cant effectivly replicate any of these skills, and given that a backstabber spends alot of time invisible in any fight... more hps dont help much

Those are my thoughs

[Mirk]

I go for kensai-thief here, and do so AFTER i have actually played ALL of the combos you put on the poll.

here's why:

- to hit/damage modifiers of a kensai make agreat addition to general grand mastery bonuses of pther fighters

- the ability to maximise your damage by Kai is extra-useful in those must-be-killed-by-one-hit-or-else opponents, and the K-T is the only one capable of doing it

- poison is needed only versus spellcasters, which tend to die right away anyway, and the effect can be emulated by weapons (bleeding/poison damage)

- UAI (even in non-cheesy version, i.e. no armour) lets u use scrolls/items/etc that can effectively create any protective effect, as well as maximise the attack capability (tenser's transformation, simalcarum, etc)


i admit, there are some benefits to the other combos listed in the poll. in fact, in terms of fun/roleplaying/PnP reminding expierience, some classes suit me far better than the K-T.

[Bad Karma]

Originally posted by Impaler987
The stalker has high HP, druid spells (which CAN be useful, Armor of Faith and Insect Swarm anyone?), a very useful haste spell at level 12, and contrary to what some may believe, his backstab is very useful (it kills most mages in ToB).

Were you trying to find out people's opinions about which class has the best backstab or which is the best class that possesses backstab? If it is the former, then the stalker's druid spells have no relevance.

[Impaler987]

Originally posted by Bad Karma
Were you trying to find out people's opinions about which class has the best backstab or which is the best class that possesses backstab? If it is the former, then the stalker's druid spells have no relevance.

Nope, I suggested the latter. Sorry if I didn't make that a little clearer the first time.

[Bad Karma]

I see. Nevermind then

[Impaler987]

Originally posted by gnomethingy
I like the assasin fighter, poison is great.. its usefull in any fight even if your not backstabbing.
The Assasin fighter can attain grand mastery in weapons, wich makes him offensivly better than the stalker combined with poison and the ability to use it at range I think he is a more usefull all round class..

Ill agree, stalkers are harder to bring down but they lack the essential offensive power, only two *'s in any weapon, a lesser backstab modifier and no poison

If I make an assasin fighter, I spend points in set traps to get some handy snares. Placing minimal points in hide and move becouse of the massive increase alot of easy to find items give to this skill, +items / potions of invis are a more powerfull alternative

So If I make an assasin fighter his pros are..
Snares
Higher backstabb modifier
Poison
Gand mastery

A stalker cant effectivly replicate any of these skills, and given that a backstabber spends alot of time invisible in any fight... more hps dont help much

Those are my thoughs

Hmm, yes, assassin/fighters are very versatile and customizable indeed (like I said at the beginning, I like both stalkers and assassin/fighters a million times more than the other classes on the list, these two are powerful yet not cheesy).

I personally don't go for traps at all (personal preference), but I like to focus on Detect Illusion, easily the most underrated thief ability, because with a 100% in that you literally free your mage or cleric from memorizing "True Sight."

I'd have to disagree on the Grand Mastery part though, b/c there's not much difference between Grand Mastery and Specialization, unless you use the patch, which I don't. Actually, even if I did, I prefer Specialization in multiple weapons for more versatility and choice. I've never relied on Grand Mastery even as an assassin/fighter b/c I prefer to dual-wield a lot, which takes 3 extra points to do if you're an assassin/fighter (stalkers only need to spend 1 point to get their natural 2 points in this ability up to 3), and then I like to specialize in a whole bunch of different sword types (long sword, katana, scimitar). The night-and-day difference is between Proficient and Specialized. I believe what does make the assassin/fighter better offensively than the stalker is the poison, as you pointed out.

Almost depends on playing style, I guess. Personally I like the stalker b/c I can use him practically as a "stealth tank", backstabbing the mage or most P-I-T-A enemy, appearing in the middle of everyone, then fighting everyone else while party reinforcements arrive (if the stalker doesn't kill them all first, which he often does, man, Celestial Fury is awesome). In overwhelming fights against large groups of powerful enemies I find that with my assassin/fighter I use elusion tactics (running/hiding, quaffing invisibility potions) a bit more often than w/ my stalker due to the lower HP.

[Mirk]

backstabbing the mage or most P-I-T-A enemy

what's a PITA (i fail to follow the connection to the middle-eastern bread thingies...)?

[Bad Karma]

Originally posted by Mirk


what's a PITA (i fail to follow the connection to the middle-eastern bread thingies...)?

Think of something that's really difficult...first word="pain"

[gnomethingy]

Grand mastery grants you + 3 to hit and a + 5 to damage, while being Specialized only grants you + 1 to hit and + 3 to damage
Add to that the assasins innate+1 to hit and damage and you have

Assasin, +4 to hit +6 to damage
stalker, +1 to hit +3 to damage


Im sorry, but I really fail to see how this isnt relevant

In multiple mage circomstances its very possible using a bow or darts and improved haste to poison three or four mages before they get there protections up.

