Sept 11th

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 11:53 am

Charity would be a good thing, but it's pointless.
First, 99% of a donation goes always in the purse of the
organizations of charity. They exist for profit.
Second, the help is useless, anyway. It doesn't change nothing.
"Don't give 'em a fish, teach them how to catch one!"

Anyway.
@Fable, I understand you're in a difficult position as a moderator.
We'll try to keep quiet, but please, don't close the thread.
A little conflict is bearable, with such topics.
And, from discussion comes learning....
Better a verbal conflict than a physical one!
I would have loved some replies from CM.
Mind you, I follow no religion, and no politicians.
So, while surely I'm influenced by the culture I live in, at least
I share no dogmatic convinctions or political "faith" with it.
I can at least *TRY* to speak unbiased.

I beg you all, find the time to read <edited out by request, if you want the article for any reason, either conact Littiz or Mr Sleep>
It's long (9 pages). It's the translation of Oriana Fallaci's article.
You'll find it strongly "against" Moslims, but, maybe surprisingly
for you, it's just as well "against" Italy, despite her love
(And I assure you she speaks the truth about us, and her words about the
flag are simply illuminating.. I myself know well that mistake)
But it is also, a monument to the people that helped that day,
and to all Americans.
Let me add that, being Florentine as her, I do remember the facts of page 8!
What a woman...
Yes, whatever you may think about her, she's an EXCEPTIONAL woman,
maybe the most exceptional I know of.
A really free soul, never afraid to speak her truth, all the less now
that she's sick.
And understand that this article comes shortly after the event,
so it's passionate and DOES go "out of the lines", sometimes.
But if memory doesn't fail me, I felt exactly like her, a year ago.

Now I'm more rational, but the contrast exists, and if we negate it,
we won't solve it

smass · Post by **smass** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:18 pm

Thanks littiz - I needed that

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:07 pm

@Randomthug,

Thankyou Sir. I hope Aegis and mine remarks in that *other* thread haven't changed your opinion of me.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 2:32 pm

@Grunt

Nah no offense really on that thread. I thought at first (and why I posted in retaliation) that it was a pro Canadian anti American little splurge. I didnt consider it at all a joke, my bad. I have no hard feelings and really this forum is fun as can be. Im now just spamming and wasting time so Im gonna go back to work.

thug

Bruide · Post by **Bruide** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:06 pm

Taking the original post.

Sure. Why not mark it and remember it. It was a big thing. You mention numbers and say there are more killed by ... [insert cause here] - Sure there are. *shrug* I think the impact, on what I see, is bigger than numbers. I say if the US wants to honour and remember those dead? Then good.

We honour and mark many strange events. This will be one of the less odd ones to honour. I am for remembering and honouring.

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:58 pm

I have been following this thread since its beginning. I want to express my thanks and humble gratitude to the SYM'rs who have extended their condolences to the people of the U.S. Many of us are still hurting, and It has touched me deeply to know there is the level of empathy out there you have expressed. I have also read the other posts and recognize each persons right to their opinions, good, bad or indifferent. I shall not debate the issues as it is not my intention or manner. Thank you for your love, support, & compassion. As always, we take comfort in the arms of friends.

edit:
Comment on Fallaci moved to indicated thread.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 3:40 am

@Littiz

Good article. I like her writing. I get the feeling that it's a bit more poetic in her native Italian.

der Moench · Post by **der Moench** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:05 am

Just the right thing to say

Originally posted by Scayde
I have been following this thread since its beginning. I want to express my thanks and humble gratitude to the SYM'rs who have extended their condolences to the people of the U.S. Many of us are still hurting, and It has touched me deeply to know there is the level of empathy out there you have expressed. I have also read the other posts and recognize each persons right to their opinions, good, bad or indifferent. I shall not debate the issues as it is not my intention or manner. Thank you for your love, support, & compassion. As always, we take comfort in the arms of friends.

Well said, Scayde.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:45 am

@Scayde: I think, in ten days, we'll witness to many nice manifestations, from many, many people.

@Sojo: she is, though this was written almost in hurry,
not conceived as a literary work. There's a book with the uncutted version
in which (despite her returning "worse for them, worse for them!")
she shows an endless pity towards the women she saw executed,
for crimes like unadequate dressing...

