Baldur's Gate Titles?

ernme4vr · Post by **ernme4vr** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 10:53 am

I know it's hard to believe the title, but bear with me, ok? Just recently, after beating the Baldur's Gate games, I've put some thought into the choices of titles for all the games. I am a big person on choosing good titles. The titles for some of these games bug me. Mainly the BG series.

Baldur's Gate and Tales of the Sword Coast: Ahhh, Baldur's Gate. The Milestone that set it all. Really good game, nicely designed, blah, blah, blah. The expansion that we all know as TotSC, I personally think that it didn't have a bad name, really. You are legends across the Sword Coast. It fits.

Now, I come to what bugs me....

First, it's the Dark Alliance game for PS2. Ok, so you start in Baldur's Gate, but you only stay there for the first chapter. I know DA is not created by BioWare, but Interplay still had rights to it. If they had just called it Dark Alliance, it would have had a better allure in originality. I personally think Interplay was using the Baldur's Gate name/success in vain to sell a Diablo rip-off.

Second is the choice of calling SoA a sequel. I find that now the BG series is in a dead lock. Hopefully, a BG3 will be released, but there's a problem. We're all going to feel it's a continuation of the previous BG series, for it's got the BG3 tag on it. This is what I feel would have been a better title progression:

Baldur's Gate + TotSC <= This is what started it all. It fits, no questions asked. Good choice here.

Baldur's Gate: SoA + ToB <= Here we have the continuation of the Bhaal spawn story, and the closing of your legacy. You even play out Alandau's (spell check?) prophecy of the whole Bhaalspawn war. Note: I have not checked it to be a BG2, for it's a continuation, not a sequel.

Forgetten Realms: Dark Alliance <= Here is the result of Interplay's attempt of removing the DnD game series from BioWare. Before BG came in, you could ask a computer gamer what an RPG was, they'd list stuff like Diablo, Final Fantasy and that stuff. BG changed the way C.Gamers veiwed RPGs. Without the BioWare influence, the RPGs created by Interplay has fallen back to the Diablo premise. Now, I have not tried Pool of Radiance yet, so my opinion may be a bit biased at the moment.

Then, this is where the BG2 fits in. You start anew. Level 1, a whole new story is to be unfolded before you. The events of the previous BG games have taken effect on the world that is BG2. Then, the door is much more open to the possibilities of a sequel to Baldur's Gate series. I wish to hear what you people think about what I have posted here. I hope that the Moderators don't find this off-topic on me, please?

- King of Hearts

*I posted this exact thread in the BG2 board as "I've been thinking..", but I think this title will draw more attention?*

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 1:04 pm

I see your point and agree on the Dark Alliance thing. However, as for the BG1/BG2/BG3 stuff, I think doing it the way they are works fine as long as BG3 does start anew at level 1 with a new story but the world having been affected by the events in BG1 and BG2.

GandalfgalTTV · Post by **GandalfgalTTV** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 2:39 pm

You're probably right about drawning more attention this way.

I can see where you're coming from and I somewhat agree. But the way they're doing it is just sound marketing. And without a doubt it boosted sales.

EPKJ · Post by **EPKJ** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:27 pm

"Without the BioWare influence, the RPGs created by Interplay has fallen back to the Diablo premise."

This is not due to the BioWare influence. As evidence, note that BioWare just produced Neverwinter Nights. NWN is a Diablo clone. It does not resemble an Infinity engine CRPG at all. So, even BioWare has sold out.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:34 am

Originally posted by EPKJ
NWN is a Diablo clone. It does not resemble an Infinity engine CRPG at all. So, even BioWare has sold out.

What do you mean by "sold out"? Most people agree on NWN being a great RPG, offering lots of totally new possibilities. One kind of game doesn't necessarily exclude the other. And you have IWD2 coming out in probably about a month, remember?

Giant space ham · Post by **Giant space ham** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:57 am

If they do carry on the Baldurs gate series lets hope it actually takes place in Baldurs gate and maybe moving to Amn - after all why call it BG if you don't go there? I doubt Bioware will continue the series but if they do lets keep it 2D.