I think what the assasin looses in hp's he makes up for in attack and damage, while the stalker can use a 'large' weapon such as celestial fury or crom and still dispense alot of damage.. the assasin can use a smaller / faster or inferior weapon and still acheive the same dmg only at a faster rate or freeing up better weapons for the true tanks

[Mirk]

@ bad carma:
*scratching his head wis really dumb face* yeap, not to bright on my part... guess was hungry...

@ gnomethingy:
un-baldurashed grandmastery does not give +5 damage, i think it's +3/+3, max +4.

your point is valid, though: i agree that vs. several spellcasters assassin's poison on darts/daggers/arrows is more effective. this is not due to his damage modifiers, though.

[gnomethingy]

Fair enough, But considering im arguing the characters use from my experiance and I DO use the grand mastery fix....

: P on you, becouse I didnt say the dart / bow effectivness came from more + to damage, I said as you do.. its the poison

The aditional + to damage gained by the fix allows you to use *weaker* weapons to the same effect, allowing other less proficent chars the more powerfull weapons

[Mirk]

i dislike the assassin-fighter because he represents the classic dual-classing dilemma too well: dual early, regain the abilities early, dual late, "milk" the first class for the bonuses.

now, as we are adressing the backstab here, i consider the x7 multiplier to be one of the most important benefits here. this means i have to dual late (lvl 21?) than, why not wait for 24 and get the allmighty UAI? i just don't see myself waiting that long to recieve the thief abilities back - guess just not patient enough.

that's why i go with kensai-thief and stalker: it's a better strategy to ELIMINATE one or two spellcasters compleatly, than to disrupt three or four. and stalkers and kensai-thiefs have a way af assuring it by maximising the damag (critical strike and kai, respectively). this is without mentioning UAI, which is used earlyer on afighter dualled to thief than vice-versa.

in fact, my favorite party has two stalkers (pc & npc) and a kensai13-thief. they OWN party vs party battles. can't wait to take them to ToB

[Impaler987]

Originally posted by Mirk
i dislike the assassin-fighter because he represents the classic dual-classing dilemma too well: dual early, regain the abilities early, dual late, "milk" the first class for the bonuses.

now, as we are adressing the backstab here, i consider the x7 multiplier to be one of the most important benefits here. this means i have to dual late (lvl 21?) than, why not wait for 24 and get the allmighty UAI? i just don't see myself waiting that long to recieve the thief abilities back - guess just not patient enough.

Oh yeah, I definitely agree that it takes inhuman patience to wait until level 21 to dual an assassin (which is when you get x7 backstab) and it's even more pointless to try shooting for level 24. Yeah, you'll be a freaking god once you regain your assassin abilities, but it'll be way too late (and -SPOILER- you'll literally be a freakin' god, or have the choice to be one, by the time you get that far, probably )

I actually consider the optimal dual-class range for an assassin (if you have ToB) to be between 13 and 17. Don't even think about it before 13 or your backstab is no better than a stalker's (and you're overall a much worse character than a stalker). 13 is when you get the x5 backstab (better than a stalker's), and at level 17, you get a few more thieving points to add to important skills and a x6 backstab. Even at the level 17 dual point, you'll reach level 18 as a fighter with more than enough time left in the game (easily the vast majority of ToB) to enjoy being a complete assassin/fighter, which is really fun to play. Plus the benefits of specialization and higher on up to grand mastery, the improved Thac0, Greater Whirlwind, Critical Strike, and Smite will easily make up for the 1 to 2 multiplier points lost. IMO, the x7 backstab is a little overrated, especially when compared to the other benefits that can only be appreciated fully when dualled in the level 13-17 range.

Yeah, I still prefer the stalker slightly, due to his much superior defense (Armor of Faith and high HP) and the fact that he's basically a partial multi-class from the very start and takes no messing with dual-classing, but the case for a properly prepared assassin/fighter is very strong too. If anything, I enjoy the extra challenge and interaction needed to control an assassin/fighter as compared to a stalker, who already takes a lot of interaction to sucessfully play but can still go crazy in a lot of battles in which the assassin/fighter can't due to his lower defense.

[Mirk]

what do you mean by "interaction"?

[Impaler987]

What I meant by interaction was that to play with an assassin/fighter or stalker effectively, you actually have to plan ahead somewhat and will have to take more control over him yourself than, say, with a berserker or barbarian, who can pretty much be turned loose on an enemy or enemy party with AI control on and still be effective.

Stalkers require a lot of hands-on control to be played effectively, but assassin/fighters even more so because the latter has lower defense, so evasion and healing tactics will be even more necessary.