Holy Avenger +5 vs. +6 Cespenar you screwed us!

[Troll Slayer]

I was thinking a little about the difference between the best 5 weapons in SOA and the best 5 in TOB. I noticed that in SOA the only +5 weapons are two-handed. This makes sense as a character wielding a weapon with both hands gives up the bonus of an extra attack per round and other benefits associated with dual wielding. In SOA the holy avenger is arguably one of the best 5 weapons in the game. However even with the upgrade by cespenar in TOB, I feel the sword losses some of its appeal in TOB. After all, the advantage of going from the +5 to +6 version is minimal. The +6 gives an extra bonus of 1 to THACO and damage, and if the enemy is chaotic evil, +2 damage. Not much of an upgrade if you ask me. The THACO bonus is trivial at that point. A Paladins THACO will be so low naturally by TOB that he/she will hit almost everything every time. I kind of feel that any character using any two-handed weapon gets the shaft in TOB as there is a +5 single-handed weapon for every weapon type. It makes the appeal of using a two-handed weapon go way down. It would have been nice to see the +6 holy avenger get a few more abilities to keep it unquestionably at the top of the 5 most powerful weapons list. It is supposed to be a weapon of great power that only in times of great need a person of purest heart can wield. It is a gift from the gods of light and justice to defend the world from evil. How does everyone else feel about this? Am I way off on my thoughts? If not, what would you like to have seen holy avenger +6 stats be? I would have liked it better if the sword did 1D20 damage instead of 1D12, and upped the MR to 60%. That would have improved it a lot over the +5 version, while still maintaining game balance. Maybe the person doing the improved-weapons mod over on the sola site will see this thread and consider it if many people show interest.

[Bruce Lee]

Since many mages use absolute immunity instead of prot from magic weapons in ToB it can be good to upgrade it.
But yes powerwise dualwielding anything with Crom is better.

[Impaler987]

IMO, Carsomyr, in it's +5 form, is still a very powerful weapon in ToB, and still within the top 5. But I definitely agree that the upgrade to +6 has been made worthless b/c it doesn't gain any new abilities or damage roll, only 1 additional point each in Thac0, speed, and damage.

That's why I use the Eye of Tyr on Purfier instead, b/c the upgrade from Purifier +4 to +5 is HUGE. Purifier +5, IMO, is the best weapon in ToB. It can be used with a shield (like a real holy sword from PnP days should be), or it can be dual-wielded with another awesome sword.



Excellent Purifier +5 combos:

Purifier +5 main hand / Angurvadal +5 off hand - All-purpose killer combo for paladins! Strength of 22, negative plane protection, CE-slaying capabilities out the ass, 30% MR (which unlike Carsomyr's stacks correctly w/ other MR-granting items), 1 flaming hit per round, beautiful! IMO, the best all-around dual-wield combo in ToB, and it's paladin-exclusive.

Foebane +5 main hand / Purifier+5 off hand - This is the best combo to use against demons, hands-down. With Purifier in off-hand you still get the full 30% MR and 1 extra demon-killing attack (demons are CE) per round. Foebane is in the main hand in demon fights because it's even more effective than the Purifier at killing demons, so you'll want it doing its full number of attacks per round. With this combo my improved-hasted cavalier easily took down Demogorgon single-handedly after protections were breached. Speaking of cavaliers, man, is this combo even more beautiful in their employ!

[Silver Knight]

I played BGII & ToB through to the end several times & never found a better character than a cavalier. In SoA I had him wield Carsomyr. In ToB I had him wield Crom Faeyr in one hand and the rune hammer in the other. Demolished just about everything in the game that way

[Querschen]

Keldorn was the best fighter I had by far in SoA but he slacked in ToB becoming my worst out of myself (swashbuckler/fighter) sarevok and himself. This may be in part due to the crappy upgrade for carsomyr. but he still gets 50 % mag res. and dispel per hit, this is not something you can discount. He also summons devas so he isnt total jackoff. Best Dual Weapon Combo : Axe of unyeilding and flail of ages.

[Silver Knight]

I thought Keldorn was pants. Starting Str & Dex way too low. In ToB I had Minsc dual wield the flail of ages and that sword that gives you 22 str though I forget its name. Angurvadal or something.

[gnomethingy]

Carsomyr is already awesome, to increase it too much would ruin the balance

The issue is not the two handed weapons, it is rather the duel weilding.

Duel weilding is obvoisly too powerfull, it doesnt matter what weapons you use its the simple fact that you can gain stat increase, attack increase and any number of additional abilities over the two handed weapons.

Consider that hindos doom and Purifier +5 give 45% mr and immunity to death magic..easily the mage killing equal of Carsomyr

If you ask me, the best two handed weapons are staff of the ram, for its sheer dmg and Ravager for the same reasons + vorpal hit.

The upgraded Carsomyr should gain a + to its innate dispel, possibly from lvl 10 to 20...

[Bruce Lee]

I feel that using a shield and a weapon is better than dual-wielding. It actually makes quite a big difference lowerring your AC by 5. With the high level abilities you can still deal massive amount of damage when need be.
Kensais, blades and swashbucklers and perhaps rangers should dual-wield but others fighters benefit more from usiing a shield IMO... ofcourse wielding a two-handed sword is cooler but not so effective.

[gnomethingy]

I find sword / sheild style to be the ultimate for a good str fighter in the early game... late soa and early tob however I find duel to be better.