Pure Assassin vs. Kensai/Thief

Pungyol · Post by **Pungyol** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 8:47 am

Hi guys! Well, I've played a couple of games with different classes. And I have to say that I've had an easier time through the game with my KENSAI/THIEF, even better than my BERSERKER/MAGE. I really love thieves because of their unparalleled BACKSTABBING ability.

Now, my query with you guys is - Since I really love BACKSTABBING that much, and I heard that ASSASSINS --> beside having the POISON WEAPON ability which incerases in the speed of damage dealt in higher levels, can also do x7 BACKSTABS in higher levels.

Is it really worth it to play a PURE ASSASSIN? How does it compare with the KENSAI/THIEF when it deals damage? I'm pretty sure that you know how much damage a KENSAI/THIEF can do, right? With his KAI ability.

What do you think? Who is the most LETHAL backstabber between the two?
KENSAI/THIEF vs. PURE ASSASSIN

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 9:22 am

The problem with the Kai ability is that it's slower to activate. The poison ability is virtually instantaneous. Plus, it lasts a while, enabling you to poison multiple targets on a single activation.

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There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 9:48 am

Kensai/Thief will deal out the most damage in the actual backstabs because the Kensai bonuses get multiplied. With Kai, he's also consistent as you know that d10 for Celestial Fury will be a 10, not a 1.

Poison however is nice as it continues to do damage and will disrupt spellcasting.

Of the two, I prefer Kensai/Thief as he gets an extra attack...two extra attacks if you don't dual until level 13. Some monsters can't be backstabbed.

@Sojourner: Kai is instantaneous and can be activated from the shadows just before the backstab.

RiPPeR · Post by **RiPPeR** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 11:05 am

the problem with kensai/thief is that they cant use any armor, this makes them to have a max amor class about -2 wich sucks

sigurd · Post by **sigurd** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 11:16 am

Also remember a kensai/thief must be human, missing out on all the extra abilities of other races, as well as thieves bonuses

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 11:44 am

@Ripper: Kensai can use the Shield Amulet for base AC 4. Kensai/Thieves can use the Shadow Armor from Mae'var for base AC 4 and +15% hide in shadows and still wear an amulet. The best AC armor an Assasin can wear is AC 3 (several options) so that's only 1 AC difference...since the Kensai gets a +2 AC bonus, the Kensai/Thief has the better AC.

@sigurd: True. IMO the extra attacks, extra hp, extra AC and better damage more than outweigh the racial bonuses.

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 04-06-2001).]

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 12:07 pm

Originally posted by Nighthawk:
The best AC armor an Assasin can wear is AC 3 (several options) so that's only 1 AC difference

Not true: The armor made from the Shadow Dragon scales is considered studded leather, and has AC=1.

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There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 12:11 pm

Just one thing I don't get - why do you want a kensai/thief when you can be a berseker/thief. That way you will be able to use the shadow dragons skales, and do reasanoble amounts if dmg with berseker rage on.

RiPPeR · Post by **RiPPeR** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 12:45 pm

nighthawk, i did a kensai/thief and equiped him with shadow armor using the shadowkeeper and the armor wasnt avaliable to use, why do you say kensai/thief can use this armor? you have ever tested this?

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 2:06 pm

RiPPeR,

Are you certain you equipped him with the Shadow Armor, and not the Shadow Dragon Scale? They're right next to each other in Shadowkeeper's Item list.

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There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...

RiPPeR · Post by **RiPPeR** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 2:15 pm

it was shadow armor for sure, i havent tried to equip since it was red, but i will try it again

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Fri Apr 06, 2001 5:18 pm

RiPPeR,

I forgot, I don't have the official patch applied, which may prevent the Kensai/thief from wearing the Shadow armor.

Nighthawk,

I created a Kensai/thief and an Assassin in a multiplayer game with the same stats and sword for comparison. I stand by my previous statement: Kai IS slower to activate than poison. Also, I timed the duration for both: ~30 seconds for the poison (That's a long time!) and ~10 seconds for the Kai. If you dual the Kensai at lvl 9, you only get 3 uses of Kai. However, the Kensai/thief does get an impressive THACO bonus.

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There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...

Siike · Post by **Siike** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 7:47 am

K/T wearning shadow armor is really just another bug abuse, just as K/M wearing robes, all are considered armors.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 8:47 am

Originally posted by Siike:
K/T wearning shadow armor is really just another bug abuse, just as K/M wearing robes, all are considered armors.

The patch fixes the bug that allowed kensai/thieves to wear the shadow armour. Robes however is a different matter and can still be worn by kensai/mages as the should be. This is not a bug it is intended.

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Proud member of the Brotherhood of the woods.

RiPPeR · Post by **RiPPeR** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 8:56 am

robes aren't a weight for the kensai/mages, so i think they should still be using robes

Pungyol · Post by **Pungyol** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 11:24 am

Bruce Lee,

I also have the patch installed but the shadow armor is still red or is not usable by my Kensai/Thief. I'm kinda confused right now.

Originally posted by Bruce Lee:
The patch fixes the bug that allowed kensai/thieves to wear the shadow armour. Robes however is a different matter and can still be worn by kensai/mages as the should be. This is not a bug it is intended.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 12:17 pm

Pungyol,

What Bruce Lee meant was the patch fixed the bug with the Shadow Armor so that it is no longer wearable by the kensai/thief.

I do not have the patch installed, so a kensai/thief in my game can wear the Shadow armor. It's a bug I've never exploited, because if I were to play a fighter/thief, I would choose to dual-class a berserker, instead. I prefer the pure-class thief.

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There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...

Siike · Post by **Siike** » Sun Apr 08, 2001 12:41 am

Originally posted by RiPPeR:
<STRONG>robes aren't a weight for the kensai/mages, so i think they should still be using robes</STRONG>

I disagree, robes are considered armor, they are listed as armor in shadow keeper and they are worn as armor. The bug occurs because all robes are "usable only by mages (multi and dual-class also)" as is shadow armor (usable only by thieves...)

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 7:14 am

I guess I ought to install the patch. My K/T is using Mae'var's armor. Also, I forgot about Shadow Dragon Scale since I only double checked on the leather armors section here which ends up giving the Assasin an AC advantage of 1 or 1 and an amulet after the patch.

@Sojourner: Kai is pretty fast, I've activated it in the middle of combat without missing a swing with my Kensai. I don't know why it seems slow for you.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:04 am

Nighthawk: I've tested the kensai's kai vs. the assassin's poison, and it is always slower. I tried playing a kensai once, and tried to have him activate his kai in the heat of battle. It was disrupted!

I decided I liked playing armor-wearing classes better.

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Sojourner ]