Bad NPC classes

[MasterDarkNinja]

has anyone else noticed how that everyone in your group (mainly the good and neutral characters) are usually the worst class of their class group that there is in the game? since take a look at everyone
Imoen- duel classed, would have been better as a pure thief (or pure mage
Minsc- is just like a fighter so shouldn't he be that instead based on how that he acts? (or an archer but that won't be that good based on how he acts and talks about his sword)
Jaheria- a multiclassed fighter and druid with a low score for both of her main stats
Aerie- a multiclassed cleric/mage that is weak, it would of been better to be just one of the 2
Nalia- became a thief too early, she would of been better as a pure thief (or pure mage)
Anomen- has a good class from his fighting skills but has low wisdom
Korgan- nothing wrong with him really he's a Berserker, the only disadvanage really is not being able to use arch weapons
Viconia- a great cleric but is weak based on armor that can be worn, she needs a belt to incrase her strength to be good, she could also be a good thief with her stats but is still a good cleric
Jan- he is physically weak but the best thief in BG2
Valygar- not maxed on in constitustion, he would of been better as an archer.
Keldorn- is an inquisitor which I think is the weakest paladin class. he should of been an undead hunter.
Haer Dalis'- is the worst type of bard with the most penaties, a Jester or Skald would of been better
Edwin- the best wizard in the game with his hacked necklace (and he's evil and evil NPC's are built much better then good and neutral NPC's)
Cernd- a shapshifter who can't wear ANY armor, he should of been an avenger I think.
Mazzy- doesn't have enough strength for a fighter, she should of been a thief based on her stats.
Yoshimo- not a good NPC at all replace him as soon as possible

so does everyone else think about this? I've noticed this when trying to assmble the best BG2 party based on classes that my guy is. I use the evil 3 in my party (and the evil NPC in TOB to who has ctrl shift 8 stats with 13 points taken away from it)

[VonDondu]

I don't see things the same way that you do. You can put any five of the NPCs and win the game. They don't have the best stats in the whole entire universe, but it wouldn't be realistic if they did. They're characters, not perfect representations of their respective classes. NPCs just don't have stats as great as the ones that most players settle for when they create their own personal characters.

FWIW, Yoshimo has great stats for a Thief: STR 17, DEX 18, CON 16. You can't get much better than that. Or are you complaining because he's a Bounty Hunter?

You say that Mazzy "doesn't have enough strength for a fighter, she should have been a thief based on her stats," but it wouldn't make any sense at all for a character like her to be a Thief. When she was created, they didn't start with her stats and decide what she was going to be; they started with her personality, her character, and her race and made her a very interesting character. Would you expect a halfling to have 18 STR?

Same with Viconia. You look at her stats and say she could have been a Thief, but again, it just wouldn't make any sense.

The new NPC in Throne of Bhaal (who you shouldn't name because it's a spoiler for people who haven't bought the expansion) is practically off the scale when it comes to stat points. I've NEVER rolled a Fighter with such high stats; it would probably take a week of constant rerolling.

We've had a discussion about Paladin kits in another message thread. A lot of people think that Undead Hunters are great when you first start playing Shadows of Amn, but when my own character reaches 30th Level, I'd rather have an Inquisitor, or a 30th Level Cleric, for that matter.

If Cernd should have been an Avenger instead of a Shapeshifter, does that mean that no one should play a Shapeshifter? Then we might as well get rid of the kit. But I know people who don't feel that way about it.

I do agree with you to some extent, though. If I want a REALLY powerful group, I roll up custom characters, or else I edit the NPCs to make them just like the custom characters I'd want in my party. For example, I sometimes make Nalia a Conjurer, Aerie an Illusionist, or Imoen a 9th Level Thief dualled to a Conjurer (like she was when I played BG1). I've made Minsc a Berserker before; it suits him. (And I don't miss the missile weapons, because he never uses them, anyway. He doesn't go around saying, "Evil, meet my bow!" or, "Arrows, not words!" you know.)

[Delita]

I don't think they wanted to give you awesome NPCs. If you made your own party full of rolled characters, you'd whoop about everything. If you get huge rolls like I do, usually 4 18s and plenty to spare, your characters would be godly.

