Ranger\rogue equipment

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:14 am

Originally posted by Crosswind
Alas, don't have my player's handbook at work (somehow I think they'd object)...

The point I believe the manual is unclear on is whether the rapier IS a light weapon or is considered one. It is neither a light weapon nor considered one. It is a medium weapon that is affected by weapon finesse. It's best to think of it that way: as I recall, the spiked chain is another medium or large weapon that you can finesse.

-Cross

You may very well be right in this matter, despite what the manual says. However, when talking about light weapons, it seems that the weight of the weapon should have some importance. Both Rapiers and Short Swords have a weight of 3 Ib. according to the Player's Handbook. So why should one weapon be considered lighter than the other? It still makes no sense... And why is the Rapier "affected" by Weapon Finesse?

limorkil · Post by **limorkil** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:31 am

The whole rapier thing is confusing.

Rapier is a LIGHT weapon and a MEDIUM weapon.

Short sword is a LIGHT weapon and a SMALL weapon.

Weapon Finese allows you to use your dex bonus for attack with LIGHT weapons (e.g. rapier, short sword).

With two weapon fighting, you get a +2 main hand and +2 off hand attack bonus if your off hand weapon is a SMALL weapon (e.g. shortsword, but not rapier).

So, with Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Fighting feats (or Dual Wield feat if you are a ranger wearing light armor), the overall effect of wielding two weapons on your attack bonus, compared to wielding just one weapon, is:

-2 main hand, -2 off hand - if off hand weapon is SMALL

-4 main hand, -4 off hand - if off hand weapon is NOT small

So main hand rapier, off hand short sword gives you -2/-2
main hand short sword, off hand short sword gives you -2/-2
But main hand rapier, off hand rapier gives you -4/-4.

Most SMALL weapons are also LIGHT weapons - the rapier is a confusing exception.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:36 am

Originally posted by limorkil
The whole rapier thing is confusing.

Rapier is a LIGHT weapon and a MEDIUM weapon.

Short sword is a LIGHT weapon and a SMALL weapon.

Weapon Finese allows you to use your dex bonus for attack with LIGHT weapons (e.g. rapier, short sword).

With two weapon fighting, you get a +2 main hand and +2 off hand attack bonus if your off hand weapon is a SMALL weapon (e.g. shortsword, but not rapier).

So, with Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Fighting feats (or Dual Wield feat if you are a ranger wearing light armor), the overall effect of wielding two weapons on your attack bonus, compared to wielding just one weapon, is:

-2 main hand, -2 off hand - if off hand weapon is SMALL

-4 main hand, -4 off hand - if off hand weapon is NOT small

So main hand rapier, off hand short sword gives you -2/-2
main hand short sword, off hand short sword gives you -2/-2
But main hand rapier, off hand rapier gives you -4/-4.

Most SMALL weapons are also LIGHT weapons - the rapier is a confusing exception.

Then the Player's Handbook is incorrect as well. On p. 124 it clearly states that the off-hand weapon should be light, not small.

Crosswind · Post by **Crosswind** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:03 am

Yaagh! Now I'm getting confused too. =(

My life was much happier when there was just small, medium, large...

-Cross

Gothmog4230 · Post by **Gothmog4230** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:37 am

item list other than gamebanshee's anyone???

or someone that can get to rapier list on banshee site would just post it here - best rapiers in the game that would be great

whats that solomon guy in 2 chapter he keeps folowing me and telling im a hero and that i MUST take that ring he has. what should i do with him , i mean is this important?

Mathurin · Post by **Mathurin** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 11:44 am

Ok guys clarification. Definition of light weapon
Light weapon-And weapon one size category smaller than that of the character. Therefore all small weapons are light for medium characters, whereas only tiny weapons would be light for small characters.

The weapon finesse feat states that you can apply your dex bonus to attack rolls with any light weapon AND rapiers and a few other, for example spiked chains.

Therefore nowhere does it state that the rapier is a light weapon it is simply a medium sized weapon that can be used with weapon finesse. Hell although it would look funny a halfling could technically still apply weapon finesse to a rapier even though he would have to use it 2 handed since it is a size category larger than himself.

Even though the term is confusing weight has nothing to do with whether or not a weapon is light, for example a longsword made of mithral would weigh 3lbs but it still wont be a light weapon.

For means of 2 weapon fighting wielding 2 rapiers will always incur the standard -4/-4 penalties because you are weilding 2 medium weapons. The only bonus this has over weilding any 2 other medium weapons is that rapiers can be affected by weapon finesse.

