Full out War

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 3:30 pm

Okay people, moment of truth. I will ask the question none have dared. In an all out death-fest between one maxed out, best armoured of each class, who would win? This of course includes kits and everything. Now, thats a lot of thinking, and even I don't have an answer myself, but I want to see what others think, and see how far this battle will go...

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Courage is Bravery,
Bravery is Courage,
Children are Flamable

KN · Post by KN » Mon Jan 15, 2001 3:43 pm

If backstabbing and stealth was allowed I would have to go with the assassin or fighter/thief equipped with boots of speed, cloak of non-detection and strength girdle and blackrazor and one of the other good swords. Just run up and take a smack at them and then run around a corner and hide. You cant kill what you cant see. Yeah wizards have plenty of defensive spells but they have a time limit and you dont have to rest to restore your backstabbing ability.

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"Four thousand throats may be cut in one night, by a running man."
- Klingon Crewman "Day of the Dove"

Elenias Nal'nair · Post by **Elenias Nal'nair** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 5:46 pm

...depends on many factors and variables. Check the former topic 'Idiots vs. Brainers' for a well based and detailed discussion on fighters vs. mages. Thieves and Clerics (along others) are not included but it gives a good overlook at possiblities and chances.
The essence is: well planned each class and each kit COULD win, but you can't eliminate the all-time factor luck...

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 6:15 pm

I'm planning to run a duel between the fighter classes at some point so I'll let you know what happens.

I think anyone except a mage would have a really tough time killing a barbarian. At level 19 with the right equipment they are around 200+ hp and with Defender have 40% resistance to every physical attack. They're also immune to backstab so you can forget about trying that. Their speed bonus means they can outrun anyone so you can't get away but they can if they have to. Put on a Cloak of Mirroring to stop the magical damage and you have one tough to stop tank.

I think even a kensai would lose in a straight out slugging fest...I'll find out soon.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 6:57 pm

Ahhh, how nice it is to have my thread (idiots vs. brainers) such an active one. Good topic, I'll bring it back at some point for those who want to read it.

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Courage is Bravery,
Bravery is Courage,
Children are Flamable

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 7:04 pm

Okay, last post from me was spam (whoops on me) You people got to remember. While the "blockheads" are dukeing it out (pretty much all but clerics, mages, theives, and sorcerors) those afore mentioned classes could bombard the battle field with things like Incinery Cloud, Cloud, Holy Smite (Like that spell) and other such spells. By the time the big bash-mash would be done, it would be down to a one on one, a bunch of mages. Plus, after casting every area affect spell the mage has, he could start on defenisive spells, so when a victor from the brawl does emerge, oooh... Lookie here, a fully preped mage/cleric/sorceror is ready to open up a can of whoop ass.

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Courage is Bravery,
Bravery is Courage,
Children are Flamable

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 10:32 pm

We're assuming that everyone is wearing the standards, cloak of mirrors, rings of Gaxx, etc.

My vote would be a high-level monk. You have the best of all worlds, here. Great AC and THAC0, great magic resistance (100%), awesome saves, best speed of any class, stealth, and killer special attacks. They are awesome and well-rounded. They may fall under certain circumstances, but overall, they will have the upperhand over most other classes, most of the time.

Don't forget the kensai, though.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 1:11 am

Well back to luck. If a Wizard slayer can get 5-6 landing blows in a row. The mage has a 40-50% chance of failure. And since the first few rounds hes doing his defenses the WS duel weilding can get 5-6 blows easy if he gets luky.
so it all boils down to the Saving Rolls. a.k.a LUCK

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Just a couple &cent from Ron!
[url="http://www.geocities.com/thesmh/"]Shadows of the Midnight Hour[/url]
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Rail · Post by **Rail** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 1:31 am

Or the preparation of the mage (contingincies). I think it depends more upon the *player* than luck, though both clearly affect the outcome.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 2:34 am

I still say a mage with the Staff of the Magi will win because of the ability to go invisible. You can't hit what you can't see.

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'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 2:52 am

But, will you be only partial invisible after attacking? Will the fighter not be able to target you, or will the fighter receive only a -4 to hit?

All things equal, though, a prepared mage with their equip, contingencies, triggers, sequencers, etc., beat a prepared fighter most of the time.

That Prot. from Magic spell really bites if it is put on a mage who doesn't want it, though! Very powerful, indeed. No magic can be cast on the affected individual, and no magic can be cast by them, either. OUCH!!!

