Making the best Ranger, forget logbows and stick to short bows?

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 11:33 am

i actually do less than 8 with short bows..cause i had to hit a few goblins twice to kill them with a short bow and always once with a long bow

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 12:13 pm

Hmm...maybe there is something undocumented here. Of course, that assumes the people you had using the long and short bows were identical: My archer never had trouble dropping goblins in one shot with her short bow but I've seen them survive long bow hits from Minsc.

As far as the damage, either one with normal arrows should do d6 damage. A Composite Longbow will do +1 damage but a normal does not. I believe Grand Mastery is +2 damage (maybe +3?)

So, in the first dungeon with basic weapons either bow should do an average of 5.5/shot or 8.5/shot in the hands of an Archer. These sound a bit low, so maybe something is missing from the equation.

BTW, in addition to the +1 attack, I just noticed that the Tuigan also gets +1 damage so I corrected the above equations.

If you're looking for max damage/shot, try a Heavy Crossbow of Searing with Bolts of LiIghtning.

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 03-07-2001).]

Jeru da`Damaja · Post by **Jeru da`Damaja** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 1:23 pm

wow did i pick a hot topic or what you guys still got me going back and forth, i guess ill make 2 archers, one long bow artist and on short bow artist, sounds like both are great,hehe.

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 1:37 pm

BTW..There is a mana bow +4...dont know if it counts as a +4 weapon since I dont know where it is to try it out...maybe i will use shadowkeeper to load it and see if it can hit kangaxx. (its a longbow)

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 2:11 pm

genesis i think its in the forest of tethir
i'am not sure though and i think you need a 4 + arrow to hit kangaxx not a four up bow
yours rowdin.

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 3:09 pm

Rowdin/Genesis: Yes, the Mana Bow +4 is a +4 bow, but it doesn't turns its arrows into +4 arrows and the arrow is what counts for ability to damage. +20% magic resist is nice, but it doesn't give any bonus to damage. So we're still without a Long Bow that can hit not only Gaxx, but the Balor, Greater Mummies, some Vampires, maybe the Ta'nari, maybe Greater Wolfweres, etc.

For the Mummies and Vampires you can at least do some damage by using arrows of fire though.

It's too bad Archer's can't get grand mastery with slings: Everard + Seeking would end the debate IMO.

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 3:48 pm

But what we really need are some good quality
bow men to fight, all the game gives us are cannon fodder.Your mages are never in any real danger
of beening killed.Good bow men would more likely
target your mages. bg1 had some, good ones at least. yours rowdin.

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:24 pm

Look... if for no other reason, this is why I use the Tansheron bow, and later the short bow of Gesen:

They're the only bows in the game that can hit creatures immune to +3 or lower weapons.

The only ones. I can't stress that enough. The Strongarm and Heartseeker bows are great, but your archer is then worthless against Kangaxx, greater mummies, vampires (not fledgling), liches with mantle, any type of Tanar'ri, and virtually any other of the myriad monsters in BG2 that have magical immunities.

Arrows of piercing are indeed +4, but only considered to be +2 weapons with regards to what they can hit.

Once more, I strongly recommend going the short bow path. You can get the Tuigan bow from the beastmaster, during the slaver quest, almost as soon as you emerge from Irenicus' dungeon. In Trademeet, which you can learn the location of from one of its locals in the Gate district, you can purchase the Tansheron bow. Like the Gesen bow, it requires no ammunition, and fires +3 arrows. It can easily tide you over until later in the game when you can acquire the Gesen. Trust me.

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:29 pm

Originally posted by Genesis:
hmmm...im not sure what bows you are using but I am certain that long bows do a heck more damage than short bows magical or no...for example in irenicus dunguen using a short bow i do about 8 to 11 pts of damage. with a long bow i do about 11 to 15 pts of damage...this is on regular hits.

Simple. The only longbows you can get in Irenicus' dungeon are composite ones, which allow you to add your strength bonus to the damage they inflict. Since they require an 18 strength to wield at all, it's natural that your character did more damage with one than he otherwise would with a shortbow. The only magical composite bow is the Strongarm, which makes it very powerful. On that, we are in agreement. For all its juicy power, tho, it's still worthless against any of the aforementioned monsters.

