Monk overpowered, or game too easy? (Spoilers)

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 8:35 pm

Just curious, for those who finished the game, how tough was it? I finished as a 20th level monk with the following attributes:

AC: 42
HP: 197

STR: 19
DEX: 21
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 20
CHR: 10

Attack bonus: +25/+22/+19/+16/+13
Damage: 1-20 + 4 (Critical: 20/x2) +1d6 sonic
Saving throws of 19, 22, 22
Spell resistance: 30 (natural)

20 stunning fists per day
1 quivering palm per day
Unlimited improved knockdowns per day
Immunity to disease, poison, mind-affecting spells
Damage reduction 20/+1
Every single damage avoidance feat I could get (mobility, improved evasion, etc.)

I played on hard core and probably should have gone to the max level. The problem was that the normal swarms of enemies I encountered couldn't hit me, so it didn't matter if they did double damage or not. The only tough battles were 7th level and lower (intellect devourer, swords of never). Belial, all the dragons, the balor lords, the half-dragon balor, Morag (once I smashed that statue

) were all pretty easy. Aribeth and Maugrim were a joke, neither one even injured my character. The thing is, I played BGII on NORMAL level (yes, I was a wuss

) and it was a LOT more difficult than this game. So is it the monk? Should I not have indulged in stunning fist (balor lords, half-dragon balor, fire giants, spell casters all fell victim) and improved knockdown (war golems, undead spellcasters) so much?

Or is the game just that easy?

Dolphin · Post by **Dolphin** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 9:55 pm

I think u r right about easy, i just finished today(20th barbarian), and none of the last bosses(aribeth, morag etc.) impressed me, the only thing that was pretty hard is a fire giant caves and red dragon in the end, but all others were pretty lame...

Dolphin · Post by **Dolphin** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 9:56 pm

But still i didnt spend hours on some kind of lich like in BG, so thats kinda dissapointing

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 10:03 pm

lol, yeah I ran into something labeled "lich" in a cell in the host tower. It died as easily as one of those apprentice wizards.

Trix · Post by **Trix** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 6:28 am

Listen, if you play a fighter-type in singleplayer then yes, it is going to be easier, because the SP has to be roughly balanced for all the classes.

If you want more of a challenge, I suggest playing Wizards, Clerics or Rogues. If you're already playing on the D&D difficulty (and there is one higher) you could also consider RP restrictions on your character. For example, my Half-Elf Cleric wouldn't wear armour heavier than 20. (Too uncomfortable.)

There are, IMO, two other reasons why you might be finding the SP too easy. The first is that, as usual, BioWare caved into populist munchkinism of having stupidly powerful magic items. Rings and necklaces which raise stats by up to five points.

The other reason is that of poor AI.

The bane of all SP games is AI. It was possible for me to win the last battle with only my Cleric, with no spells memorised, simply by using cheese tactics against the AI.

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 6:04 pm

If it has to be balanced for all characters, then why are fighters easy?

But I know what you mean.

After thinking some more about it, the bane of all spellcasters are mobs and hardhitting monsters with lots of hit points that can't be held or controlled. Neverwinter Nights has those in spades.

But the bane of fighters, the lich/dragon that casts flame shield, improved invisibility, blur, mirror image, stoneskin, protection from magical weapons and/or improved mantle then lets go with the artillery.... NWN is sadly lacking in those.

I don't recall a single spellcaster using any of the above mentioned spells, other than simple invisibility. Or if they did, I didn't notice. In BGII, you noticed. You couldn't take on a lich or dragon or a party with a decent druid or mage and not notice that there were some REALLY annoying spells.

But again, I think you're right about the balancing issue. A mage against a mob of fire giants? Very hard, but very doable. A pure fighter against a lich? No chance, unless you had a wand of pierce magic and dispel magic. And those aren't lying around everywhere.

A serious problem with the single henchman over party style of play, imo. I'm not a D&D'er, but those of my friends who are have told me often that it's all about the well-balanced party, the complementary characters.

Not in NWN.

