My thoughts on NwN - Spoilers

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:17 am

Well it took a while but i finally got the game finished, if only so i could access all the areas in the Aurora Toolset. So here are my thoughts on the game, I realise some of this has been covered and if Xan want's to banish this from the face of the earth then feel free

The main campaign was a dissapointment to me, there wasn't a single inspired moment that just took me a by surprise, a great deal of the plot is very obvious and frankly i do expect better. On the other hand the story does make use of the new 3D engine which as much as many people didn't like it, i think it is a solid innovation and certainly worth the effort that Bioware put into it.

I know a great deal of people complain about the graphics but the 64MB texture pack does make the game look very good indeed and the sound effects are also very well implemented. Only a few of the VO's felt out of place, i did want to put Aribeth over my knee and give her a spanking for all her anime esque screaming and raving. Lord Nasher was also quite surly, you think the guy would want to have your babies...not just gripe all the time.

Some of the side quests were often quite interesting, such as the trial where you have to defend the Uthgardt, but at the same time they could have made that a much grander affair. Many of the other side quests were boring, oh look it's a Modron Maze...oh sorry i mean default dungeon number 3... *sigh*

It is indicting i think that there is more work put into the tilesets of the caverns than any other, at least that is how it seemed to me.

The rewards as one progressed through the game were also questionable, i spent most of the game with the same swords, there wasn't even my old friend "POWERGAMING" to rely on, so i get 5000 for completing a quest, it then costs me 25'000 to construct a reasnoable set of armor...something about that doesn't tally.

My favourite moment was when i reimported a Barbarian just for a laugh and went into the Prison, on entering one of the chamber i was greeted with about 14 mages all firing acid arrows at me...it was quite a battle to remove them all and possibly my most difficult battle on the game.

They could have spent a little more time balancing items, i went through 2 chapters with the exact same weapon because nothing I found was any better

On that note can anyone tell me why my Uthgardt ceremonial blade can not harm a Baalor yet my Composite Longbow +3 can?

It's little niggles that could have been looked over with a truly great plot, and that my friends is what i feel is missing the most.

I do really like this game, don't get me wrong. I think it is a true innovation of the genre and with the mod work from many of the community veterans it is sure to only improve over time, even I have dabbled with the Aurora Toolset and am enjoying my time with it (even if i do hate scripting

). I say to everyone who hasn't already, buy the game, there is a great deal of crap games out out there, just don't expect it to be an all encompassing masterpiece like BG2.

Oh i haven't mentioned henchman since that debate has been done to death

There are several other aspects that i could also comment on but by now everyone is tired of me so i will leave it at that

Bloodmist · Post by **Bloodmist** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:13 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
I say to everyone who hasn't already, buy the game, there is a great deal of crap games out out there, just don't expect it to be an all encompassing masterpiece like BG2.

hear hear! It bugs me that its been "cool" to hate NWN, just like it's cool to hate R. A. Salvatore. though it will never scrape the dirt of BG2's boots it is still a very good game in itself. The Easy-To-Use Aurora Toolset was a great thing indead! It really made the game stay on my pc after i was getting tired of Online play and downloading MODS.

Thank you for listening!

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:26 am

Re: Re: My thoughts on NwN - Spoilers

Originally posted by Bloodmist
hear hear! It bugs me that its been "cool" to hate NWN, just like it's cool to hate R. A. Salvatore. though it will never scrape the dirt of BG2's boots it is still a very good game in itself. The Easy-To-Use Aurora Toolset was a great thing indead! It really made the game stay on my pc after i was getting tired of Online play and downloading MODS.

That is a good point and something I hadn't mentioned; longevity. I figure i will be tinkering with the game for ages, i will probably go through it again a few times with different classes and the toolset will keep me going for ages.

BTW I love the sig

Bloodmist · Post by **Bloodmist** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:06 am

Re: Re: Re: My thoughts on NwN - Spoilers

Originally posted by Mr Sleep

BTW I love the sig

Thank you, it wouldn't surprice me if it was true.

Graeye · Post by **Graeye** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:27 pm

IMHO, the wails of disappointment over NWN stem from the fact that most people, myself included, were expecting an even more glorious BG2 (if that's even possible) and from the first time that the game locked up or Tomi ran off into the darkness, they knew the game was not going to meet their expectations.

While the game is not absolutely hideous, I get the distinct impression that NWN is almost a beta release and we all coughed up $50-60 for the honor of being a Bioware play-tester. We all ignored the sage advice to "never buy version 1.0 of ANYthing".

I'm sorry but 90% of gamers are NOT going to screw around with the module-maker thingie and, apparently, that is the whiz-bang feature that the game's defenders are pointing to. Get real. If it's so great, how come the basic game "modules" suck?

