Is it a bug or evidence of stupidity

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Tue Jan 15, 2002 6:29 pm

I have TOB and the latest patch installed on SOA. I have recently noticed that when I hit <TAB> I get the H.P. above characters (as expected) but every 'outlined' door, chest, hidden nook, is illuminated.

Has <TAB> always done this? If it has then gee did I waste a shirt load of time doing the mouse hover over the last 3 years.

If its a bug then it has helped me find a few things which I have never found before! - Curdis

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Jan 15, 2002 6:37 pm

That was a feature that ToB added. Personally, I think it's kinda neat.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Tue Jan 15, 2002 10:19 pm

It's neat, but makes it too easy - takes away part of the PnP DnD roleplaying out of it.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Jan 15, 2002 11:06 pm

You bring up an interesting area for discussion, @Morlock: how much "realism" is it before it becomes make-work and annoying, and how much "ease" can a developer point into a game before it loses its sense of being in real environment?

For example, Ultima VII forced you to feed your party every day, and individually: you couldn't just give one character food, or press a button to parcel it out. If you didn't do this, everybody would complain every minute. This was realistic--but I found it a nuisance.

On the other hand, when I worked as a gamesmaster for one of the online fantasy games, we deliberately used four different measures of currency to reflect the different coinage in widely flung areas of our product. Sure, it was a hassle having to go to a bank and change your coins to buy things, but I felt that added enormous flavor to the product. And whenever I roleplayed a merchant, I made sure he or she requested specific coinage, or items in exchange for his services.

How do others feel about the TAB outlining in BG2? And would BG2 be better with more realism, or more shortcuts?

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:26 am

Okay, TAB has been very helpful in my second time through the game. The first one, however, I hadn't had ToB installed, and I hadn't discovered all the items to be found within the game. But it's hard to tell whether I like it or not. It's easier with TAB --and made me a lot happier--, but then it was more interesting --and tiresome as well-- without it.

Mmm... I suspect you have a "blank vote" here, gentlemen.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Jan 16, 2002 5:41 am

It was actually something the originally added to IWD with it's expansion pack (called Heart of Winter), in IWD one would use the ALT key and it would do the same thing.

@Fable In IWD there are several very important switches and containers that are nearly impossible to see without analysing everything in large detail. These would be easily noticed if one was actually in the room, but due to the isometric viewpoint they are difficult to see.

The implementation of this process might be as much to allieviate poor level design as to aid the player.

Also the point about food is very interesting, i found it quite bizaare that as you run towards your God like powers you don't eat, we all need food and water yet in a game this natural and rather important process is overlooked. They could also make it so that how healthy and well fed your character is effects his strength in battle.

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Mr Sleep ]

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Wed Jan 16, 2002 11:03 am

I never understood the draw of IWD, I had it, but didn't like it. Not enough intelligence in the game- it's just fighting almost no intelligent convesation.

Silvanerian · Post by **Silvanerian** » Wed Jan 16, 2002 11:54 am

I agree with Sleep. The TAB-key highlights the doors and the containers.
And if you stand in a room - or if six people stand in a room - a chest wouldn't be too hard to spot, yet in the dim light of the Underdark or the first dungeon (or any dungoen, really) it's not too easy to spot everything for the player.
So I think it's realistic and doesn't take the roleplaying out of that part of the game.

I agree more on the part of food and drink.
Say you were to travel to Windspear Hills (and back). That's a 48 hour trip, with no inns or merchants to bye food from.
It would have been more realistic if you had to get rations with you.
It could just lie in the backpack and the characters could feed themselves to save the player some hassle, but it would be realistic.
Yet I don't feel that the game suffers much without this.
Also there're a lot of things to take into consideration if the food thing was implemented.
What about hunting? There're a lot of animals running around in Windspear - why couldn't the party not just hunt those for food?

So all in all I suppose the develpers desided not to implement the food issue, because it would be a lot of work and not really that important as we already have the "fatigued" concept.

-Sylvanerian

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Silvanerian ]

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:32 pm

I forsee lines being drawn similar to the arguments we had months back regarding the overuse of the quicksave option.

Personally, I don't use the <tab> features unless I've accidentally dropped items in a darkened area or if I looting a bunch of kills in a darkened area. Otherwise, if I miss something, I miss it. True, the isometric view of the game can skew some viewpoints, underdark, and irenicus prison being the most notable examples. However, I rely on my own ability to find doors and/or containers that may hold goodies.

As for the food issue, I think there is a happy medium to be found. Yes, you should have to buy it but no, you should not have to hand feed each character. For instance, a 48 hour journey, you're going to need to buy some chow. And the food should affect you encumbrance. Lugging a 10 sack of potatoes on your back for a couple of days will take it's toll.

