Clash of Civilization

[HighLordDave]

Originally posted by fable
Why, I haven't slain anybody with a lightning bolt in over 3500 years! Give or take a few thousand...

A few thousand what? People? . . . or years?

[CM]

Fable see that is where the problem exists. The west has cordial relations with the governments of Islamic countries. But honestly how many of these govts are representative of the people. Malaysia is the only one that comes to mind and Indonesia to a lesser extent.

What is common between the Average Saudi and the Royal family? Nothing.
What is common among the Royal Family and Mubaraks family (Egypt)? Everything.
The governments of Islamic countries are not representative of the views of the people.
In all honesty do you think if Egypt and Jordan were democracies, would they still have relations with Israel?

Like i said in the integration thread, muslims come to the west not for social or cultural reasons. Rather economic.
We come for jobs, education and money.
And many go back to live in our societies.
Even when we live in the west, we dont consider us to be from that country.
I have family in the US, they consider themselves to be Pakistanis first.
Same with their kids, my nephews and neices.

As for relations with the people of the islamic world.
They are nothing but hostile on politics.
Israel, Kashmir, Afghanistan war on terrorism etc are all flash points.
If people were given a free voice in the Islamic world, you would be surprised by the level of hatred against the US and the west.
And ironically this is all across the social and economic spectrum.
The poor to the top 1%.
People arent happy with the US or the west, for supporting dictatorships and keeping double standards.

Politics is the major flash point.
I dont forsee a war between the religions on the scale of the crusades.
However i do forsee alot of problems.
There are social, economic, political and religious ones.
To highlight a few.

Muslims emphasise religion in the state.
The west does not.
Muslim emphasize our "islamic" laws over the western ones.
This is flash point as it discrimiantion.
Muslims laws for muslims and not for non/muslims.
Something not applicable in Western societies, where all the laws apply to everybody no matter what the religion.

Economic: Interest, Banking, Stock Market (different systems) etc.

Political is obvious.
Now back to work.

[fable]

Originally posted by HighLordDave


A few thousand what? People? . . . or years?

Yes.

[fable]

@CM, I never denied that there would continue to be major problems for Islamic regimes--in fact, I suggested earlier in this thread that political despotism was a major difficulty. (And perhaps the single greatest contributing factor to Islamic terrorism, IMO.) This doesn't necessarily suggest to me, however, that "the West vs Islam" is accessible to rational discourse, because by using a religion as its focus, the argument is invalid. Islam does not determine the political or economic focus of a given nation. Of course, "the wealthiest Amero-European nations vs Arabian nations" doesn't have the simplistic appeal that "the West vs Islam," but it does provide a better basis for discussion.

[CM]

Originally posted by fable
Of course, "the wealthiest Amero-European nations vs Arabian nations" doesn't have the simplistic appeal that "the West vs Islam," but it does provide a better basis for discussion.

LOL.
I just found that funny.
I have a weird sense of humor.

I agree that west and islam is simpler, but i guess i mis-read you. After all people are saying that there is no problem, i guessed you believed that too...I personally see problems in the future. Not an actual war between the two sides, or even a cold war. Rather a stuggle for power, over the international way things are handled.

However i disagree that Islam does not give a country political focus. It does and as seen in the past, countries align themselves according to religion. Take Bosnia for an example. The people there after the war and even during didnt wave flags of the US or Western Nations. Rather Saudi and Turkey were seen as natural allies and their flags were seen as symbols to unite under. Pakistan, Iran and Saudi actively funded and armed the Bosnians during the war, when the UN was doing nothing to help them. This was in Europe. Basic national interest suggested that Pakistan shouldnt care. Rather religion emphasized our national and foriegn policy when it came to Bosnia.

Similarly, Iran has no reason to arm and support Hizbollah, when Iran isnt affected by the war. Yet they do actively provide arms and support. Why did the average muslim rejoice when Pakistan tested nukes? Religion. For muslims religion is everything. It dictates national policy for all muslim countries. Of course that is my opinion

[fable]

Originally posted by CM


LOL.
I just found that funny.
I have a weird sense of humor.

Not at all. You have a refined, indeed, an astonishingly sophisticated sense of humor, precisely since I intended that to have a humorous touch. Just because we two exist in a vacuum of the silent, staring multitudes does not mean that they are right and we are wrong. Gods, no.

I don't deny that Islam (or any major religion) has a political dimension, so we're in agreement on this. I just feel that the equation of Islam = Arabs is crude, racist and wrong, and that pushing the Islamic religion to the forefront of the problems in the MidEast is unfair to many unique peoples and the issues they confront on a daily basis.