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This forum is to be used for all discussions pertaining to BioWare's Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn.
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Gruntboy
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Post by Gruntboy »

Being a self-confessed blockhead and having defeated every single mage in the single player game, (even that wuss, Irenicus) I have come to the conclusion that mages & sorcerers are pants. Image

Now before you all jump down my throat, I have not said anything about 1-on-1 combat, deathmatch etc. In these situations it is the ingenuity of the player that counts and the fantastical equipment they hold - a high level sorceror with the staff of the magi is indeed a powerful opponent.

But I have come to realise that, in the single player game, spellcasters are little more than an annoyance. Just look at the spell lists to see how every spell protection to make a spellcaster impregnable has another spell to take it down. Not only that but there are plenty of spells designed to disrupt and prevent spellcasting. To a party, in the single player game, spellcasters are nothing more than support. They are there to remove a hostile spellcaster's protections so fighters can take them down.

Again, just look at the plethora of weapons, equipment and methods non-spellcasters can use to chop up mages. Sure, mages can deal out their own damage but even when using beefed-up melee spells, they can't go toe-to-toe with a fighter. Summoned fodder? Fodder. Kill with spells? Just how many kills do your mages have copmared to your fighters. Again, support to weaken enemies/make them vulnerable to the fighters.

A part of the team, yes, but not the most crucial element. IMHO the only way to kill the really bad guys has always been to deal out lots of damage quickly, with melee weapons.

Priests are the better spellcasters. At least they can cast useful group spells and, with heavy armour and powerful melee weapons, mix it up in close quarters battle.

I will answer your mis-guided flames later. Image

PS How do you spellcasters deal with inherently magic-immune creatures like Rakshasas, Golems and Dragons?

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Post by Brink »

I mainly used spellcasters to provide support/summon minions in my party.It is possible to finish the game with the spellcaster(s) in a party having no kills.
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Post by Rail »

Blockhead?!? You, Grunt? Image Okay, everyone listen up. Grunt, here, is teaching you a lesson. Pay attention! There will be a quiz later.

I think, now that you mention it, Grunt, spellcasters usually deal with magic resistant creatures by summoning things to do what a fighter does naturally! Image Image
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Post by Garcia »

yes that and they smell Image
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Radek
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Post by Radek »

The mage need not always be so harmless. My party always contain a kensai/mage. With the Staff of Rynn, the mage has about 130 HP and thac0 below zero. At the end of the game, the mage usually has about 27% of kills (a party of three).
I agree. The mage is a support, not a frontline fighter. But an important support. Without a mage, you will solve difficult problems that you need not solve. An example: summoning monsters. The importance of this ability does not consist in reinforcements but in resistances and immunities. A Mordekainen Sword can handle situations that would cost you people otherwise. Another important examples are Haste or Invisibility. Does the number of kills done by the mage reflect the reality? I don't think so. A mage IS a cruical element.
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Post by sigurd »

ACtually, the mage is most important in the beginning of the game, the farther you get the less imortant he will become, not even fightng dragons i needed a mage in the end, poor imoen could just stand and watch.

Kensaimage is special, but then thats your PC, and PC is always better.

A party of 3 ownmade characters is much more easy to end the game with than PC + 5 NPC.
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Edwin
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Post by Edwin »

I finished the game as a solo sorcerer and the only enemies that gave me real problems were drows:high magic resistance and always come in groups. About how to defeat golems and other immune to magic enemies, just cast lower resistance and the job is done......they can hurt you.....yes, but you can cast stoneskin......
I think every class have its high and lows.....but you cannot say mages are only support. Cast confusion on your fighters...then we'll talk about how mages are easily defeated by fighters.
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Post by Manveru »

Maybe spellcasters aren't able to kill all creatures in this game or handle all situations but spellcasting is just funny Image Image (I like to cast Gate or Insects Image Image on my opponents )

Game without spellcasting is sad (the same thing about soloing - NPCs are the most improved thing in BG2).

That are the reasons why I haven't ever played pure fighter or monk or barbarian.

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Gruntboy
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Post by Gruntboy »

Valid opinions all.

I never said spellcasting wasn't funny. It does indeed look groovy. That's why I *always* use a mage.

I never mentioned soloing (although I'd like to see you do it with a sorcerer if there was a time limit - evil doesn't wait y'know). Althoug I did acknowledge that in 1-on-1 a sorcerer was powerful.

I never mentioned dual-class. Indeed, a dualled mage would be powerful. But by dualling to/from a fighter you are merely acknowledging my view that mages are weak in melee and need fighters to do the actual killing.

I never said the mage wasn't crucial. Without one, how will I take down those protections? But support only. Without protections, what is a mage but a corpse to be plundered?

