The absolute truth/lie

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 7:09 am

So who believes in it, i live my life seeing grey areas, after a tiresome conversation on Friday night it seems that people actually believe in absolutes, so who does and doesn't and why

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 7:17 am

So this is a spin off from the zeal thread? The one hour conversation?

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 7:34 am

Originally posted by Tamerlane
So this is a spin off from the zeal thread? The one hour conversation?

Indeed, i have had conversations go on a lot longer than an hour, but this one was a very long hour if that makes sense.

He couldn't grasp my definition of grey area in the same way i can't accept his definition of faith.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 7:41 am

Aah, well here is my 2cents. I'm a Catholic yet I hold an understanding of the grey areas as you refer to them. Some things in the Bible I just can't comprehend, such as the Creationism aspect. For example, it states that God created the Universe in seven days. I hold a twisted view of this such as that the seven days actually stand for seven periods spanning the time that the Universe was created according to the scientific research. However I still believe in God.

In the essence that this may turn into another religious thread, I'll be wary of posting again.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Aug 18, 2002 7:53 am

I am a bit confused in what to say.
I believe since we dont have absolute knowledge, there is no such thing as absolute truth.
However you are looking at things from a moral perspective etc.
I tend to see things in black and white, however i also believe holding such a perspective only leads to problems in todays world.
You have to see things in greys to survive in this world.
Like i hate to lie.
I dont lie.
I usually ignore the question or tell people that i dont want to tell them.
But i have been forced to lie on many occasions, to maintain a friendship or say not to hurt someones feelings on many serious topics.
I personally see this as a weakness but also realise that things must be seen in grey to live in this world.
But when it comes to acts of morality i am very black and white.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 8:03 am

I belive that there is an absolut "thruth" in everything and it is simply us as humans that causes the grey areas to occur when we don't understand/comprehend what is going on.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 8:09 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
So who believes in it, i live my life seeing grey areas, after a tiresome conversation on Friday night it seems that people actually believe in absolutes, so who does and doesn't and why

The only absolute I believe in...Mankind can be wrong.

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 8:12 am

Re: Re: The absolute truth/lie

Originally posted by Weasel

The only absolute I believe in...Mankind can be wrong.

Thats true.

No I kind of believe in absolute truth-meaning that there are answers to everything, and everything happens for a reason. The only way I could say why is, I have faith in God and I feel he has everything well in control. Its a question of faith. (Something I always seems to say in religeous threads

)

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 8:19 am

Assuming truth and lie as a valorative imposition, I think is dificult to talk in absolute valorations when we are not in a personal restrictions.

Also this kind of conception, that do not exist absolute valorations, is more interesting for me since represent a merit of the open-minded(I'm not too much open-minded, but I try).

This link is interesting: "On Truth and Lie in an Extra-Moral Sense"-Nietzsche(translated)

"What, then, is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms—in short, a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are; metaphors which are worn out and without sensuous power; coins which have lost their pictures and now matter only as metal, no longer as coins"-Nietzsche

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:14 am

That is a fascinating link, i am not surprised Nietzche has a grand following. I will give my thoughts on it later when i have time. Thanks Delacroix

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:55 am

Oh man, this topic will lead us towards another convoluted discussion. Essentially, the Law of Non-Contradiction, which is commonly used to defend the idea that there is an Absolute Truth, cannot be contradicted. The moment you deny it, it clobbers you. For example;

Slim Shady: Absolute truth exists!

Mr. Sleep: No, absolute truth does not exist!

Slim Shady: Are you absolutely positive that absolute truth does
not exist?

Mr. Sleep: Yes, I am absolutely positive that absolute truth does not exist.

Slim Shady: Then it must be absolutely true that absolute truth does not exist?

Mr. Sleep: Yes. It is the absolute truth that absolute truth does not exist.

Slim Shady: But absolute truth does not exist!

Mr Sleep: Are you absolutely positive that absolute truth does
not exist?

Slim Shady: Yes, I am absolutely positive absolute truth does not exist.

Mr Sleep: Then it must be absolutely true that absolute truth does not exist!

Slim Shady: Yes. It is the absolute truth that absolute truth does not exist.

Mr. Sleep: But absolute truth does not exist!