I think that if you think about it, these guys are really your average heroes, they're all pretty average.

Keldorn's a normal paladin if you ask me and Anomen is too (cept he's not really a paladin). Viconia is an average dark elf, high Dex.
Yoshimo's a wildcard, you can pick him off if you want but it won't do ya much good later on.

I actually made a Blade with 18, 18, 18, 13, 9, 18 and he kills practically everything with offensive spin.

I think Caveliers are the best Paladins in the game, in fact I beat the game easily using mine.

[gnomethingy]

Just to clarify...

All Paladin kits completly rocks, in any part of the game.

By tob, an undead hunter with mediocre stats is as good a fighter as anyone
simply becouse of strength belt + Dahm giving him 25 strength, ie +14 to damage

Cavaliers for the same reasons and more

Inquisitors a little mediocre at fighting by this stage, compared to the uber fighter (Barbarians, Kensais ect) but insta true sight / double lvl dispell makes up for it easily

But how can you truthfully argue that these npc's dont have bad stats for a reason?

mazzy? has innate improved haste abilitiy, thats a sixth lvl wizard spell!!

Hear'dalis has two ** in short swords

Viconia has 60% mr

Jahera knows several clerical spells she shouldnt be able to cast

Minsc has innate bezerk ability (And doesnt really have bad stats at all)

Anomen gets gets a wisdom boost due to in game occurances I wont mention

Jan has a large amount of really cool items and can make flashers

Valygar starts with the second best Katana in soa and the *Best* non metal armour in the whole game

Imoen and Nalia being duel classed is a good thing, they can get by theiving with the right items and potions.. and use better missle weps between spell casting (Gesen, tansheron and Tuigan bow come to mind)... They also get more hp's

I could go on, but im bored now...

[Jaesha]

@VonDondu: Couldn´t have put it better myself.
All NPC´s have their pros and cons, but at the end of the day most of them are really cool, ESPECIALLY compared to those of other games!!
Nice new av by BTW, Von.

[UserUnfriendly]

I change them...i usually turn jahiera into berserker druid, or totemic fighter, and minsc into archer...

jan was around as assassin mage for a while, but the turnip jokes ticked me off, so i killed him...

aerie is great as priest of lathander mage, or conjuror cleric...i like giving immie high level traps, as experiments of her as single class assassin didnt work out too well...

finally, have to agree about inquisitor being worst class pally....

chavalier is by far the best....charm immunity, so you can equipp helm of brilliance when you get it, thus you are effective against undead, and ring of free action makes the inquisitor hold immunity moot...but both chav and undead have draw on holy might...single best reason for pally...at higher levels, it makes your ac untouchable, and the damage boost is incredible....

[serjeLeBlade]

I wouldn't say all NPC have bad kits or stats, but some of them have some annoying quirks indeed.

To say some....

1) I liked Imoen as a thief in BG1 and I would have liked to have a choice in the matter of dualling her!
She was in my party 'til the end after all! One could ask, when she dualled??
(During a vacation between BG1 and BG2, I suppose?)

2) HaerDalis has a low score in Lore and a limited bardsong, which substantially leaves you without a bard NPC.
Oh, yes, he has two * in short sword. Great. Mazzy has four, if you like masters in short sword!
(Just to say, let the fighters do the fighting, bards are supposed to help in different ways)

3) The whole stalker kit (Valygar) looks somewhat wrong to me. What good could do "protection from missiles" and "minor spell turning" to someone supposed to hide in shadows all the time? (Just think if he had spells like Strength, Invisibility, Improved Invisibility instead).
And, ok "limited ability to backstab", but he doesn't get it at all until level 9! And he doesn't get the spells until level 12! But he gets the penalities from the beginning!
That's not so fair, don't you think?

4) I'd like to hear from anyone who would choose Cernd over Jaheira for whatever reason...

5) I like Mazzy as she is, but a good halfling thief wouldn't have been bad. Same for an elven thief with 19 dex. We still miss a decent thief in the whole BG2/ToB saga.

