Ascension NPC's?

Hrothgar · Post by **Hrothgar** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 12:55 pm

*SPOILER*

I heard some people about Ascension and some new NPC's, but my question is when do I meet these characters cause I'm eager in meeting them. I only installed Ascension for these new NPC's and not for the stronger opponents.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 2:59 pm

Ascension does not add any new NPCs to the game per se. But it does allow you to talk Balthazar into joining forces with you instead of fighting you. IF you can convince him, he meets you at the Throne of Bhaal for the final battle sequence. He doesn't actually become a member of your party.

jcompton · Post by **jcompton** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 5:35 pm

Alternately, Bodhi can fight for an evil party.

Hrothgar · Post by **Hrothgar** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 5:51 am

Yeah but I heard some people about one NPC named Tashia

serjeLeBlade · Post by **serjeLeBlade** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 5:57 am

If you want Tashia, you need the Tashia mod, not Ascension!

Two different things.
(Anyway, you can have both of them installed, if you want to)

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 6:14 am

@Hrothgar:
check the second post of this page.

links to everything you may need/want

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 10:01 am

People often confuse this issue. Balthazar fights for the good, while Bodhi fights for evil.

In fact, it is simply the case that Balthazar fights for the weak, recognising his own kind, while Bodhi fights alongside the strong, and the worthy.

The people who confuse this issue likely could not even persuade Balthazar to join them.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 11:25 am

@Quitch

In fact, it is simply the case that Balthazar fights for the weak, recognising his own kind, while Bodhi fights alongside the strong, and the worthy.

How do you explain, then, that if a party is good-aligned Bodhi won't join them, no matter what? Or, you are implying that a good party consists of weak and unworthy creatures?

Moreover, how is it possible, according to your view, a person who "confuses this issue" [good/evil] to have already persuaded Balthazar to join?

Just curious.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:06 pm

I don't want to get into the middle of an argument over whether Evil characters are "stronger and more worthy" than Good characters. But I would like to say that the changes that the Ascension MOD made to Balthazar are very interesting.

In the original Throne of Bhaal, Bathazar is Lawful Neutral--adamantly opposed to chaos--and obviously not very concerned about the weak and the poor. The Ascension MOD changes his alignment to Lawful Good and gives your character the opportunity to call him to task for the way he has treated the citizens of Amkethran and to question whether he really believes that "the end justifies the means". The Ascension MOD also illuminates his own personal struggle with the taint of Bhaal. I don't want to spoil it, but those are exactly the sorts of issues I thought about when I first played Throne of Bhaal, and I was very pleased to see that they were addressed in the Ascension MOD. IMO, it significantly improves the story.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:24 pm

@VonDondu --

We're all in the middle of arguments here; don't worry.

Having read your comment on Ascension's Balthazar --which is good by the way, for, telling the truth, I hadn't noticed this alignment change-- I'm still wondering how and why should this be translated as "weakness"?

Cheers

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 6:35 pm

Originally posted by Aubrey
We're all in the middle of arguments here; don't worry.

Well, if that's the case...

Permit me to offer a counter-example to the argument that only an Evil character is "strong and worthy" enough for an Evil NPC to follow. What about the big man himself, Sarevok? He's about as evil as they come, and yet he has a strong desire to join your group. Look at what he says: "I can help you... Of course, I do this for no selfless reason. There is power in your wake. I am sure I am not the first to tell you this. And there is no better opportunity for me elsewhere. Besides...you defeated me long ago. You have earned my respect... I have only become stronger from my time in Hell. Under one such as you, I could be greater, still."

Although I haven't seen Bodhi's dialogue the way it was written in the Ascension MOD, I could imagine Bodhi making the very same argument herself. How many characters in the Realms are strong enough and worthy enough to defeat The Five? If Bodhi does not want to follow a Good character, it's not because she doesn't respect his or her power. It's probably because she knows that no Good character would have her, so she seeks revenge for being reduced to her current state and calls it a "game".

Edwin, Korgan, and Viconia are also willing to follow a Good character, and they are Evil, too, if not quite as intimidating as Sarevok and Bodhi. Edwin made an argument similar to Sarevok's at the foot of the Tree of Life: "And where do you suppose I should be going [if not with you]? You have a nose that seems to sniff out the path of power, and I will wrest what portion of it I wish until I am sated.. (And then, perhaps, we see what becomes of *you*! )"

IMO, a character who is truly Good would never allow Bodhi into his or her party even if she were willing to join forces, and that's a good reason not to allow such an option. By the same token, Balthazar would not join forces with a character whose soul does not possess some innate goodness, so it's not an option. It's as simple as that.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 10:32 pm

@VonDondu

IMO, a character who is truly Good would never allow Bodhi into his or her party even if she were willing to join forces, and that's a good reason not to allow such an option. By the same token, Balthazar would not join forces with a character whose soul does not possess some innate goodness, so it's not an option. It's as simple as that.