Gothmog4230 · Post by **Gothmog4230** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:23 pm

he i found my precious rapiers in one place (i hope all of them)
http://nwvault.ign.com/index2.shtml

thats whyi decided to take imp.critical on rapier and use rapier of the high road (keen)

i noticed that when i took imp.critical on rapier(18-20) it gave me critical range of 15-20 (too much i think) that would make 25% critical hits of all blows delivered + rapier of the high road is keen weapon it will give me even more 10-20 perhaps??? too powerful i say (still i'll use it)

Mathurin · Post by **Mathurin** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:50 pm

15-20 is exactly what it should be when the original is 18-20. Keen and/or Improved Critical doubles the range, 18, 19, 20 to 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.

Magus · Post by **Magus** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 12:27 am

i noticed that when i took imp.critical on rapier(18-20) it gave me critical range of 15-20 (too much i think) that would make 25% critical hits of all blows delivered + rapier of the high road is keen weapon it will give me even more 10-20 perhaps??? too powerful i say (still i'll use it)

Actually, with keen and improved critical, the critical range of a rapier would be 12-20.

Gothmog4230 · Post by **Gothmog4230** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 11:17 am

so then both imp. critical and keen are based on base range 18-20
and each of them adds 3 points of range =(3+3=6)
18-20 + 6 critical range = 12-20

is there any other way to improve critical range?

Im planning to get parrying character but at my friend's house i saw knockdown and it looked so cool (normal damage + enemies on the floor) and it worked on every single monster.
and since after parrying a few hits enemies go for your hanchman in my case spellcaster of any sort not good in AC of HP

perhaps because of all that i would be useful for me to get it too.

Mathurin · Post by **Mathurin** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 2:39 pm

Nope. Keen and Improved Crit are the only ways to increase crit range. Although I would hope rolling a critical threat roughly 40% of the time would be good enough.

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 3:22 pm

Originally posted by Gothmog4230
i saw knockdown and it looked so cool

With Improved Knockdown my human monk could knock down those huge war golems. Absolutely hilarious to see those things fall to there hands and knees while you pummel them. One of most powerful (cheesiest?) feats out there.

I don't know how many "Impossible" monsters (usually spellcasters) were defeated without either me or my henchman taking a scratch because they were on the ground the entire fight.

DaringCommander11 · Post by **DaringCommander11** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 6:02 pm

If you got the definitions of rapiers from the players guides then I beleive you are wrong about them being light for medium creatures. I've read the Neverwinter Nights manual and it clearly stats that rapiers are light for medium sized creatures and thus makes a great off handed weapon. Just another difference between PnP and NWN.

Magus · Post by **Magus** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 10:28 pm

The character sheet seems to say otherwise (unless it's wrong too). Several people have tried putting a rapier in their off-hand, and the penalties for having a medium weapon in the off-hand are still applied. The manual does say that, but it seems to be wrong in this case. I'm surprised it's not listed under manual errata in the readme file.

Magus · Post by **Magus** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 10:32 pm

This might be a little off-topic, but what size category do a monk's fists rank under? I'm asking because the disarm feat factors in the difference between the size categories of your weapon and the opponent's weapon into the modified attack roll.

limorkil · Post by **limorkil** » Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:31 am

I thought I explained this adequately.

There are two aspects of weapons, WEIGHT and SIZE. By "Weight" I do not mean how much encumerance the weapon generates, although I can see how that is confusing because encumberance is called "Weight".

WEIGHT = Heavy, Medium, Light

SIZE = Large, Medium, Small

I am not talking about character size, although character size affects whether a weapon is large, medium or small to you (tiny, huge, etc.).

So, assuming a medium sized character (e.g. human, elf):

A short sword is both LIGHT and SMALL.

A rapier is LIGHT and MEDIUM.

With the "Weapon Finesse" feat you can apply your dexterity modifier to your attack with LIGHT weapons, which includes both short swords and rapiers.

When fighting with two weapons, regardless of whether you have any feats (i.e. "Two Weapon Fighting", "Ambidexterity") you get a bonus to attack of +2 main hand, +2 off-hand if your off-hand weapon is SMALL. Note: SMALL, not LIGHT. Short swords are SMALL, but rapiers are MEDIUM. The net effect of this, if you have both Two Weapon Fighting AND Ambidexterity, is that your attack bonus is -2/-2 with a shortsword in the off-hand and -4/-4 with a rapier in the off-hand.