6) Minsc starts with ** in dual wielding but the only one-handed weapon he can use is the mace
Again, players (like me) who had him in the party throughout BG1 should have been allowed to keep the weapon proficiencies they selected for him in the first place, imho...

Ok, I'm done with the whining... I needed it anyway

[MasterDarkNinja]

actually I for some people like Korgan I was more desperate then others to think of something bad about them (Korgan is evil one of my points is the evil characters are better built)
but take a look at these main NPC's that I think are some of the worst in BG2 for reasons already stated
Cernd- the shapeshifter is the worst druid class
Keldorn- I say that the inquisitor is the worst paladin class and that the undead hunter is the best
Haer Dalis'- the weakest bard class, song doesn't improve with levels and lower lore (I admit that I never used bards though)
Jaheira- multiclassed and I found her to be quite weak at fighting when I used her
Jan- multi classed but he is still the best thief in the game so I use him just for that (and the jokes)
Yoshimo- I warn you to replace him as soon as possible or else you will regret it later even if he is the only pure thief in the game.

those are the really weak NPC's that bug me. ever notice that the weaker people usually have the more entertaining dialogue? like Jan. and I had to get rid of Minsc in TOB.

also I got rid of TOB's NPC name.

[Delita]

I don't really like Bard Song in BG, it's basically useless if you want your bard to attack or cast, you can't use bard song.

Usually bard song gives bonuses that help you fight but it's worthless if the bard can't fight or cast in battle while you're using it.

Also, I don't think lore really helps at all. It just makes you waste time on resting for ID or gold. Glasses of identification is great too, and there's 2 of them if I'm not mistaken.

I also think Paladins are a little too strong in this game for the most obvious reason, Holy Avenger. If they didn't get it, it wouldn't be as easy, I know my Cavalier wouldn't have beat up all of those Vampires, Liches, and Dragons easily without it. (I mean come on, the big Red was probabily one of the nastiest fights, the other dragons were pretty much cake if you watch yourself.)

I agree that Jaheira shouldn't have ever multi-ed a fighter because she isn't a good one. I think Bioware was trying to give variety, reason why they dualed and multied almost all of the npcs.

[serjeLeBlade]

Originally posted by Delita
Also, I don't think lore really helps at all. It just makes you waste time on resting for ID or gold.

...I assume you intended "It just makes you save time and gold when identifying items"? (Otherwise, I'm puzzled)

[gnomethingy]

Originally posted by MasterDarkNinja

Keldorn- I say that the inquisitor is the worst paladin class and that the undead hunter is the best
Haer Dalis'- the weakest bard class, song doesn't improve with levels and lower lore (I admit that I never used bards though)
Jaheira- multiclassed and I found her to be quite weak at fighting

also I got rid of TOB's NPC name.

MasterDarkNinja...

The thing you have to realise with inquisitors is while they are say, a little worse than a ranger for day to day battles, they are the only kit that can really do what there kit entails
So much so that its ridiculous, a lvl 10 inquisitor can kill almost any mage in the game, without breaking a sweat... That sort of case specific power has to come at a price

Im not trying to flame you, in just trying to give advice that might help you milk some more effectivness out of those npc's you deem weak,

In early soa, with attack + items like Belm and Kudane, Hear'dalis is basicly a type of fighter mage, by late soa / tob he gets improved bard song so then he can be the bard you want him to be

Jaheria is a force in soa, with the right items, for many reasons.. Stoneskins ensures she doesnt take much dmg, items like Impaler ensure she can always dish it out, by tob it all goes to hell.. She doesnt even need items.. As few things in the game can mess with greater earth elementals using greater whirlwind attacks
Infact, for me she spends so much time as an earth elemental in tob, that I give there the staff or aurendel for extra spells, as she nearly never fights in her natural form
Just be sure to give her a strength belt and memorise lots of stoneskins, insect plagues and fire elemental summons

And well, as for Yoshi.. Try dueling him to a fighter, if you want to waste the time and effort

Cernd, just treat him like a vanilla druid.. OK spells, but you need to wait for tob to get the really good stuff, shapechange can save your life though, when you absolutly must have another tank
Try using improved haste on his greater wearwolf form, he gets 6 attacks then.. and doesnt do too badly in combat, as long as he has iron skins up to protect himself

And on a sidenote, Jaheria and Hear'dalis aside from Anomen who can fight in mellee and use the amuet of power.. which makes them very usefull for vampire killing

Theres some stuff to go over.. But trust me, using the right equipment and with the right spells, any npc is a force, its just the way the game is..