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 6:20 pm

Originally posted by Trix

you could also consider RP restrictions on your character.

*Reels backwards, look of horror on face*
Give up my power items! Never!

Actually, compared to BGII, the items in NWN I thought were kind of weak.

No Ring of Gaxx, Cloak of Mirroring, Crom Faeyr...

*sigh*

Compare the adding of a measly +5 to stats to the Crom Faeyr (gives a cleric with 9 strength now 25, +16 increase).

And how many people started characters with 3 charisma, knowing that they could get the Ring of Human Influence (+15)?

Ah, the cheese...

Eriks · Post by **Eriks** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:24 pm

BG and BG II (and expansions) are all considerably more challenging than NWN has been for me so far (I am midway through ch2). This is the first time I am playing trhough NWN and I very rarely have to load up saved games because of death. In BG and BG II there were lots of tough battles and not so many rediculously powerful items (especially in BG 1). In BG II there were more powerful items but nothing so amazing, there was dragon armor and such but it just gave good AC and some resistances. There was nothing that I found that significantly raised ability scores for instance (I still remember the tomes that raised ability scores by 1, which were like AMAZING finds). I really enjoyed the BG series where my characters mostly had +1 equipment and some +2 stuff which was the best most players could hope for. I haven't faught a dragon in NWN yet, but from what I have read it doesnt seem THAT hard. In BG II, I spent an entire day loading and trying again and again to take out the Red Dragon Firkraag (man that dude was tough!). With all his protections and bonuses and buffs I could hardly get a dent in with all 6 of my party members. My thoughts so far is that some items are too powerful in NWN and the game could of been more challenging (I play an elven ranger and use Tomi as my henchman). NWN is lots of fun, but can get a little dull when I am practically immune to anything other than a major boss

Calogrenant · Post by **Calogrenant** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:49 pm

Originally posted by Nygma

But the bane of fighters, the lich/dragon that casts flame shield, improved invisibility, blur, mirror image, stoneskin, protection from magical weapons and/or improved mantle then lets go with the artillery.... NWN is sadly lacking in those.

True, maybe this sort of things did not happen in NWN because of the lack of contingency-like spells. BGII Boss MoB`s always had several triggers which protected them from round one, making your melees useless until you finally dispelled them, imprisoning or horrid-wiltingning your characters in the while.

**Some big spoilers ahead, be warned

**

That`s why should NWN bosses even try to cast a couple of buffs, they certainly would`nt reach round three alive

Even when some liches, standing well at the rear, managed to sneak in some protections, or even a time stop (Maugrim, Morag), dont`s ask me why, but they proved to be less than 20% effective than their BGII-ToB counterparts.

BUT, we don`t have to forget that in BGII-ToB, once you had the Time Stop-Improved Alacrity combo, non-inmune-to-time-stop bosses were a joke, too.

NOTE: I played a melee, so I`m not 100% sure about whether spell triggers exist in NWN or not, and don`t want to go for the manual to check it. If they do exist, then they must be some sort of sneaky spells, since I don`t remember selling them, and monsters definitely not wanted to use them

Both games were great, and really fun to play nonetheless

slowcar · Post by **slowcar** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:56 am

for all who walked with the 'overpowering' monk:

as a rogue you can cast level 9 spells, just go and buy yourself some scrolls.

greater stoneskin and spell mantle and you are just walking around and ressurecting your henchman...

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:00 pm

Originally posted by slowcar
for all who walked with the 'overpowering' monk: as a rogue you can cast level 9 spells

A challenge!!

Ok, the monk aspects that appealed to the powergamer within:

Cleave: I think I once took out four opponents in a row (one round) with this. Definitely three, on multiple occasions.

Stunning Fist: For a monk, no attack or damage penalties, and one per level per day. Balor lords and mages stood stupidly as my monk trashed them after stunning them with this feat. Being surrounded by three fire giants, all stunned, is very satisfying. Some enemies, however, are immune to critical hits, so I had to use...