(stepping down from soapbox)

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:04 pm

Originally posted by Graeye
I'm sorry but 90% of gamers are NOT going to screw around with the module-maker thingie and, apparently, that is the whiz-bang feature that the game's defenders are pointing to. Get real. If it's so great, how come the basic game "modules" suck?

Well I could site loads of reasons, like being pushed by the producers to rush the release, or i could say it was all the fault of some other external problem...but to be honest I think it was just bad writing, I mean the story is alright to some degree before the whole "World Slaves" part comes to fruition.

I think you sell the average PC gamer short, most are willing to tinker in my opinion but I have as much proof as you do to back up my claims.

Looking at the game as a whole I don't think I was cheated, I had a good laugh messing with the game and I have several more hours to spend messing with it later, cheated is games which take me a weekend to complete and have no added features what so ever, there have been quite a few games in the last few months that were a great deal like this.

Sirius_Sam · Post by **Sirius_Sam** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:15 pm

Well, I'm certainly not going to defend NWN's SP game and I've already released what little venom I had toward this game in another thread awhile back.

Let me just say that over the last few weeks I've had an absolute blast playing through user-created mods (downloaded from NW Vault) with a friend of mine. NWN may not be (is not) what we all were expecting and it falls short on far too many levels to list them all, but if you enjoy it for what it is, it's a whole lot of fun

New stuff (tilesets, hakpacks, modules, skins, portraits, etc.) is being released everyday for the non-modmakers out there, myself included. Although with the great NWN community support, I may try my hand at one soon. There are even some mods out there I would recommend playing, far more than the included SP campaign, as a benchmark for the NWN engine and game, in general.

Say what you will about NWN, it's longevity is solely based on mods and/or expansions released now and in the future; and it looks fairly promising

. If only Dungeon Siege had had this kind of fan-based and company support...

S_S

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 3:23 pm

Three things in NWN disappoint me most:

The way the game was passed off as a decent single player game. It's a good toolset, but the game part sucks. There are no cool tricks in the modules to speak of. Any l33t d00d with time to spare could cook up those modules.
BioWare's obvious inability to learn from their previous product Baldur's Gate. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. While some games attempt to be original and purposefully go in different directions every sequel (Final Fantasy, for example), NWN has preciously little to compensate for its shortcomings compared to Baldur's Gate. The scripting language is great because it's C, not because of what BioWare managed to do with it. While the C stuff offers me more ways around it, I still run into the same problems I do when scripting for Baldur's Gate.
Poor support for persistent worlds. Come on, what would be cooler than one-shot D&D modules? A persistent D&D world, that's what. Why not include the option to save variables on characters? Who cares about inter-mod incompatibility? All the good worlds use server vault characters only.

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 2:19 am

I end the game too. So, I'll make my comments here.

Graphics: Maybe I'm not too related to others game news graphic. But the graphics in NWN are marvelous. The first time I see a 3d engine works well in a estetic view(far better than war3 for example). Rotation, aproximations everything in 3d and I can perfectly play multiplayer with a 56K modem. Really incredible. Best improve of the game in my opinion.

Plot: well, is not that bad, a little too much linear, but is so so...

XP gaining: Is hard to think any other XP system worst than this, they should not copyed the 3rd edition rules. But since they copy the XP system they should now that Familiars and sumonned creatures are already considered in the caster/mage/sorcerer/druid chalenge raiting, they should not be counted as party members because its obviously a personal character ability.

Longevity: I find it very interesting. A very positive point in the game.

Multiplayer: Impresive.

In an overrall I think is a very good game. Even for the creators of BG2.

Ps: I realy don't expect to find another BG2 in others game, it was awewsome(BG2), but keep in the past blind us for others interesting things. I have a friend who still saying that FF3 was the one game, the only game.

Graeye · Post by **Graeye** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 6:01 am

You know how some games just suck you into the screen?

Ever have 4 or 5 hours just evaporate and suddenly realize that there IS a real world around you and that you REALLY have to pee?

Sadly, NWN just ain't wonadose games. (sigh)

Virgil57 · Post by **Virgil57** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 5:59 pm

Well I played NWN till chapter 3, got IWD2 and I am actually doubt if I will every finish NWN. I really though the Aurora toolset was going to be awsome. I have to say after making my own little mods in the IE engine using mainly team BG tools and a couple others such as Near Infinity, the IE engine is A LOT more customizable. Just a quick example: you will never be able to create elven chain or mithril armor in NWN b/c the editor ties AC to armore weight

I found the amout of traps and the amount of damage in the game to be revolting. My paladin would often set of a trap at full health only to be instatly killed. Which forced me to take Tomi along for a henchman

This really sucked b/c I had to dump Linu, whom I felt was the most interesting henchman. I think the only way this game would ever come into the light is if you played a multiplayer campaign. However, I do not have the time nor do I know anyone interested in multiplay, so I lost interest real quick.