@sigurd - exactly, I came to feeling strongly about this whilst playing Suldenesselar. Imoen cast all her spells for naught whilst my fighters hacked their way through the city.
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Gruntboy
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Post by Gruntboy »

Originally posted by Radek:
Does the number of kills done by the mage reflect the reality?
Yep. It reflects their role in battle. Few kills = supporting role.

The mage helps the other characters do the killing.
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Gruntboy
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Post by Gruntboy »

Originally posted by Edwin:
Cast confusion on your fighters...then we'll talk about how mages are easily defeated by fighters.
I never mentioned specific tactics. For every tactic there is always at least one response.

Saving throws? Chaotic commands? Magic resistance? Dispel magic? Right back at ya' - cast confusion on the mage (Jester?)?

And if you're seriously suggesting that 1 mage can take down a party of adventurers... not even Irenicus can do that. They could all be confused, as long as one gets through and cuts the mage up.

Every mage (or group of spellcasters) you come across in the game is soon so much diced flesh on the ground. Image
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Gruntboy
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Post by Gruntboy »

Originally posted by Manveru:
Game without spellcasting is sad (the same thing about soloing - NPCs are the most improved thing in BG2).
I never said I played without magic. I agree and I *always* have a mage. Image
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Post by Nighthawk »

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
Yep. It reflects their role in battle. Few kills = supporting role.

The mage helps the other characters do the killing.


Not neccesarily. In my games I tend to have one fighter that just hacks a path for the party through the bulk of the enemies. He'll rack up huge amounts of kills, but the mages are key in the big ones and often get the credit for the biggest kills.
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Gruntboy
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Post by Gruntboy »

@Nighthawk. Yes, different playing styles. I fyou only have one fighter, no way is he going to get the "big" kills.

My fighters share the big kills, have huge numbers of small kills and if Imoen ever gets a big kill its more luck than anything else.

Insta-death spells? Can't be arse to do the reloading frankly (even with lower resistance/Greter Malison). How many times must you reload or rest to get the big kills with spells.

Nope, far more efficient to hack them down with fighters. You don't have to reload just 'cos you missed with one swing of the blade.
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Post by Manveru »

What do you think about Monks as better alternative for normal fighters ?
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Saumerez
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Post by Saumerez »

I have to agree at least in principle. This same thing is true in other games that I have played. Seems that game designers all agree that high end mobs will have high MR.
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Nighthawk
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Post by Nighthawk »

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
@Nighthawk. Yes, different playing styles. I fyou only have one fighter, no way is he going to get the "big" kills.

My fighters share the big kills, have huge numbers of small kills and if Imoen ever gets a big kill its more luck than anything else.

Insta-death spells? Can't be arse to do the reloading frankly (even with lower resistance/Greter Malison). How many times must you reload or rest to get the big kills with spells.

Nope, far more efficient to hack them down with fighters. You don't have to reload just 'cos you missed with one swing of the blade.
I've played both ways. My first time through I had: Sorcerer, Haer'dalis->Imoen, Nalia, Aerie, Jahiera, Minsc.

My second time through I had: Kensai (NOT /Mage), Keldorn, Minsc, Anomen, Jahiera, Nalia->Yoshi->Imoen.

Either way, one fighter hacked through and the rest of the party followed except for the big fights. I have to say that the game went much faster and was much easier with the fighter heavy party.

I didn't use the insta-kill stuff much...mostly sequencers full of Fire Arrows, etc. Sequencers of Lower Resistance when needed. However, it seems that having 5 mages trigger off Lower Resistances and Greater Malaisons with minor sequencer Doom's from Aerie followed off by a simultaneous 5 Fingers of Death (Does that make it a Fist of Death?) ought to take out just about anything not shielded and you can usually replace the lower resistances with defense disrupters for that.
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Post by Craig »

Isee all your points but grunty what if mages WERE made TO BE surport fightergoing against an elder orb(no speicail clock of mirroring things) BOOM dead same for all mages (except high levle (9th levle spells which all of group can cast!!!)) so mix 'em and fighter goes for the kill after elder orb imbobilised THEY ALL SURPORT EACH OTHER

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Post by frelic »

Actually, I'd like to know how a mage handles either a greater wolfwere or demi-lich?
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Post by KensaiRyu »

Well my solo sorceror handled both just fine, its all about knowing your enemies and their weakness. 5 Skeleton warriors, 2 of them Improve hasted and the rest hasted go a long way toward killing a greater werewolf, especially with me behind casting lower resis and spell sequencer magic missle (3 X 5 X 3) and the demilich was easy with staff of rhynn and spell immunity abjuration, and more skeleton warriors. Hardest part for me about solo sorc was getting the kills earlier in the game to get up to a good level, but once you reach around level 15, forget it, you got a spell for everything, and scrolls for backup.


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