Elenias Nal'nair · Post by **Elenias Nal'nair** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 6:08 am

@Rail: THIS last hint is a really cool one but only doable by a few classes. In fact it's my favourite way for a thief engaging a mage or sorc in P&P and hopefully in NWN. Sad they didn't implement scroll use for thieves in BG.

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 6:17 am

I agree. I just assumed thieves could use scrolls at certain levels. Sadly, I was disappointed.

Oh, well. Now most think thieves are underpowered. Oh, well. I'll just wait here in the shadows...

Black Hand · Post by **Black Hand** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 6:19 am

The fighter/thief-cloak-backstab combo was the most potent fighting style in Planescape:Torment. I don't know how else I would have beaten that 500K(!) Demon-Beast.

@Rail: The Staff of the Magi only grants normal invisibility, but it will be renewed every time you equip it.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 8:23 am

I have to agree about the Monk, if you got the gauntlets of +4 damage and played hand to hand, or the Ninja-To from Julov he would be the best, although a Fighter Cleric might be a reasnoable chice due to his healing abilities.

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"I claim the right to contradict myself. I don't want to deprive myself of the
right to talk nonsense, and I ask humbly to be allowed to be wrong sometimes."
-- Federico Fellni

Elenias Nal'nair · Post by **Elenias Nal'nair** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 8:38 am

...against a power-fighter, Kensai, Berserk or Monk healing is quite useless because it takes too long to cast (without protection). Even casting e.g. that full-HP-healing spell wastes a full round, a good fighter could dish out 80-150 points in that very round unless he can't because of sanctuary...hmm...

...against a mage or sorc the fighter/cleric (or fighter->cleric) could be quite effective because of the lag between two damaging spells from the mage. Time enough to cast something useful (that will instantly dispelled by the mage...). The chance is to melee the mage down, a spell battle the cleric would lose for sure...

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 12:36 pm

I did the preliminary slugging fests last night with some interesting results.

The combatants:
Half-Orc Barbarian
Half-Orc Kensai
Half-Orc Berzerker
Human Monk

All characters at exp cap with maxed physical stats. Common equipment used by all: Cloak of Mirroring, 2xRing of Gaxx, Boots of Speed (except monk), Belt of Frost Giant (If using Crom Faeyr replace with Gridle of Bluntness).

Class Specific Equipment
Monk: Pale Green Ioun, Amulet of Power, Gauntlets of Crushing, Boots of Grounding
Kensai: Pale Green Ioun, Shield Amulet
Barbarian: Helm of Balduran, Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, Shadow Dragon Scale (better mods than Crimson Chain)
Berzerker: Helm of Balduran, Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, Plate of Balduran (better mods than Red Dragon, bonus hp)

I started out playing with different weapons with Barbarian vs Barbarian. After doing the math on the weapon damages, the weapons that made it into testing round were:

1-h
Blackrazor
Celestial Fury
Crom Faeyr
Flail of Ages

Defender of Easthaven
Belm (Kensai only)

2-h
Impaler
Dragon's Breath
Wave
Staff of Striking
Soul Reaver

I tested the weapons by equipping each barbarian with a single weapon, then having the Rage and attack eachother.

Results so far:
Flail of Ages CRUSHED the other weapons in the 1-h category (with or without Rage). I didn't expect the slow effect to be nearly as powerful as it is. Crom Faeyr and Blackrazor went about even with Rage, but Crom Faeyr was stronger without. Celestial Fury got hammered on by all the other 3 partly because they made the save vs stun automatically.

In the 2-h category so far Wave has an edge over Dragon's Breath which surprised me. Apparently DB actually only does 1d10 plus the special damage as opposed to the 1d10+4 that I would have expected from a halberd with +4 to hit. Impaler seemed to edge out Wave. Maybe the surprise candidate is Soul Reaver. In combatants less able to take a pounding I think it would be less effective, but so far it has had more success than any other 2-h weapon.

I'll be finishing up the 1-h vs 1-h and 2-h vs 2-h and starying on the 1-h vs 2-h soon.

Preliminary fights (Barbarian vs Kensai, Barbarian vs Monk, Barbarian vs Berzerker) suggest that the Barbarian will win. The Monk with his relatively low hp completely loses the damage race vs the barbarian even with Lay on Hands. His specials have the same problem with saves that Celestial Fury has.

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 01-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 01-17-2001).]