Improved Knockdown: This is a ridiculously powerful feat. (Lots of fun!) The only characters immune to it were Morag and dragons that I saw. I didn't know Aribeth had a divine fire spell that did 200 damage, because she never had a chance to cast it. She spent the majority of that very brief fight on her back, while my monk pummelled her. (He felt bad, kicking his love while she was down.) Or maybe she did get it off, but I didn't notice because my monk has...

Spell Resistance and High saving throws: Towards the end of the game, most spellcasters manage to get off only one spell, if that, before they succumbed to stunning fist or improved knockdown. The log looked something like this "...attempts to resist spell: spell resisted." More rarely, it looked like this "...resist failed. Atttempts fortitude/will save: success" Spellcasters were in terror of the monk!

There is also quivering palm, though it was not as reliable as knockdown or stunning fist. But running up to a group of fire giants and killing the first with a single blow brings great inner peace.

Dodge, Improved evasion, mobility (+4 AC to Attacks of Opportunity), immunity to mind-affecting spells, poison, disease, and natural damage reduction 20/+1 makes the monk very difficult to injure.

The ability to practically waltz through traps without incident due to fortitude and reflex saves of 19 and 22 was handy. (Except for those @!*(^ bugged acid traps!!)

Add to that the fact that, outside spells, the monk deals more damage per round than a rogue, I rest my case that the monk is the cheesier of the two!

Must try the rogue though. How much did 9th level spells cost you? Would they have put much of a dent into my admittedly huge budget?

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:16 am

How did you get AC 42?

slowcar · Post by **slowcar** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:48 am

Add to that the fact that, outside spells, the monk deals more damage per round than a rogue

hmm, i would say no.
even if the monk has his iterative unarmed attacks my rogue had a better BAB (due to his fighter/barbarian-levels) and 6d6 sneak damage.
since nearly all enemies beside the last ones and undead are vulnerable to sneak damage if my henchman chops on them they got loads of damage,
i managed to dish out more then 150 points per round.

i agree that the monks special abilities make him very unbalanced in this game,
if you like to challenge real spellcasters feel free to play some little encounters with my mages

(DnD playground, not crippled by these rules)

the monk can't wear armor and does not use weapons, thats a big drawback in 'real' DnD and the special abilities balance this.

in NWN there is only crappy equipment, even if its powers are beyond the stuff a NPC is wearing or could handle.

the ring of power and the amulet of the master were indeed some nice items...

for the spells:
the only time i used spells i bought was in the last battle and for my first balor.

i didn't find a shortsword +3, so it was hard to damage the balor (20/+3 reduction...) without magic, a horrid wilting does it.

in the last battle i walked through the minions of the last battle with a mind blank, greater spell mantle and improved stoneskin.

if i knew what to do this wouldn't have been necessary, but i tried many things and had about 10 min real time near the mightiest enemy in the game...
(hmm, i wouldn't try this with irenicus...)

the spellcasters in the game were really crap:

how about nice magic that lowers resistance?
followed by a save or die spell.

first some SR-breaching, ottos irresistable dance and maybe feeblemind.
with some minions in the front there should be enough time to cast, else go with haste and timestop, quickened spell etc.

hey, they should challange!

with an enemy standing 10 min around and doing nothing (not a single greater dispel) its a huge amount less fun.

Kameleon · Post by **Kameleon** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:23 am

Originally posted by Nygma
But the bane of fighters, the lich/dragon that casts flame shield, improved invisibility, blur, mirror image, stoneskin, protection from magical weapons and/or improved mantle then lets go with the artillery.... NWN is sadly lacking in those.

Yes goddammit, I like really tough buffed-up mages! Then I might have a challenge! 'Cos right now with my fighter and Grimgnaw, nothing can touch us. This is another thing I dislike about NWN, the homogeneity of the enemies. Where's the "Oh WOW, and this floating skull is going to do what, exactly?

OMG he just imprisoned my entire party! RUN!!" factor? Hack, hack, hack, hack. Oh look a chest. Zap. Hack hack hack. Yawn.