EPKJ · Post by **EPKJ** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 5:20 am

"What do you mean by "sold out"? Most people agree on NWN being a great RPG, offering lots of totally new possibilities. One kind of game doesn't necessarily exclude the other. And you have IWD2 coming out in probably about a month, remember?"

I mean exactly what I said. Bioware has sold out turn based, party oriented CRPG fans in favor of multi player, real time, shooters. By the way, I do not acknowledge your false premise that most people agree that NWN is a great game. Most people who I know hate it. One kind of game does necessarily exclude others. That is why genres exist. Finally, the fact that IWD2 is coming out does not change the fact that NWN was a sell out, and not the game which most gamers waited five years for.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 6:11 am

While NWN's successes have yet to be achieved by "the community" (as BioWare puts it), its failures have already been achieved by BioWare themselves. The game reminds me more of Diablo than Baldur's Gate. That's not good for a "ground breaking" roleplaying game.

Virgil57 · Post by **Virgil57** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 3:31 pm

NWN has a great concept, but it missed the mark. The SP module is okay I guess, but not great. The story is not on par with ANY of the IE games, even the hack-n-slash IWD was better IMO. Well, NWN was designed to be MP game with reall role playing DMing etc. This could have been really cool and I am sure some people will get it to work well. Unless you can find a group of dedicated people to play online at the same time on a regular basis, this game is really going to lose its luster. If you think that you can create a fun SP module, you probably could, but the absence of party/joinable NPCs makes the game far too dull IMO. As far as the toolset goes, you could customize things way better/faster by using TeamBG tools for the IE engine than you can using aurora.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:15 pm

Originally posted by EPKJ
[BI mean exactly what I said. Bioware has sold out turn based, party oriented CRPG fans in favor of multi player, real time, shooters. By the way, I do not acknowledge your false premise that most people agree that NWN is a great game. Most people who I know hate it. One kind of game does necessarily exclude others. That is why genres exist. Finally, the fact that IWD2 is coming out does not change the fact that NWN was a sell out, and not the game which most gamers waited five years for. [/b]

Whatever your opinion in the matter, NWN has on the whole been very well recieved - the reviews are positive and the game is selling well. Then, of course, after so many years of waiting, expectations are bound to be high and not all players are satisfied with the result.

Genres is a way to categorize different games, not to exclude them from your gaming experience. You could very well play games from different genres without any negative effects, fear not.

I actually prefer BG2 by far myself but think NWN is fun as well.

I still cannot see what makes NWN a "sell out". Under what obligation is Bioware to produce exactly the kind of game you ask for? Have they promised NWN to be anything else? To my knowledge, Bioware have been rather forthcoming with information about NWN already from the beginning.

I mentioned IWD2 in hope it would bring you some consolation but apparently I was wrong.

EPKJ · Post by **EPKJ** » Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:18 am

Originally posted by Astafas

Whatever your opinion in the matter, NWN has on the whole been very well recieved - the reviews are positive and the game is selling well. Then, of course, after so many years of waiting, expectations are bound to be high and not all players are satisfied with the result.

Genres is a way to categorize different games, not to exclude them from your gaming experience. You could very well play games from different genres without any negative effects, fear not. I actually prefer BG2 by far myself but think NWN is fun as well.

I still cannot see what makes NWN a "sell out". Under what obligation is Bioware to produce exactly the kind of game you ask for? Have they promised NWN to be anything else? To my knowledge, Bioware have been rather forthcoming with information about NWN already from the beginning.

I mentioned IWD2 in hope it would bring you some consolation but apparently I was wrong.

With regard to NWN, I returned the game, and personally know two others who have also returned the game. Based on my personal experience, not opinion, I would argue that without knowledge of returns one cannot accurately guage success. A bad product can make a profit. Witness "Attack Of The Clones" to be assured that this is true.

Categorization, by definition, involves exclusion. You really are on cloud nine with this line of argumentation.

Bioware promised a certain type of game for NWN, and then sold out and delivered another type of game. If five years ago, I had been told that NWN would be a Diablo clone, then I would not be upset now. They misled their customers.

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Tue Jul 23, 2002 12:18 pm

NWN

I think Bioware was depending on the customers to make modules for the game, rather than the built in game. Either that, or rely on the Dungeon Master in multiplayer....