Of course to add some overkill, someone like korgan shouldn't be required to carry all the food. Especially with alignment conflicts. Example:

Korgan: Imoen, perhaps ye should snuggle up to your bruddah if ye're looking for handouts. It's me that's been hauling this sack o'rations and it's me that's going to be eatin' it.

Of course then, Imoen casts a quick dire charm, commands Korgan to drop his draws, Viconia gets interested, and then...well, it gets pretty weird from there. Perhaps it is a good thing they left the prospect of feeding your characters out of it.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:50 pm

I think you have to consider whether or not you want to get bound up in minutia or not. Personally, I prefer to have a more "epic" feel to role-playing and never made my players worry about little things like food, lamp oil or sharpening weapons. In any RPG, there is a lot of down time, during which I assume that the PCs are doing all of the little things that people do in their daily lives.

Sure, everyone had to sleep, but I assumed that as the characters were sitting around the campfire for the obligitory 8 hours while the mage studied up on his/her spells, that everyone else was cooking dinner, polishing armour, fertilising trees, etc.

I just didn't want to deal with it because I believe that the larger point to role-playing is to kill the dragon, rescue the damsal in distress and save the kingdom. It's not about getting a quarter mile into the cavern then realising that Thumbledorf forgot to buy enough torches or that the cookies he picked up weren't the right kind for the diabetic cleric.

I liked that the Infinity Engine didn't dwell on the little things and just got on with the game.

magnetic · Post by **magnetic** » Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:55 pm

My party has bean living on a lean diet of dog stew and evermeed. I just whooped those umber hulks ^-^

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Wed Jan 16, 2002 6:29 pm

Thank's for clearing that up

.

Like any feature whether or not you chose to use (or not) is up to you. The functinality of H.P.'s above heads was something that I rarely used (which is why it took me so long to notice the new effect).

In PnP we used to just say - we search the room - That is I guess the equivalent of hitting <TAB>.

Personally, although I did waste a lot of time in SOA (and BG1) with the whole mouse hover thing it did make for a more interesting first run through. Now I have played the thing through so many times it is good to be able to go 'well who would have looked there!' to find 1 gp.

So my vote is a definite thumbs up.

Was this enhancement documented? - Curdis

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Wed Jan 16, 2002 8:14 pm

I know I'm late to this party, but the TAB key is a NO-BRAINER. If you want to get caught up in food, water, etc., then buy the Sims. Games today can be so complex it can be a real buzz kill to keep running your curser over every flippin wall and bush to see if you got everything. The game draws its appeal from the story, character development, and character interaction - not 'Where In the World is Carsomyr?'. This ranks right up there with the so-called save-game debate. Are you kiddin' me? It doesn't take long for a game, any game, to become tedious. Yeah, I want to keep going back and replaying the same scenario or level over and over. Lots of tension in that. Can you say Uninstall?

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Jan 17, 2002 4:39 am

Do we need an interface with buttons like...

"Eat" (or lose HPs)
"Wash" (or lose Charisma)
"Wipe ***" (or lose even more Charisma)
"Comb Hair" (or lose Charisma and THAC0 because of hair falling in your eyes)
"Drink" (or lose HPs)
"Scratch [insert favorite piece of anatomy here]" (or take a -1 Luck penalty due to distracting itches)
"Blink" (or lose THAC0 because your eyes dry out)
"Clear Throat" (or lose Charisma because you get too hoarse to make yourself understandable)

I vote... NO!

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Thu Jan 17, 2002 5:22 am

Xyx, you're great

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Thu Jan 17, 2002 5:53 am

Xyx

It was merely an idea

It would take too much time and effort but i found it interesting that such things are excluded, it would certainly make the games more realistic. I also do not think they should do it at the expense of plot and character generation.... i guess the voyuer in me wanted to see the BG2 ladies showering

Bobsy · Post by **Bobsy** » Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:55 am

Eye of the Beholder featured ration packs which you needed to keep a steady supply of. To be honest, it didn't add anything special to the game. It did however take up enormous amounts of space in the inventory.

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Fri Jan 18, 2002 10:27 am

@Bobsy: Or you used a cleric to supply foor with the ......"Create Food & Water" spell.

I think it added a sense of realism to the game in the sense that you experienced the need to advance (or suffer from lack of food). Again, this was easily bypassed with a simple 3rd level cleric spell.

TC, Geert

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Fri Jan 18, 2002 10:41 pm

Mega Toerist makes a very interesting point.

I am currently playing a party who thinks nothing of going to sleep just to change spell lists. The game really forces no timelimits onto general play. Nalia says you have to go straight away - yeah right. I went to the underdark (etc) and it was still only a day later when I got to the De'Arnise keep (acording to Nalia).

In Ultima Underworld my first character starved to death on level one until I wised up and did things differently, so food can be used to force the pace.

Anyhow.. was the <TAB> feature documented? - Curdis