[This message has been edited by TheHellion (edited 03-07-2001).]

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:54 pm

Originally posted by TheHellion:
[BThe only longbows you can get in Irenicus' dungeon are composite ones, which allow you to add your strength bonus to the damage they inflict.
...
The only magical composite bow is the Strongarm, which makes it very powerful. On that, we are in agreement. For all its juicy power, tho, it's still worthless against any of the aforementioned monsters.[/b]

I thought Comp bows just did a couple extra damage. If in fact they allow you to add your strength bonus -- which even with a bow can be as much as 7 -- I think this would put the Strongarm ahead of the Tuigan against most enemies.

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 5:39 pm

Originally posted by Nighthawk
I thought Comp bows just did a couple extra damage. If in fact they allow you to add your strength bonus -- which even with a bow can be as much as 7 -- I think this would put the Strongarm ahead of the Tuigan against most enemies.

I don't think anyone contests that. The Strongarm is, without question, the most damaging bow in the game. Even with regular arrows, it would do more damage than just about any other bow, even if that bow had arrows +2 loaded into it.

I suppose it all boils down to preference. You'll either have a powerful archer that's unable to damage most any powerful creature, or you'll have a slightly weaker archer that can hit and damage virtually anything. For me, nothing is more frustrating than hearing "My weapon has no effect!" over and over, so I suggest the latter route. It's still a possibility to go with the Strongarm if you have other party members capable of smacking around tough enemies on their own, but your archer will have to take a back seat to the action. Bear in mind, also, that using the Strongarm will require that you have a belt of giant strength. In that case, I'd recommend being a pure ranger as opposed to an archer; a belt of giant strength is wasted on a character that can't hurt toughies, so you'll want to be able to specialize in some kind of melee weapon for those instances. It should make for a nice, well-rounded character.

Jeru:
If you'd like to try out both routes, see my previous post for a link to download Shadow Keeper. With it, you can put five stars into both long bows and short bows, so you can decide for yourself which one you like better.

Giles the Sorcerer · Post by **Giles the Sorcerer** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 6:55 pm

Wouldn't the easiest fix be put a point into a two handed melee weapon?

TheHellion · Post by **TheHellion** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 8:03 pm

Originally posted by Giles the Sorcerer:
Wouldn't the easiest fix be put a point into a two handed melee weapon?

I'm not sure that you're refering to my post, but for my ego's sake I'll pretend that you are.

That's a posibility, though not the most sound one. An archer can't specialize in anything but bows; he could only be proficient in a melee weapon. It's not too great a hindrance, but still makes an archer less effective in close combat. Archers also can't wear anything heavier than studded leather armor, which makes them pretty vulnerable. The Night's Gift +5 and black dragon scale are great armors, but still can't compare to red dragon scale, or some of the heavier plate mails.

Hazim ibn Gorion · Post by **Hazim ibn Gorion** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 8:23 pm

Regarding the issue of archers using slings, I'm pretty sure that the 2-point limitation on slings for archers is a glitch. According to the PnP rules, they should be able to advance beyond specialization in any weapon that uses projectiles. A similar glitch exists in the Swashbuckler kit, which should allow you to put 2 points in katana, but only allows one. It's either poor programming or poor rule implementation. In short, I think you could use Shadowkeeper to adjust your archer sling proficiencies and not feel guilty about it...overriding programming errors is not cheating, IMO.