The reason I pointed to it, maybe I left unclear.
Well, the point is, I never felt such an affinity with
anyone else, before.
She's like me. She gets angry, she screams, she spits all the
venom she has, she gets insulted for this.
She throws everything in the cauldron, strong, or weak arguments...
In truth, she wouldn't ever do harm to any of the people she speaks
so badly about.
She'd want love, but she feel "forced" to hate: yet she's so far from
violence, that she doesn't know how to react, and so she acts like a child.
Her words seems to raise from hate, while they simply rise from sorrow and fear.
A fear that goes beyond her lifespan:
She cares for her own dreams, her country, her memories,
she fears the unknown like everybody.
I understand the final, supreme declaration of love/hate for Italy
(though I mostly fit into her worst descriptions)
She fled from here, only to amplify both of them....

So, the possible "invasion" is portrayed as something which could
erase the places and thoughts that she loves.
When I walk in my city, I feel the same.
The sense of losing our identity is strong.
I imagine many fervent Moslims feel the same, they just have to connect
to the web to feel overwhelmed by such different cultures...
How do they react to pornography, for instance?

CM · Post by CM » Sun Sep 01, 2002 1:19 pm

I am back. Moved and all. I didnt expect this to go on for such a long time.

Before i start responding to the posts here i want to say something. I apologise for the manner in which i posted this post, i could have been more tactiful. However I stand by my original statement. This forum is based in the US with a great many US posters the rest consisting of Europeans or Aussies. There are very few representations of other countries. To my knowledge there are only 3 muslims, of which i post more frequently on political issues than the other two, who are MIA at the moment. At the same time i am one of 2 to my knowledge that represents the Asian community (born and breed so to speak in the third world). Now my views in many cases are contrary to what is up held in "Western" Society. However i honestly believe i hold a moderate view and in the minority. People tend to hold far more hardline views which are represented as views of the fundementalists. It is said that Palestinains were dancing in the street when the WTC attack occured. That was the same in China, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Malaysia. You name it the country felt a bit of regret at the human lose, but they also felt that the US in one way or the other deserved it.

A bit of Personal background a la smass to show why i can make a wide generalization. I live in Geneva Switzerland where the nations represented are over 200. People from all walks of life are living here and in a small city like geneva you quickly get to meet all the foriegners even if they are alot. I studied at a college with over 100 nationalities. The consensus on campus was that it was a lost, but to quote an Ethopian friend of mine, maybe now they will do something for the Ethopian people who died in the embassy attacks. The ones who support the US and feel the loss, are the very ones who are afraid of being targets as well. That is western Europe. Not the whole of Europe, as Poland has nothing to fear neither does Romania. They give their verbal support but it has not materialised into anything and most likely never will. Angola doesnt care what happened in the US as they are too busy with their own things. They honestly dont give a damn. That i can safely say is the view held around the third world.

Weasel to quote mental nomad (an american) "On the other hand....I am sure America will be watching to see who it's freinds are." That is exactly my point. People expect everybody to feel the lose, even if there isnt such a feeling. It is the same as the ****ed up notion, you are with us or against us. What happened to good old neutraility. I can bet you right now, that Europe would hold a 3 or 5 min thing while the rest of the world ie third world will try something but nobody will really care. It will be hypocritical for thrid world countries to do so, when they dont do it for their own people. I dont see Israel holding a signal day or a couple of minutes for the people who died in the intifada.

Scayde, i agree it was an psychological shock that fortress USA can witness brutality most countries have been dealing with for years. With that i dont mean planes flying into buildings, i mean brutal agonizing death, where people see their father or child literally die due to the lack of water or food. This isnt over like the 10 to 15 it took the plane to crash. It takes hours, where the mother has to see that she cant save her child because it isnt in her means to do so and watch helplessly as her child dies in pain. The sad thing is that above example aint good tv so it aint shown.

Littz honestly i am was going to flame you with a comment about Italy its racist and facist past with Mussolini. But that wouldnt be fair now would it? Also is this the same italian woman who advocates destoring Mecca, converting Muslims and mass slaughtering them? If it is, then it is great to see an open minded Italian such as yourself.

Now to go back to your post. Lets reverse your first para:

Aren't you aware that those 1 MILLION people were intentionally
KILLED, they were intentionally CHOSEN, they were considered
PATHETIC AND NOT FIT FOR LIFE BECAUSE they were HUTUS (ALSO INNOCENT CIVILAINS)????

Para 2:
They were used as a living bomb. Fair enough they were. They must have suffered a good 10 - 20 min at max being worried and suffering. That is a lose, but my point is simple, what makes that 10 to 20 suffering worth a day of remembrance and not the ones in rwanda and/or other places.