[VonDondu]

Originally posted by gnomethingy
trust me, using the right equipment and with the right spells, any npc is a force, its just the way the game is...

I agree. The game gives you so many incredible resources, any character can become a demi-god if played well. I chuckle when people say that Inquisitors, Blades, and multi-classed Fighter/Druids, Mage/Clerics, etc. are "pathetic".

On the other hand, if all you want to do is walk up to monsters and try to hit them with melee weapons, some classes (and characters) are certainly a lot better than others. Some classes just don't stand a chance if you want to play them that way.

[Aqua-chan]

Oi, MDN... I think you're missing the point of design for the NPCs. They were not MEANT to be the best of thier classes, ya know? If they were, then what would be the point of the roleplaying concept? The battles would be too easy, and where's the fun in that?

Not flaming, I swear.

[Bruide]

I dont think I have anything new to add to the above. But - you can tell I'm gonna add me 2 cents cant ya

Sure. Some of the people could have better stats for their class - I think you were questioning the stats for their class thing not the fact that they have apparantly have *low* stats? Yeah? But, sure, why not? Why not have a character in the game that has a better DEX than a npc that has chosen to be a thief.

It helps 'round out' the nps's - give them character, if you will. 's good I think. Nice even. Makes em more real.

[Impaler987]

Originally posted by MasterDarkNinja
Imoen- duel classed, would have been better as a pure thief (or pure mage

I don't see how a dual-class thief/mage is any worse than a single-class mage. I do, however, agree that she should've been left a single-class thief and have the player given the option to dual her to a mage whenever he feels like it. And let's face it, around level 11 or 12, it's inevitable. But I really can't complain too much since even at level 7 her skills are usually adequate, especially when enhanced with items.

Aerie- a multiclassed cleric/mage that is weak, it would of been better to be just one of the 2

With access to every cleric spell and all but the 9th level in mage spells, Aerie is a more-than-capable spellcaster. Shouldn't necessarily be the main caster (leave that to Imoen in a good party), but overall Aerie is very valuable.

Anomen- has a good class from his fighting skills but has low wisdom

Without spoiling it too much, if you finish a certain quest he becomes one hell of a cleric.

Korgan- nothing wrong with him really he's a Berserker, the only disadvanage really is not being able to use arch weapons

As the dwarves would say, "Leave the bows to the bloody prancing elves." You want missile weapons, be an archer. And berserkers can still use missle weapons anyway; they can take 1 point in them, but they can't specialize. Big whoop. Overall, better in every way than a plain fighter.

Disclaimer: I actually like elves more than dwarves, but I had to quote that common dwarven saying to stress my point.

Valygar- not maxed on in constitustion, he would of been better as an archer.

I think a 16 is more than decent; apparently you're very hard to please. The only reason I don't keep him all the time is because I'm often a stalker myself. Stalkers are an awesome class, with a backstab that is actually one multiplier level higher than what is stated in the description. They're a lot of fun to play.

Keldorn- is an inquisitor which I think is the weakest paladin class. he should of been an undead hunter.

Undead hunters are almost useless at the higher levels of SoA's limit on up into ToB because 1) Turn Undead, be it from a vanilla paladin, cavalier, or cleric, will destroy all undead except for liches at this point, 2) there are so many negative plane protection items later in the saga, and 3) inquisitors are better against liches anyway because they are classified more as mages than undead.

If you were to change his kit, I'd definitely have to say cavalier, but I wouldn't. I'd rather take the cavalier for myself and let Keldorn do all the anti-mage stuff.

Haer Dalis'- is the worst type of bard with the most penaties, a Jester or Skald would of been better

Blades are the best bard kit by far, but Haer'Dalis does suck because of his terrible stats. He's stupid for a bard, so his spell level is low, and his constitution of 9 means that he takes hits like a weak kitten.