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:24 am

@Bruce Lee

+4 AC bonus as lvl 20 monk
+5 Wisdom modifier
+5 Dexterity modifier
+5 Boots of the Sun Soul +5 (Dodge)
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (Natural)
+5 Robes of the Shining Hand +5 (Armor Modifier)
+3 Cloak of Fortification +3 (Deflection)
+1 Dodge feat (not sure if this is included in character sheet figure)

I assume the base AC must be around 9 or 10 for lvl 20 character.

@slowcar

Actually, I did have a few mages cast some kind of lower magic resistance on me. If they realized that the monk had spell resistance that's not bad AI. Every time that happened, though, I knocked down or stunned the guy who did it. Sadly, we'll never know if the resistance-lowering spell was effective.

Oh, the monk's fists become +3 weapons at level 16.

I agree that the enemy spellcasting in this game definitely needs to be upgraded.

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:55 am

Originally posted by Kameleon
Where's the "Oh WOW, and this floating skull is going to do what, exactly? OMG he just imprisoned my entire party! RUN!!" factor?

lol. My feelings exactly. Where are the memorable fights, the ones that spawn 37 different threads on how to win?

Ask anyone about tough BGII fights, they'll rattle off: Firkraag, Twisted Rune, guarded compound gang, that-party-under-the-temple-district-sewer-that-cast-fear,-the-bastards, Kangaxx, beholders, mindflayers, and on.

NWN? Belial, Morag, ummm..., Swords of Never...., ummm..., hmmm, this is a tough one...

For me, only the Swords of Never were even close to being worthy of standing in the august company above.

I like the game, but the mod community needs to get busy!

Kameleon · Post by **Kameleon** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:02 am

Originally posted by Nygma
I like the game, but the mod community needs to get busy!

Are there ways to change the types of monsters, and make new ones? I thought they were kinda set in stone...haven't delved too deep into the toolset yet though. Thinking about it, you could probably change the monsters as long as you don't change their graphics - what they do, how strong they are etc., but could you actually make a real Beholder with all the graphics if you wanted to?

slowcar · Post by **slowcar** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:13 am

how about some PvP-modules?

invite some people to play the BBEGs and you are set, no need to invent big monsters

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon Aug 05, 2002 10:18 am

Woa, woa, woa. Ok, hang on for two seconds everyone. Remember what Baldurs Gate was? An entirely SINGLE player game. Black Isle had time to devote to the big battles. Neverwinter Nights is all about the multi-play. Admittedly, my Paladin has no problems dealing with Brother Toras, but thats because I got rid off all of his undead allies with Turn Undead. I'm just getting to the end of Chapter 3 (resolving final quests) and some battles are giving me problems, others not.

Let's remember that someone is going to create something that will challenge you. Don't moan at Bioware for an easy game, compliment them for the toolset and the future that it allows.

DaleWind · Post by **DaleWind** » Mon Aug 05, 2002 12:29 pm

The game itself is not supposed to be easy, just the SP campaign. Bioware have to make money, so they make the SP campaign lean a little bit more toward those munchkins. It's not just the monk, all the classes are very easy to complete in SP, except the bard, which is relatively moderate (until you start abusing the UMD skill)

Monk: Monk gets ridiculous AC, plus they can use a shield... which means a monk can easily get up to 50 AC, making them effectively unhittable. They get immunity to almost everything (get some items if you don't have it), and gets 7, SEVEN attacks per round with Robe of the Dark Moon and furry of blows. All of them made at probably +20 something...

Wiz/Sorc : Time stop + Maximized damage spell of some kind = dead enemies

Cleric : Searing Light has no save, Blade barrier does 120 damage maxed, and Word of faith basically stuns anything... Woo.. a dragon.. aww.. a paralyzed dragon

fighter-types: Get the best weapon you can find and the best equippments, run through enemies while gulping healing potions...

Thank god the items are not as powerful, or this game would have no combat part, the only way you can get a good fight seems to be using parry.. for some reason

The only battle that lasted for a REAL long time was the battle devourer... (stupid damage reduc), I just told my char to attack and left, and He was still alive 6 minutes later, although I took like no damage