That's what I was trying to say.

And most of us have seen what was the end of such strong and "worthy" characters. "Nooo! This is life is mine!" Well, not anymore, darling!

Cheers

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:10 pm

Sarevok is hardly evil. Once, perhaps. However, after his experiences in the abyss he spends his time weeping and wailing about death and how hollow he has become. Truly pathetic.

Viconia has hidden pain. She ran away from her home because she wasn't strong enough to do what was required of her.

Korgan starts whimpering over the pointless battles he and his kin have fought.

Edwin is a bumbling fool, too incompotent and comical to prove to be evil.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:22 pm

And Bodhi is a fool who suffers from a super-ego. So, what?

Who says that such characters are worthy? And worthy of what? Of screaming out of realisation that winning forever is no longer an option? Ha!

Cheers

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:25 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
IMO, a character who is truly Good would never allow Bodhi into his or her party even if she were willing to join forces, and that's a good reason not to allow such an option. By the same token, Balthazar would not join forces with a character whose soul does not possess some innate goodness, so it's not an option. It's as simple as that.

With respect, I don't see it as quite that simple. "Good" and "evil" are not capable of being reduced to such quick abstractions. A significant part of Christianity, for instance, holds that devils are a test of their God--so that evil is in the service of good, tempering the soul. (And no, I'm not Christian, or even monotheistic, but it's an accurate summation.) Nations fighting wars on the "right" side have often made use of very violent, uncontrollable men, who would be locked away during peacetime. My point is that sometimes, your traveling fellows on the road through life must be chosen from among those who can get to a specific place, rather than those who carry the right union cards.

Of course, what I've just written isn't laid in stone, either. I'm merely indicating the breadth of spectrum in interaction between forces that are supposedly good and supposedly evil. We won't even go into what defines evil and good, or how cardboard-simplistic Gary Gygax' tyrannical good/neutral/evil and lawful/neutral/chaotic are.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:35 pm

Fable, I was merely offering a reasonable justification for making Bodhi uninterested in joining forces with a Good character party and for making Balthazar uninterested in joining forces with a character of Evil alignment. I certainly can't speak for the person who wrote the Ascension MOD (David Gaider), but I can offer my own interpretation of Bodhi and Balthazar (who have a life outside the Ascension MOD), and I can say I don't disagree with the choices he made, whatever his reasons might have been.

Had I written the MOD myself, I would have given players the chance to ask Balthazar and Bodhi to join forces with them. But it doesn't end there. It's also up to Bodhi and Balthazar whether they would even want to join your character. With all due respect, I don't think the argument you gave us addresses that. It isn't really necessary to address questions of good and evil. When it comes to individual NPCs, all we really need to address are their individual preferences.

We could ask, why would Balthazar join forces with someone he perceived to be Evil? He has his own agenda, which is made clear in the game, and it's not unreasonable to assume that he, like a lot of other Good or even Neutral characters, would not wish to join an Evil party, no matter how powerful or "useful" they might be. It's called "scruples".

By the same token, we could ask, why wouldn't Bodhi join forces with a Good character who is obviously much stronger than she is? I'm not sure exactly what the MOD designer had in mind, but I don't think it suits her character. Some Evil characters such as Sarevok, Edwin, Viconia, and Korgan are willing join forces with a Good character, but it's perfectly conceivable that other Evil characters, such as Bodhi, would not. Bodhi might regard Good characters as "weak" because she can't understand why anyone would use their power for different ends than she would. As a very unique, selfish individual, I don't think she could abide by the decisions of a Good leader. But that's just her opinion, not an absolute fact. I don't think it's wise to jump to the conclusion that all Evil characters perceive Good characters to be weak.

But in the end, the MOD designer had to make a decision. Would Balthazar join forces with an Evil character? No. Would Bodhi join forces with a Good character? No. It's as simple as that.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:43 pm

Originally posted by Quitch
Sarevok is hardly evil. Once, perhaps. However, after his experiences in the abyss he spends his time weeping and wailing about death and how hollow he has become. Truly pathetic.

Viconia has hidden pain. She ran away from her home because she wasn't strong enough to do what was required of her.