Para 3:
Yeah isnt that like the IRA, ETA, the rebels in Colombia, very much like the Red brigade in Italy back in the 70s and 80s. They are trained yes, it is wrong. I will condemn it as something wrong to attack civilians no matter what nationality.

Smass...i did not mean to cause offense or to hurt. People did lose lives, families were literally destoryed. I agree it should be mourned in the US, but not as a world wide thing. It takes away from the people who died in Africa, Asia, Latin American and other regions, if they are not remembered.

Gruntboy: Callous, maybe, for certain this post could have been handled in a better way. Mis-information. Hardly, well actually never. If you want to show a place where i have stated something as a fact that was not true please show me.

I just to step out and point out something to i have repeated endlessly that i said that the 3000 number is nothing COMPARED to what the rest of the world has seen. It is a loss, agreed. But the point you all get hung up on are AID victims. Lets deal with real misery, the massacre in Rwanda. The civil war of Angola. The suffering in South Africa and Somalia. The tyranny in Liberia. 3000 in one hour....after reading what happens on the African Continent on a daily basis, i dont see how 3000 deaths in 1 or 2 hours could compare to the suffering in Africa. To take your point. There is no trade off. The african continent has seen far more suffering and pain than those 2 hours at the WTC. If the world mourns those who die in the third world in millions i will officially mourn those who died in Sept 11th. There is no trade off. The rest of the world has suffered in far greater terms.

That is all for now. I have to get back to work. I will reply later on today. If people want this thread just stopped say so and i wont reply further.

Ambiorix · Post by **Ambiorix** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 2:00 pm

Originally posted by CM
Aren't you aware that those 1 MILLION people were intentionally
KILLED, they were intentionally CHOSEN, they were considered
PATHETIC AND NOT FIT FOR LIFE BECAUSE they were HUTUS (ALSO INNOCENT CIVILAINS)????

It was actually the other way round. Tutsi's were killed by the Hutu's because they were Tutsi's.

Sorry for being pedantic.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Sep 01, 2002 3:12 pm

My bad...either way it was gruesome. Though it is astonishing that they could tell the different between the two tribes just based on physical appearance.

Edit: I mixed up some grammer and used words with the wrong meaning in mind.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 3:30 pm

@CM, nobody told you to remain silent.
I think you didn't catch my point, not that it was easy.
I'll try to explain.

First of all: you would do no offence to me saying that many
italians are fascists. I think that in a good measure it's true.
Oriana Fallaci herself says this.
She says that in Italy there are two types of fascists:
fascists, and antifascists. Unfortunately, true.
I've not quoted her to agree to her words, though.
SHE is definetely biased against Moslims (not against other people, notice)
Her life, her PERSONAL experiences with that culture brought her
to that point.
Surely some of her points are right. I hope you don't like easy
executions of your women. (I myself, don't like 'em. At all).
But if you think that she promoted a "mass-execution" of Moslims,
you have not read her.
Neither she promoted to erase their culture. She asks for DEFENSE.
(While I've seen talebans firing at the Buddhas. That was a terrible
day, if you ask me)

The reason to quote her: her passion. Her rage.
Her sorrow, extreme sorrow, for the dead.
Even her strong bias. I tried to imagine, if you read my posts, even
the reasons of the other side, that could lead to such fears,
and then, conflict. I try to *understand*.

See, I can understand sorrow. Or rage. Or fear. From both parts.
I can be angry, or peaceful. Forgiving or unforgiving.
These are human passions.
Total indifference, apathy... this I cannot understand.

You are promoting indifference to make no wrongs to other dead.
Well, first, I can't. I cannot *choose* to be indifferent.
Second, what makes you think that people here feel nothing for the
3rd World and other deaths???
Of course, we may be disinformed sometimes.
Yet, please don't speak about hunger. It's a tragedy, we know.
But nobody is willing those kids dead!!! Nobody!!!!!

I can't see death as a pleasant moment. It can't be.
Still, if one can die holding the hand of a loved one, he has
achieved something. But violent death... terror, screams... and
the inability to tell your last words to your loved.
No, violent death I cannot accept.
For the simple fact that, unlike hunger or AIDS, it could be
EASILY avoided.
Just *choose* not to kill.