... and so on and so forth, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 11:40 am

Originally posted by EMINEM
Oh man, this topic will lead us towards another convoluted discussion. Essentially, the Law of Non-Contradiction

Not really, i would never presume to say there definately isn't an absolute truth for i am not wise enough to know such things, i would have a guess that there wasn't but if someone has evidence otherwise then i would be happy to look at that, at the moment i would say that at best your Law of Non-Contradiction is just a simple way of getting out of the arguement...

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 12:22 pm

I believe in individual truth in some situations. There are so many people, with so many views, that I think it would be diffucult to pin down anything as being absolutly true IF that truth is based on the interpretation of outside information. In my experience, many times what someone hold to as truth is based from a cultural, or regional standpoint. It is all in the views they hold, and the resulting order of importances that is assigned to certain segments of their lives. I guess what I mean to say is that philisophically, I believe their to be no absolute truth in the sense that everyone across the board bellieves one specific thing to be true and holds that as a universal truth.

But in other aspects, not involving philosophy, there are things that cannot be disputed in the natural order of things. For an example, I would say that it is absolutely true that we need to breathe to live

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 12:24 pm

There is only one answer to this question ...

Read my sig. That is as true as it gets. No getting around it. No room for doubt. No possibility of misinterpretation.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 2:08 pm

Re: There is only one answer to this question ...

Originally posted by Lazarus
Read my sig. That is as true as it gets. No getting around it. No room for doubt. No possibility of misinterpretation.

There is always a way of "getting around it". So A is A? What about someone who doesn't know the English alphabet, A is not A to them, say this person has no concept to language, A would mean nothing to them. "A" is something we are taught, not something that is intrinsically true or faulse.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 2:12 pm

This is how I view things:

Objective truth = something is true outside and independant of human perception, ie not only true depending on the spectator.

Yes, this I believe in.

Absolute truth = something is always and under all circumstances true.

No, we don't have data that support this view, like CM says our knowledge if too limited.

@MM: I think your example is a play with words and rhetorics, it is not a contradiction not to believe in absolute truth, you present it as a contradiction just because you pretend that the "mr Sleep" in your example has an absolute belief that absolute truth does not exist, something I think very few people have if the don't believe in absolute truth.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 2:22 pm

CM had a good point, we do all have to breathe to live and yes that is an absolute truth, just like we all have to take in sustenance, but more esoteric theorums can not be ascribed absolutes...*goes off to read Delecroix's link*

I was quite disturbed to see my name used so flagrantly

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 2:32 pm

I never thought i would be quoting Nietzsche but here goes:

"What, then, is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms—in short, a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are; metaphors which are worn out and without sensuous power; coins which have lost their pictures and now matter only as metal, no longer as coins."

I think this mostly sums up my feelings...

As with most Nietzsche passages i have read it usually ends up being an anti establishment anarchic message but he was very insightful at times...before you ask i haven't read that much of his work

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 2:55 pm

You have to look a bit harder than that

Originally posted by Mr Sleep

There is always a way of "getting around it". So A is A? What about someone who doesn't know the English alphabet, A is not A to them, say this person has no concept to language, A would mean nothing to them. "A" is something we are taught, not something that is intrinsically true or faulse.

Perhaps a bit further explanation is required. A is A is not meant to be taken quite so literally. It is not referencing the specific letter A. What it's implication is, is: everything that exists is what it is, and that it has a specific, knowable, perceivable, finite character.

I think someone mentioned that things can get "grey" where humans are concerned, and to an extent I would agree. However, I firmly believe that all this "grey" which humans create for themselves is nothing more than a series of black and white. And the REASON that everything must devolve into black and white is BECAUSE A is A.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 3:00 pm

Re: You have to look a bit harder than that

Originally posted by Lazarus
I think someone mentioned that things can get "grey" where humans are concerned, and to an extent I would agree. However, I firmly believe that all this "grey" which humans create for themselves is nothing more than a series of black and white. And the REASON that everything must devolve into black and white is BECAUSE A is A.

I am not sure that i live within the realm of an underlying absolute truth, i have no reason to think either way. Your evidence seems to be on point but when i look at a situation i don't see it as completely one way or another, if anything i always see the "middle ground between light and shadow"

I do however agree that a great deal of the grey area is created by humans and by questioning. I am not sure if it is necessarily a bad thing though.

I see where you are coming from, i just don't necessarily agree