good vs evil npc's

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 9:41 am

Originally posted by Astafas:
I agree with Johnny here. OK, as a cleric Viconia gets a few bonusspells that Anomen won't get. And her MR is very nice, too. But over all Anomen is a powerhouse...

@Astafas, if you'll refer back to Johnny's original comment and my response, what he wrote was:

Power-wise Anomen is the best cleric.

Not the best combination, not the best fighter, not the best tank, but the best cleric. It's that I disagree with. It can be reasonably argued that Anomen makes a fine multipurpose character and a very good tank, but if you want a powerhouse cleric, Viconia's the best in the game. As I wrote above, she gets more spells, and when you're up against the Undead, those extra high level spells are very important. I tend to use my clerics in CRPGs as spellcasters and missile slingers only, so we're really talking about two different approaches to gameplay. For me, Viconia is simply the best cleric as such in the game. She's saved my party's rear credentials on many an occasion.

I understand where you're coming from on your wholehearted support of Anomen, however. He's been unfairly disparaged in the past because of his "personality," but he's damn useful as a multithread team player. Of course, in fairness to Vi, once you give her some good armor, a belt that strengthens and a nice weapon, she can wreck merry hell as she wades into enemies. But yes, Anomen still surpasses her easily as a melee machine.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm a huge fan of Vic. However, when it comes to usefulness, I hold Sir Anomen second only to Jan.

Don't forget Jaheira! She can become a reasonably decent tank, resurrects, casts that wonderful Insect Plague spell, and often acts in my party as an Elemental Generator, using those staves that various people were kind enough to leave lying around everywhere.

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

TheDude · Post by **TheDude** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 9:59 am

Originally posted by Scorpius:

Char_Aznable: No, being conjurer only gives 1 bonus spell for each level, and Edwin has MUCH more than that. With rings, he can have 11(!) level 2 spells.

the fact that Edwin can cast this many spells lies in his amulet.
it doesn't say that in the story but it is treu.

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 11:34 am

thanks.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 2:22 pm

Originally posted by Scorpius:
clear logic, how would i know he is very annoying without having him had in my party????

In order to try him out properly you'd need to have him in your party til he reaches the higher levels. If you don't like his personality, you'd probably find him annoying and kick him out long before that. Logical, too? However, I do of course respect your opinions. And Vic sure is hotter.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 2:30 pm

@fable

Well, as I tried to explain in my post, a cleric is much more to me than the number of spells he/she has. I've always pictured the cleric as a front line character. But that's just my personal opinion, of course.

I agree on Jaheira. She'd probably come in third on my list of most useful NPCs. Aerie ain't bad either if you know how to make use of her spells but I've never really liked her personality (Sorry User!).

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 2:35 pm

Originally posted by Vivien:
Ah, someone remembers us

How could I forget? All the women of this board gathered in one place - has to be our most read thread ever.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 3:03 pm

@Scorpius: I think Imoen is so annoying, just like Nalia. Viccy is the best female charcter available.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 3:58 pm

Originally posted by Morlock:
@Scorpius: I think Imoen is so annoying, just like Nalia. Viccy is the best female charcter available.

Imoen has one of the most obnoxiously chirpy manners of any CRPG character I've encountered. But then, she's your character's sister. That kind of thing sorta comes with the relationship all too often.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:02 pm

Originally posted by Astafas:
@fable

Well, as I tried to explain in my post, a cleric is much more to me than the number of spells he/she has. I've always pictured the cleric as a front line character. But that's just my personal opinion, of course.

Oh, but you did explain it well--I was agreeing with you, that it was only my tendency to use clerics in supporting positions which makes Viconia the best cleric around. In my latest game, though, I've been using Anomen, and I really do enjoy his ability to take the melee lead when necessary. In fact, during the first Irenicus battle, one of the Spellhold mages actually cast Deathcloud (the idiot!), and most of my team, and all the Spellhold mages, died. It was Anomen who held off the throng of assassins, while my sorc, almost out of spells, remained safe in the background. I also had Cernd around, but even in his advanced wolf form he was still getting hit a lot more often than Anomen. The latter saved the day.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:33 pm

A bit of consolidation and commentary.

Edwin can cast so many spells because he is a specialist AND has a special Thavian amulet (which seems to give him an additional spell per level - like he was a double specialist).

The evil NPC's are deliberately better than the good ones. The game writers have used this to present conflicts to the players. I personally like the way that many of the new elements in BG2 lead to ethical and interpersonal conflict, it makes the game 'breath' much more than any other. - Curdis

samcu · Post by **samcu** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 12:20 am

I thought it was like Star Wars, the dark way is always more tempting

Anyway, you have to realize that in order to find the best, you will have to consider the armour and weapons that you party can use collectively.

I think it is always cool to walk the wide side every now and then...

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 11:06 am

I hope not to bothering you, but I add my point.
I think that much of the personalities is given by the voices.
Unfortunately I can't confront with you guys, 'cause I have
the italian (dubbed) version.
So I speak for me.
Three of the chars mentioned here happen to have the best voice
sets IMO, in the italian version: Keldorn, Anomen, and Imoen, so keeping them becomes
even more interesting.
(Though all of the voices in SoA are very good! Too bad they
changed all of them in ToB and choosed HORRIBLE actors to replace
them!!!! They ruined what they could of the game)

Keldorn is the most involving male char. His voice is maybe a little
young, but warm and guiding. He's a deep char, sad at times, really
I enjoyed him in my party. AND powerful. The Inquisitor is one of the
best kits. But he has a great problem: to keep him, you have to part him from his family! If you want a paladin, probably you're good, so you wouldn't do such a thing! Not for too long, at least.