As I said somewhere above, we use to mourn isolated events,
for their SYMBOLIC value, in addiction to their human value.
Something like the "unknown soldier".
It's a moment to remember what violence and hate can do.
If you choose NOT to mourn them, 'cause it's not right, your call.
I can't see how one, who has seen that thing, could, but...
Should you even think that they *deserved* it, then Oriana would be right.

Ambiorix · Post by **Ambiorix** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:03 pm

Originally posted by CM
My bad...either way it was gruesome. Though it is astonishing that they could tell the different between the two tribes just based on physical appearance.

They could. In general, that is. Even you and I could spot the difference. Tutsi's are Nile-people (long and slim). Hutu's are Bantu's.
All Rwandese were supposed to have a passport on which their ethnic origin should be indicated. But as there was a lively black market in false passports, the Hutu death squads resorted to killing purely based on appearance. They looked at the general physical appearance, especially at their fingers and toes. If they were long and thin, they were suspected to be Tutsi's and killed. Mistakes were made. At one of the road-blocks one of the daugthers of a prominent Hutu-militia-leader was executed because she had long fingers. Too gruesome to call it poetic justice.

Ambiorix · Post by **Ambiorix** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:13 pm

Originally posted by Littiz
[B Oriana Fallaci ... SHE is definetely biased against Moslims (not against other people, notice) [/b]

Yep. Fallaci raised quite a storm. Her books are even sold around these parts. She's no right-winger or bigotted type by any means. She's a left-wing feminist (correct me if I'm wrong, Littiz) or used to be that. More reason to take notice.

I agree with most things you've posted, Littiz.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:28 pm

Originally posted by CM

Weasel to quote mental nomad (an american) "On the other hand....I am sure America will be watching to see who it's freinds are." That is exactly my point. People expect everybody to feel the lose, even if there isnt such a feeling.

I try my best not to lump my opinions of certain groups on the actions of the few. I cannot speak for or will I speak for the people here who's opinion doesn't go along with mine.

Ask mental nomad to explain his post, not I.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 11:41 pm

Personally, I don't care if other countries mark this day or not. However, I know that there will be other countries doing something, because they lost citizens that day too, a fact the press seems to forget.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Sep 02, 2002 2:56 am

Shortest posts first:

@Soj, some 100 plus countries were represented at the WTC. Some of these nations were Third world ones, which have enough problems that they wont mark the day because they have many more pressing needs. The "West" will mark it. Pakistan which lost 200 people will not.

@Weasel my bad, i just stating that some people expect the world to mourn when some countries dont feel the need to. Next time i wont lump your opinion.

@Amb: Hutus being the shorter and more pudgier of the two right? You seem to know more about this than i do, so a 2 questions: Are there any good books you know of about the genocide second were the differences in phsyical appearance that large that you could tell the difference between the two tribes? Or was it a stereotype that had some fondation?

@Littz, i will read the link you have provided more throughly and then give my view about Ms. Fallaci, also i noticed some incorrect information in the link which i will explain and elaborate on further. I will hopefully have a post by today.

Ambiorix · Post by **Ambiorix** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 3:23 am

Originally posted by CM
@Amb: Hutus being the shorter and more pudgier of the two right? You seem to know more about this than i do, so a 2 questions: Are there any good books you know of about the genocide second were the differences in phsyical appearance that large that you could tell the difference between the two tribes? Or was it a stereotype that had some fondation?

Most books on the Rwandan genocide are in French (or Dutch) I'm afraid. There's one in Englsih I know of and which is supposed to be very good: "The Rwanda Crisis, history of a genocide", G.Prunier, Hurst and company, London, 1995. There must be others.

There was some fondation to the stereotype. Some marxist scholars have tried to deny the racial difference between Hutu and Tutsi and have - predictably - tried to reduce it to a social difference. But they are obviously wrong. It's hard not to spot the likeness between Tutsi's and e.g. Ethiopians. And when you look at general Kagame, there's no mistaking him for a Bantu.
But: Hutu's and Tutsi's have been living together for some centuries now and there have been a lot of mixed marriages. Also: it is accepted that sometimes a Hutu could get into the Tutsi upperclass by social means. The Belgian colonial authorities didn't invent the difference between the two groups but certainly reinforced it by relying on the Tutsi's for the executive jobs.
All in all a difficult and sensitive issue, but there was no doubt people were captured and killed also on the basis on how they looked.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:25 am

I am sorry I haven't read this earlier...