Yoshimo- not a good NPC at all replace him as soon as possible

Yoshimo is the best thief in the game, just don't plan on having him forever.

[Obike Fixx]

Keldorn Undead hunter?

Keldorn should be a Cavaleir, Not an Undead Hunter.

[MasterDarkNinja]

I know why to not use Yoshimo for spoiler reasons, I think that it's best to get your party of people made as quick as possible to not lose too much XP.
also I said I quote

I had a hard time for thinking of bad parts for some people

I Never had a problem with Korgan not being able to use arch weapons (except for when my undead hunter went alone in rooms filled with level draining undead early in the game.
as for Imoen and Nalia my point to them is that I'd much rather have another pure thief since there's a problem with them in BG2 since it is wise to not use Yoshimo at all for spoiler reasons (boy was I furious when it happened the first time I played it, of course I was cheating that time, but still I was mad that he had done it since I didn't get the ctrl R and ctrl Y cheats to work yet).
(and no I don't use those cheats anymore, except to kill the gas figures that vampires become since I hate vampires so much).

Anomen- I know that he gets 16 wisdom later he was someone with less bad points then others, I used to use him.
Valygar- I only used him once when I wasn't very good at BG2 but it's looking at his stats in guild books and looking up his class information that makes me not use him

Undead hunters are almost useless at the higher levels of SoA's limit on up into ToB because 1) Turn Undead, be it from a vanilla paladin, cavalier, or cleric, will destroy all undead except for liches at this point, 2) there are so many negative plane protection items later in the saga, and 3) inquisitors are better against liches anyway because they are classified more as mages than undead.

If you were to change his kit, I'd definitely have to say cavalier, but I wouldn't. I'd rather take the cavalier for myself and let Keldorn do all the anti-mage stuff.

I never used Keldorn but I use undead hunters, trust me they have more then that ability to be immune to level drain. they do more damage against all undead and are very powerful against Kangaxx the demilich (that has no protections to dispell you need weapons of +4 and up to touch him).
I don't like Inquisitors since they have too many penalites and I never really have trouble with mage's defensive spells, it's their offensive spells that make you lose control of your people that I have trouble with once in a while. but still wizards are easy for my undead hunter group.
I don't understand why so many people like Cavaliers. It is true that there's more dragons and demons in BG2 TOB but I never have much trouble against them with my undead hunter and his group anyway. I don't think that I ever needed to reload when fighting them. the cavalier has immunity to fear. there's not a lot of times that you have to face your fear in BG2. and as for remove fear that he has same reason listed above.
immune to poison. I never have much trouble with poison anyway unless it's on someone with a low max hp
20% resistance to fire and acid. that can be handy for dragons and a few other stuff but isn't that good.
disadvanages can't use missle weapons, I admit that for a fighter class that's no loss really unless you have to send someone else in a room alone to face undead. I don't consider lay on hands a loss for the undead hunter either.
Haer dalis'- I never used bards really except for one game that lasted for like 5 minutes with a Skald but I still don't think that bards are that good because they have wizard spells up to level 6 and that's nothing really. Bard songs I have no idea how they're like, maybe some time later I'll try a bard for one of my harder Soloing games (I'm soloing with a Swashbuckler right now).
once again I repeat that I listed every NPC but I don't think that all of them are bad. some of them that I don't use I didn't use because there were better people or I needed a person of some different class.
here are NPC's that I think are really good and worth using
Minsc, Korgan, Anomen, Viconia, Edwin, TOB NPC
people that I think are good NPC's are
Jan, Keldorn,
in the middle NPC's
Imoen, Nalia, Aerie, Valygar, Mazzy
Bad Npc's
Cernd, Haer Dalis', Jaheria, Yoshimo

now someone's going to disagree with Jaheria's place I bet.

Edit: opps forgot to say in my long message that this Keldorn/Paladin talk is getting into what should be in the paladin poll thread.