Anomen is a very well designed char! He wants to become a knight more
for the status maybe (note that he's neutral, not good), nontheless
he's honest and incline to good actions. A bit arrogant 'cause he's
young: he claims to be autor of great deeds, and none of those
is true, yet he's capable of greater ones while travelling with you,
for he IS very powerful! He can handle most of the situations alone.
His only drawback is that if you take a female PC, he keeps bothering
you!!!! Unless you TOO are a female, maybe...

Imoen is too nice. I know the original voice set is somewhat childish
(one of her lines remained strangely undubbed!), but I say that the
italian voice for her is very sensual!
Being kidnapped and all, you actually feel the urge to protect her!
When I solo, I'm forced to take her along at least till out of the
underdark, I can't just leave her there.

They're great chars, I say, take one of them instead of their evil equivalents.
I mean, I know many like evil NPCs, but maybe they are not considering
this: if you play like me, you will try to role-palying as much as possible.
Well, the game is not truly designed to use evil NPCs.
Only is handled the "stay with party or leave" aspect.
Good people can cooperate, help each other. An evil member should
stay with you for a while, then decide, if you get killed, that for
him is easier to take your loot and leave, than resurrecting you.
And in many situations he should NOT really help you.
Yes, you can give bad responses to people, but actually, just by
controlling him and choosing the spell that you need you're not
truly playing an evil char.
Evil people are selfish (I tend not to consider the first part of
alignment, as it concerns more the education and habits than the
real feeling of the char), and I think in a perfect game they
should have been more out of control.
The way they are, I don't like keeping them.
I'll try Viconia, 'cause I know you can lead her away from the dark path, and, if you romance her, keeping her can make sense after all.
For the rest, good rules!!!!
These are my opinions, at least.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 11:28 am

Imoen is too nice. I know the original voice set is somewhat childish
(one of her lines remained strangely undubbed!), but I say that the
italian voice for her is very sensual!

Sensual? In English (which you write very well, by the way), Imoen's accent and delivery always reminds me of that obnoxious tomboyish girl who followed Tom Sawyer around--can't remember her name, not that I truly care to.

The idea of a Gina Lolabrigida playing the role brings its own share of problems, especially if you're her brother.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 11:43 am

Originally posted by Littiz:
I hope not to bothering you, but I add my point.

On this board there is no need to excuse yourself for expressing opinions concerning BG2. And especially not when writing interesting posts. Keep it up, friend!

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 2:57 pm

I have rearely felt the need beyond having one if that cleric in the party....

jaheira and aerie are both half clerics, aerie cause most of her cleric spells are offensive and jahiera is a druid, so I usually runa low cleric party. why? What good are clerics for anyway? look at jaheria. you gota fighteeer, and druid, and you have her mem chaotic commands, free action and mass ressurection, your best "oh crap, everyone is dying!" spell, and she can be cleric for a typical party. you can run without cleric, as long as you have a good druid. ....cernd is such a loser!....

as for turn undead, have keldy or minsc run with mace of disruption or in a kevin patch game azuredge becomes an unstoppable undead killer! better than turn undead, I've used azuredge on full whirlwind to kill liches!

Aerie is not really a cleric, too low wisdom, I use her to cast monster type specific spells fast, and so i run, happily wihtout full cleric support. The only diff between a cleric and druid is

turn, not all that great if you have mace of disruption, azuredge, or summon planetar

greater restoer, yeah, great spell but mass raise undead, specific to both druids and clerics will be just as good for a mass heal effect.

buffs like chaotic commands and free action. both can be more better with items later on, and jahiera can cast too. who needs a cleric? I dont, and I personally find both viccy and anoweenie very annoying.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 4:33 pm

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly:
....cernd is such a loser!....

find both viccy and anoweenie very annoying.

Oh man, it's like an ocean between us.

Aerieweenie!

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Astafas ]

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 9:35 pm

a pithy one liner for your consideration regarding
Anomen = Anoweenie
Aerie = Circus freak
I do not countenance the use of either, or encourage any members of the forum to do so.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 11:16 pm

yeah, but aerie when I pull up her info sheet has "highest level enemy killed....firkraag!!!"

my main sorc spell triggered 3 lower resists, she spell triggered doom, malison and khelbens warding whip, and my main sorc had in chain blindness and some more lower rresist. aerie had triple implosion in chian. cast greater acuity for fast reaction time, and had aerie and sorc dump triggers on firkraag and aerie wiped him out when the screen cleared.

unless you go mage cleric, your ultimate spell slinger, not caster is her.

anoweenie has too low wisdom, and its the same as aerie, but her mage spells make up for it.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sat Jan 12, 2002 8:35 am

Thanx guys, actually I'm learning much of this language in this forum!!!
Still I have something to understand though!
ASAP is "as soon as possible", right?
But LOL?!!!
And IIRC?

By the way, what Fable said I think confirmed my thoughts. Voices catch our
feelings for the characters, after all,
voices are REAL, not simulated like the
rest of the imaginary world.

Maybe I was willing to start a crusade against evil NPCs, but I realized I'll never convert those avid evil players!!!

JosephCSu · Post by **JosephCSu** » Sat Jan 12, 2002 9:09 am

Evil NPC is more powerful in SOA but good NPC is more powerful in TOB simply because they are multiclass.

When you get to extremely high level multiclass become more powerful than single class. That is because your class progression will decelerate and flatten out around level 20.