Korgan starts whimpering over the pointless battles he and his kin have fought.

Edwin is a bumbling fool, too incompotent and comical to prove to be evil.

You're commenting on the NPCs in BG2, correct? I thought I'd ask just to be sure.

Please analyze Bodhi's character for us. I'd like to see that.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 2:54 am

A significant part of Christianity, for instance, holds that devils are a test of their God--so that evil is in the service of good, tempering the soul. (And no, I'm not Christian, or even monotheistic, but it's an accurate summation.) Nations fighting wars on the "right" side have often made use of very violent, uncontrollable men, who would be locked away during peacetime.

Fable,

All the above are true, and I heartily agree with you. However, I can hardly take them into consideration while playing BG -- at least not to that extent. If I was to do so (I mean, extensively), Keldorn wouldn't be one of my favourite NPCs, because he would constantly remind me of the Crusades, and idea which finds me opposite (too late for my opinion

, yes, I know), and then it would be a matter of choice either to ignore him or kill him.

Moreover, should I were to define what's good/ right/ evil/ wrong before taking an in-game decision, I doubt I would had finished it. Lastly, I would find most of the NPCs irritating for they seem absolute in their beliefs, they show a striking ignorance of what relativity means, and thus they barely make allowances for different decisions under different circumstances.

What I'm trying to say is that BG is a game, and games are there for offering us some fun, and pleasure, and a break of sort from real life. If we want to feed our inquisitive minds, let's read more books, and if our doubts lead us to question the nature and morals of the so-called "civilised world", let's have a cup of coffee and converse with our friends, or whomever we want. Let me make clear that I am not suggesting that we shouldn overlook thoroughly BG's characters, plot, decisions, etc., but rather concentrating in deriving the pleasure and fun BG has been designed to give.

Back to the topic, I still believe that Bodhi's choice is determined indeed by good/ evil aligned party. A fact that Quitch, for reasons of her own, seems to reject.

My two eurocents.

Cheers

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 11:25 am

Fable, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that it's not clear that a Good-aligned party should refuse to join forces with Bodhi, since Evil people have been used by Good people throughout history for good purposes, and besides, the alignment system of D&D is complex. Correct? So the player should have the choice of letting an Evil NPC (such as Bodhi) join the party, correct?

Aubrey, I think that bears directly on whether people who play a Good party should allow Evil NPCs into the group.

As I said above, the player should be able to ask Bodhi to join the party. But the answer ultimately depends on Bodhi: she can refuse to join if she wishes. For some reason, in the Ascension MOD, she won't join forces with a Good character. I don't know the MOD designer's reasons, but I agree with his choice, based on my own interpretation of Bodhi's character.

To get back to Fable's argument, there are a lot of evil, violent people in the real world who wouldn't join the army to fight for their country for a good cause, whether the army would have them or not. Just like Bodhi. It's about individual choice. Personally, I have trouble accepting the idea that "the end justifies the means", and I still don't think a Good character should let Evil characters do their work in a D&D game. But it's up to the individual player and the individual NPC to work things out.

As you say, it's also true that even Good characters such as Keldorn might not belong in a Good party. But I think that Good characters are more likely to clash over issues concerning Law and Chaos than anything else. For example, a Chaotic Good character might think it's okay to let Bodhi join the group, but I don't think a Lawful Good character would, especially not a Paladin or Cleric. Feel free to disagree.

Leonardo · Post by **Leonardo** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 2:34 pm

As I said above, the player should be able to ask Bodhi to join the party. But the answer ultimately depends on Bodhi: she can refuse to join if she wishes. For some reason, in the Ascension MOD, she won't join forces with a Good character. I don't know the MOD designer's reasons, but I agree with his choice, based on my own interpretation of Bhodi's character.

I don't know how the game developed for you, but I was able to ask both Balthazar and Bhodi to join forces (and got rejected by both)
I was playing a Chaotic Evil Fighter/Thief (started as Chaotic Neutral and changed in Hell), but since I was romancing Jaheira I did not let my reputation fall too low (after all, he was not born bad, only his choices in hell plagued him) and had a reputation of about 14 by the end.
I can't exactly remember Balthazar's lines, but we talked a lot, and my final saying was something like "join me in defeating Melissan" to which he answered "I would never join forces with one as wicked as you" or very close to that.
In the Throne, I also talked a lot with Bhodi, and was given the option of asking her to join me. She answered something like "I could do that. But I can't trust you. You are not like me, and I sense you will kill me anyway after all".