I just read the article Littiz linked to. Not only do I find the article sentimental, exaggregated and throwing accusation everywhere, it is also heavily cultural racist. For being a journalist who claims to have written about terrorism and war before, she also shows surprisingly little knowledge and understanding for why the WTC attack happened. I am disgusted, and it is truly depressing to hear there are people here who agree with this racist article.

The article starts off with an emotional description of the 9/11 events, and for some reason involves Yassir Arafat. By page 7, the article has turned into pure racism and after having described the superiority of Western, with focus on Italian culture, it critises how people from other cultures destroy Italian cities.

This is probably the most racist material I have seen here at SYM, and I ask the mods to remove it because it is against the forum rules. Some quotes from page 7 and 8:

Because do we want to have this discussion about what you call the Contrast-between-the-two-cultures? Well, if you really want to know, it bothers me to even talk about two cultures. To put them on the same level as if they were two parallel realities, of equal weight and measure. Because behind our civilization there is Homer, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Fidia, by god. There’s ancient Greece with her Parthenon and her discovery of Democracy. There’s ancient Rome with her greatness, her laws her concept of law. Her sculptures, her literature, architecture. Her buildings, amphitheaters, aqueducts, bridges, streets. There is a revolutionary, that Christ who died on the cross, that taught us (and patience if we haven’t learned) the concept of love and of justice. There's even is a Church which yes, gave me the Inquisition, I agree. That has tortured and burned a thousand times on the rack, agreed. That has oppressed me for centuries, and for centuries has forced me to sculpt and paint only Christs and Madonnas, that almost killed Galileo Galilei. Humiliated him, and shut him up. However, it also gave a great contribution to the History of Thought: you must agree! Furthermore, behind our civilization there is the Renaissance. There is Leonardo da Vinci, there is Michelangelo, Raffaello, the music of Bach and Mozart and Beethoven. Up and up until Rossini and Donizetti and Verdi and Company. That music without which we don’t know how to live and that in their culture or supposed culture is prohibited. Heaven help you if they whistle a little song or mimic the chorus of the Nabucco. Finally there’s science, by god. A science that has understood many illnesses and their cures. I am still alive, for now, thanks to our science: not the one of Mohamed. A science that has invented marvelous machines. The train, car, plane, spaceships with which we went to the moon and Mars and soon we will go who knows where. A science that has changed the face of this planet with electricity, radio, phone, television, and by the way: is it true that the ultra saints of the left don’t want to say what I have just said?!? God, what d!cks! They’ll never change.

And now here is the fatal question: What is there behind the other culture? No clue! Search as I might I can only find Mohamed with his Koran and Averroe with his merits as a scholar.

Sometimes I would see the image, for me symbolic (therefore infuriating), of the big tent with which one summer ago the Somali Muslims disfigured, smeared with **** and profaned for three months piazza Del Duomo in Florence. My city.

A tent raised to curse and condemn and insult the Italian government that was hosting them but would not give them the necessary documents to run around Europe and would not let them bring into Italy their hordes of their relatives. Mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, pregnant in-laws and even the relatives of their relatives. A tent raised next to the beautiful building of the Archbishop’s residence on whose sidewalk they kept their shoes and slippers which in their countries they line up outside of their Mosques. And with their shoes and slippers, the bottles of water with which they wash their feet before prayer. A tent raised in front of Brunelleschi’s cupola and next to the Baptistery with Ghiberti’s doors of paradise. A tent, furnished like a primitive apartment: chairs, tables, chaise-lounges, mattresses to sleep on and to copulate, ranges to cook the food and stench up the piazza with the smoke and smell. Thanks to the usual unconscionable Enel who cares about our works of art as much as it cares for our countryside, the tent was furnished with electricity. Thanks to a tape recorder, enriched by the coarse ugly voice of a muezzin who punctually exhorted the faithful, deafening the infidels, and suffocated the sound of the bells. To add to this, the yellow lines of urine that profaned the marble of the Baptistery. (By gosh! They have a long "spray" these sons of Allah! How did they manage to hit their objective, which is separated from the street by a protective fence, hence almost two meters distant from their urinary apparatus?) With the yellow lines of urine, and the stench of the excrements the huge door of San Salvatore was blocked and the Bishop unable to use it. The exquisite romanic styled church (built in the year one thousand) which is right behind Piazza del Duomo and that the sons of Allah had transformed into a ****-hole. You know it well.

The other arrogant guests of the city: the Albanians, Sudanese, Bengalis, Tunisians, Algerians, Pakistani, Nigerians who with much fervor contribute to the commerce of drugs and prostitution