This is how NWN works. I don't claim to be a big authority on D&D 3rd Ed rules, but I have the Players Handbook and this is also how I interpret the rules for 2-weapon fighting, although I admit it's not 100% clear-cut. NWN and the D&D rules could be at odds and this wouldn't be the only place where they were.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:08 am

Originally posted by limorkil
I thought I explained this adequately.

There are two aspects of weapons, WEIGHT and SIZE. By "Weight" I do not mean how much encumerance the weapon generates, although I can see how that is confusing because encumberance is called "Weight".

WEIGHT = Heavy, Medium, Light

SIZE = Large, Medium, Small

I am not talking about character size, although character size affects whether a weapon is large, medium or small to you (tiny, huge, etc.).

So, assuming a medium sized character (e.g. human, elf):

A short sword is both LIGHT and SMALL.

A rapier is LIGHT and MEDIUM.

With the "Weapon Finesse" feat you can apply your dexterity modifier to your attack with LIGHT weapons, which includes both short swords and rapiers.

When fighting with two weapons, regardless of whether you have any feats (i.e. "Two Weapon Fighting", "Ambidexterity") you get a bonus to attack of +2 main hand, +2 off-hand if your off-hand weapon is SMALL. Note: SMALL, not LIGHT. Short swords are SMALL, but rapiers are MEDIUM. The net effect of this, if you have both Two Weapon Fighting AND Ambidexterity, is that your attack bonus is -2/-2 with a shortsword in the off-hand and -4/-4 with a rapier in the off-hand.

This is how NWN works. I don't claim to be a big authority on D&D 3rd Ed rules, but I have the Players Handbook and this is also how I interpret the rules for 2-weapon fighting, although I admit it's not 100% clear-cut. NWN and the D&D rules could be at odds and this wouldn't be the only place where they were.

And I though I explained to you adequately that on p. 124 of the Player's Handbook, it clearly states that the off-hand weapon should be light, not small.

limorkil · Post by **limorkil** » Tue Jul 23, 2002 9:46 am

Originally posted by Astafas

And I though I explained to you adequately that on p. 124 of the Player's Handbook, it clearly states that the off-hand weapon should be light, not small.

As I said, I'm no expert on the 3rd Edition rules. I'm just stating 'the rules' of NWN that I determined by:
1. Reading the manual (which I admit doesn't mean much seeing as it's full of inaccuracies)
2. Reading the "?" texts in the game
3. What the numbers on the character sheet show me when I dual wield (again, not always accurate anyway)
4. What actually happens when I fight with various combos of dual-wield weapons.

Note that when you are higher level, or if you are a fighter (ranger/paladin/barb) then you can dual wield with any two one-handed weapons you want because the difference between -2/-2 and -4/-4 is hardly noticeable. The whole rapier thing only makes A BIT of difference at low levels when your attack bonuses suck.

Xanu · Post by **Xanu** » Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:03 pm

Ehm.

Dunno if it will help, but what I currently use as a lvl15 Ranger (yet to complete Luskan) are 2 Anguervals (sp.?) [+1-6 fire dam, 2+ enhance] - with weapon focus (longsword) + the usual ranger feats, improved dual weapon etc + improved critical; with those, my attack roll bonuses are 20&19, respectively.

Regarding armor, I was using a medium armor for sometime, till I found a Night Armor (or something like that), that's 2 base AC, +4 AC bonus, +5 Hide, and 5 allowable dex bonus (with my dex being 21 atm, that means +5 to rolls). It actually gives more AC than the previous armor, with more dex bonuses.

A question, is that I have 3 diff. boots - Striding (+3 con); Dragon something (+2 dex, imm. to fear & knockdown); and boots of speed. Which one should I use?

Mathurin · Post by **Mathurin** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 12:13 pm

OK guys again. Rapiers are not light weapons. The weapon finesse feat by 3rd Edition rules allows you to finesse all light weapons AND a few others. Rapiers are one of those other as are spiked chains. Thus rapiers can be finessed but arent light weapons. A light weapon is any weapon one size category smaller than your character size. Rapiers are medium weapons and thus not light to a medium character. This is why you take full -4/-4 penalties when wielding 2 of them. This is not made clear in the NWN manual or the text of the weapon finesse feat but this is how things work. When wielding 2 rapiers you can apply your dex mod to hit through weapon finesse but you will still take the stiffer penalties because rapiers are not light and thus will not get to use the lower penalties for two weapon fighting.