[Sojourner]

Originally posted by MasterDarkNinja
has anyone else noticed how that everyone in your group (mainly the good and neutral characters) are usually the worst class of their class group that there is in the game? since take a look at everyone
Imoen- duel classed, would have been better as a pure thief (or pure mage
Minsc- is just like a fighter so shouldn't he be that instead based on how that he acts? (or an archer but that won't be that good based on how he acts and talks about his sword)
Jaheria- a multiclassed fighter and druid with a low score for both of her main stats
Aerie- a multiclassed cleric/mage that is weak, it would of been better to be just one of the 2
Nalia- became a thief too early, she would of been better as a pure thief (or pure mage)
Anomen- has a good class from his fighting skills but has low wisdom
Korgan- nothing wrong with him really he's a Berserker, the only disadvanage really is not being able to use arch weapons
Viconia- a great cleric but is weak based on armor that can be worn, she needs a belt to incrase her strength to be good, she could also be a good thief with her stats but is still a good cleric
Jan- he is physically weak but the best thief in BG2
Valygar- not maxed on in constitustion, he would of been better as an archer.
Keldorn- is an inquisitor which I think is the weakest paladin class. he should of been an undead hunter.
Haer Dalis'- is the worst type of bard with the most penaties, a Jester or Skald would of been better
Edwin- the best wizard in the game with his hacked necklace (and he's evil and evil NPC's are built much better then good and neutral NPC's)
Cernd- a shapshifter who can't wear ANY armor, he should of been an avenger I think.
Mazzy- doesn't have enough strength for a fighter, she should of been a thief based on her stats.
Yoshimo- not a good NPC at all replace him as soon as possible

so does everyone else think about this? I've noticed this when trying to assmble the best BG2 party based on classes that my guy is. I use the evil 3 in my party (and the evil NPC in TOB to who has ctrl shift 8 stats with 13 points taken away from it)

I disagree with your assessment of the clerics - I think their stats are just fine - Viconia's and Aerie's stats are in line with what I think is adequate for their classes, and a cleric isn't expected to have high strength, anyway, not to mention they have a range of spells to compensate. True, Anomen isn't a dual-class you could make without the use of Shadowkeeper, but it's been pointed out that high WIS only nets you more low-level cleric spells.

Jaheira is fine as a fighter-druid, however, I wish Cernd had been a totemic druid or even an avenger. The shapeshifter kit is rather weak, IMO. Add to that the problem of Cernd's low DEX. I would have sacrificed both INT & WIS to boost his DEX.

I think the rangers' stats are just fine, as well as Mazzy's. IMO, Keldorn actually has the most powerful paladin kit - he's the reason I rarely play inquisitor, myself. With the number of good throwing weapons in this game, I don't consider Korgan's inability to use bows/crossbows/slings a disadvantage at all.

Haer'Dalis has quite good stats, IMO, and I consider his kit to be quite strong, esp. with ToB.

I would have given Nalia a few more thief levels, to improve her lock-picking ability, but otherwise I consider her a strong character (except for the whining )

[Aramant]

I think it's rather odd that you criticize NPC's based on their stats, but include Yoshimo's plot complications in your list of complaints.

Also, this is a game based on Dungeons and Dragons, with an emphasis on role-playing. If you want to play a game where the only important thing is the power of your character, play Diablo or something.

I honestly fail to see a problem with any of the characters, insofar as game mechanics go. Yoshimo is a great thief in terms of game mechanics, with his high dexterity and the ablility to kill dragons without even getting hit (hello, snares). Jahiera isn't the best fighter in the game, true, but that's because she's a fighter DRUID. DRU-ID. Let her summon a fire elemental or three and you have your own little army. And I've seen nothing wrong with Cernd in terms of mechanics. I don't like him because of his strange looking colour scheme and his annoying hippy ramblings, not because he's "weak" or "useless".

That's another thing... I highly doubt that the people from Bioware sat around and thought up ways to make NPC's useless. "You know Jim, that's a good idea! Let's throw in a fighter with 9 strength and call him Mr. Pootywinkle!"

In closing, I'd like to say that though this game does involve lots of combat, it's also based largely upon the STORY and ROLE-PLAYING. If you want to play a hack and slash game, go BUY a hack and slash game.

[gnomethingy]

Originally posted by Aramant
annoying hippy ramblings.

Props... vast props