Radek · Post by **Radek** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 4:57 am

Longbows suck. Sorry. The problem is with abailable arrows. You can find a +4 bow but the bow will act as a weapon of the same level as the arrow level. The Mana Bow +4 equipped together with normal arrows gives you +4 bonus to thac0 but it will act as a normal non-magical bow.
There are NO arrows better than +2. Please note: arrows of biting give you +4 to thac0 but they are NOT a +4 ammunition. Therefore, you'll be able to hit only those monsters that can be hit by +2 weapon. And only if you are using +2 arrows. I am not sure which arrows (except Arrows +2) are +2.
Therefore, Strong Arm is nice - as far as you can hit the victim with an at most +2 weapons. Some demons need +3 weapon. Adamantine and Iron Golems need +3 weapon.
On the other hand, Tansheron's Bow (a short bow) used without ammo acts like a REAL +3 weapon: the "phantom arrows" are +3. The Bow of Gesen acts like a REAL +4 weapon. The bolts it fires are +4. That's why these bows are better than any long bow. The "no ammo" ability is not the reason. If I were able to buy +3 or +4 arrows somewhere I would forget Tansheron's Bow, etc., immediately. Long bows are more effective. Well, there are no +3 arrows in the game.
The same is correct for slings. Sling of Seeking is nice but its level equals to the level of the bullets fired from the sling. Therefore, +2 at most. The Sling of Everard used without ammo is a REAL +5 weapon. That's why the Sling of Everard is better than any other sling in the game. The fact that the Sling of Everard needs no ammo is unimportant.

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 6:23 am

@Nighthawk, given that the Strongarm bow adds strength bonuses and requires minimum 19 strength to draw, you need to add 28 points damage to your scenario above, making total damage about 104. On single critical hits with Strongarm, I've done in excess of 50 points damage. Thanks, BTW for puting so much thought and effort into your reply. Good job!

And when I need +4 or better weapons to hit, I switch to dual weilding Daystar and Flametongue. My archer gets hit more with only Shadow Dragon Scale, but most opponents don't last long....

[This message has been edited by Saigo (edited 03-08-2001).]

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 6:52 am

Cool I'm glad you are all interesting in this topic...I think everyone has been right so far and it boils down to preference...my archer uses the strongbow and I have done over 50 pts of dmg (last night) on crit hits and i avg 16 to 20 pts per hit at 3 per round level 9. But the key is you can still use other weapons that WILL hit Vampires and other monsters immune to your arrows...i am currently dualing daystar and flame tounge (when i need to) which makes you a more useful char than just standing back doing miniscule(comparatively) with a short bow.

[This message has been edited by Genesis (edited 03-08-2001).]

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 10:07 am

Since you really only need a melee weapon as a backup, couldn't you put 5+ in Longbows, 2+ in Slings (Everard) or Shortbows (Gessen) and still have a + for your melee weapon. Maybe even a couple more points left over? How many points do rangers get at cap anyway?

I'm still going to have to test out that Str bonus thing for myself. I may Shadowkeeper in the Longbow skill then switch back and forth for a while.

two · Post by **two** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 11:22 am

Originally posted by Genesis:
Cool I'm glad you are all interesting in this topic...I think everyone has been right so far and it boils down to preference...my archer uses the strongbow and I have done over 50 pts of dmg (last night) on crit hits and i avg 16 to 20 pts per hit at 3 per round level 9. But the key is you can still use other weapons that WILL hit Vampires and other monsters immune to your arrows...i am currently dualing daystar and flame tounge (when i need to) which makes you a more useful char than just standing back doing miniscule(comparatively) with a short bow.

[This message has been edited by Genesis (edited 03-08-2001).]

Can somebody double-check this? I am not in a position to do so at the moment.

Is it true that this longbow called StrongArm allows you to add strength damage to arrow damage? For example if you str. bonus is +10dam, a standard arrow will do 1d6+10 plus proficiency bonuses and stuff?

Are you sure the criticals doing 50+ were not just because you are grand-master in it+an archer? Strength did play a role in the total damage?

If this is true, and an archer uses called shot ability, and you get three shots per round, and you use good arrows like peircing, you could do what, 50*3=150dam/round? If you are imp. hasted you could drop a dragon in 2 rounds or less. Is this true? Makes an archer suddenly seem pretty gnarly.

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 12:14 pm

two, check out Nighthawk's math above for the Strongarm bow. 17.5 damage is a good average, but I always do closer to 25 points per attack. The 19 strength (+7 damage) would be what makes the difference. Double that for critical hits, and you get @ 50pts damage. 150pts per round is unlikely, but possible. Still, the average should be closer to 100 (4 attacks @ 25 pts).