IMO, more people are interested in a Diablo-esque game, rather then a *true* RPG like BG, or P:T. Bioware wanted sales and cash because money is what runs the world (at the moment).

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Tue Jul 23, 2002 12:36 pm

Originally posted by EPKJ

With regard to NWN, I returned the game, and personally know two others who have also returned the game. Based on my personal experience, not opinion, I would argue that without knowledge of returns one cannot accurately guage success. A bad product can make a profit. Witness "Attack Of The Clones" to be assured that this is true.

Categorization, by definition, involves exclusion. You really are on cloud nine with this line of argumentation.

Bioware promised a certain type of game for NWN, and then sold out and delivered another type of game. If five years ago, I had been told that NWN would be a Diablo clone, then I would not be upset now. They misled their customers.

Attack of the Clones didn't get many good reviews when it came out. Lots of people still bought a ticket. NWN actually got very good reviews, and lots of people bought it was well. There is a difference between the two. Now, if either the gaming press, or the customers, know a good game from a bad, who does? You?

Are you still talking about NWN? Let's for the arguments sake assume that NWN belongs to the genre "Diablo-clones" and that BG2 belongs to the genre "RPG". Now, do you honestly believe that there is something preventing you from taking advantage of both games because they belong tp different genres? That by playing NWN one day, you cannot play BG2 the second? Categorising them into different genres doesn't exclude them from your gaming. You, however, may choose to do that in case you don't like the game.

Do you have that promise in a contract? A game that takes five years to create is bound to change some - just look at Warcraft III.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:45 am

EPKJ: I pretty much knew what kind of game to expect when I went to buy NWN. There's plenty of information on the internet alone.

smass · Post by **smass** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:22 pm

Had to add my two cents - NWN was, from the beginning - promoted as a game that would attempt to duplicate the PNP experience of Dungeons and Dragons. That includes the multiplayer and Dungeon master dynamic that made D&D so popular in the first place. A roleplaying game can be done in one of two ways - either with scripts and AI as in the infinity engine games - or with other people in a multiplayer game. I won't start the argument as to which way is better - lets just say it is a matter of personal taste

NWN was promoted as a multiplayer experience with the ability for a DM to run the festivities and a module building tool that would allow DMs to create their own worlds. Near the end of production Bioware realized that they needed to include a single player campaign as a warmup for new players and near the very end they added henchmen to give some more atmosphere to the single player campaign.

If Bioware "sold out" then they did so 5 years ago when they first began to promote the game. They have delivered exactly what they promised.

smass · Post by **smass** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:34 pm

One more comment in reponse to the following quote:

The z wrote: "IMO, more people are interested in a Diablo-esque game, rather then a *true* RPG like BG, or P:T. Bioware wanted sales and cash because money is what runs the world (at the moment)."

Interesting - IMHO the only *true* rpg experience is one that you have with other humans. The infinity engine games did a great job of trying to recreate this experience with scripts and AI - but they are no substitute for real human roleplaying interaction. To say that a game that is meant to simulate something else is the *true* rpg doesn't make sense.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Jul 27, 2002 7:17 am

NWN is, however, not the 3E experience it was said to be. I've played games on a Commodore 64 that were more true to core D&D rules. NWN has slid towards the Diablo style. I do not call this "progress", I call that a sell-out. Saying that money makes the world go round only reinforces this.

About the single player campaign... BioWare set a standard with that. They set a standard for Diablo style modules with linear storylines that emphasize quantity over quality. I know the module was added later in the process, but that does not justify spending time on large hack-n-slash areas while the storyline and "feel" of the game are still sub-par. I'd have been much happier with a small but superbly crafted module.

smass · Post by **smass** » Sat Jul 27, 2002 12:45 pm

Xyx,

You will get your smaller and well crafted modules - they are in development now by hundreds of experienced DMs and other creative people.

Get out there and download some of them - I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

That is the promise of NWN - to create a game engine with that duplicates the "experience" of pen and paper roleplaying. No, it doesn't follow 3rd edition rules verbatim - that is not the point - it offers a framework for creative people to do what they do best.

Obike Fixx · Post by **Obike Fixx** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 5:38 pm

The Baldur's Gate series are OVER. Bioware has announced that no more Baldur's Gate games will be created.