Eriks · Post by **Eriks** » Thu Sep 19, 2002 12:57 am

Okay this is going to be long, so let me start with the short list of positives. The amount of customization you can bring to a character is amazing (although not appearance wise, or roleplaying wise, read on). The map and orientation was well done, and most environmental visuals were good. A couple of unique and intersting quests (the barbarian trial comes to mind) gave the game a couple flickers of light in the darkness (although they were quickly extinguished... read on). Well thats about it for the positives list.

It doesn't compare to BG series or even Icewind Dale series. Sure, you may say its a good game none the less, and its fine, but something was missing. I don't know what it is but I never felt immersed in the game, not even for a minute. None of it was realistic, the graphics may be very good but the immersion factor in Infinite Engine games is far superior. In BG/IWD when I won an easy battle I felt like a powerful hero, when I died in a hard battle I felt challanged. In NWN, When I won an easy battle I was bored, when I died on a hard battle I was annoyed. The fact that you had to keep changing henchman to do different things was also unrealistic and roleplaying factor was almost non existent. Most of the monsters you fight were just defending themselves for the most part because most of the game consisted of you barging into random caves and killing anything inside. This didn't make me feel like a hero it made me feel like an amatuar adventurer/grave robber. Another low point is the lack of strategy. With a party there is always strategy involved in all medicore-hard battles. In NWN it is all hack and slash or cast spells blah blah buff me blah blah more hack and slash (this is mainliy due to poor AI, and the limit of one henchman). The lack of strategy made the difficulty setting a joke, items were way overpowered for easier modes and the game was still near impossible on harder modes. Which reminds me, henchmen... sigh what is up with that. I really enjoyed games where you had a party of comrades, not 1 person with you who is there because you payed him to be. All the henchman quests were repetetive. It was always find something. What is the likelyhood that every single henchman needs something in each chapter and that you will happen to find it? Once again, no realism and repetetiveness reigns. Story is predictable, I was never really surprised by anything. I could tell Desthar was a bad guy right from the start, and the way he was always mocking my efforts and evidence that there was a cult in the city made it plain, yet even though I knew I couldn't tell anyone in the game and I was expecting the attack when I got the cure. Once again, roleplaying is nowhere to be seen, I had to pretend I was a moron. Also, the game is unpolished, all the little things that make good games great are not there. Too many bugs, choppy gameplay at times, PATHETIC choices of sounds for character, crappy looking heavy armor for elves and other races (metal skirts anyone?), overpowered items, no challange after chapter 2 (when I had over 1 million gp and could get whatever I wanted without even thinking about it, the game started to lose its already low appeal). And is it just me or did the character appearance customization totally blow? (especially for humans) Annoying NPCs aplenty (throughout the game I had no idea why I even bothered working for Aribeth or Lord Nashar)... and I can go on and on.

Many of these things apply only to single player, so what about MP you say? Well TOO MANY of the above apply to the game in general as well, not just sp. Also, it is very hard to get a good MP game going and usually proves to be a waste of time. The toolset is fun but really, a lot of the crappy things will always remain no matter who makes the game, and lets face it, there isn't one really good MOD out there that is worth playing (there may be a couple of descent short ones, but if thats all that such a huge community can come up with than how good can it be?). Furtharmore, I personally didn't buy the game for the toolset and never really planned on using it. You may call me a fool, but seriously, how many people would pay 60 dollars for a toolset to be able to make their own game? Why should I do that when I can buy already made great games for that price, made by professionals?
...
If anyone wants my copy of NWN I will sell it for 20 dollars, just let me know on this thread. It is currently collecting a vast assortment of dust particles under my bed.

Bottom line is I loved NWN for the first week I played it, because I kept hoping... BELIEVING that it was just the beginning and things would heat up. *BUZZER SOUND* That is INCORRECT.

p.s. I am currently playing IWD II and it is amazing. It too is not BG, but I am enjoying it very much, so saying that NWN is not BG doesn't cut it. It just is not good enough IMHO.

Eriks · Post by **Eriks** » Thu Sep 19, 2002 5:32 am

Just wanted to add that the toolset is fun and NWN is worth having if you have friends who have the game and if you have enough time to play together AND if someone can make some seriously good MODS. That would be really fun actually, but alas most MODS are not worth it and as I mentioned above most MP sessions turn out to be a waste of time

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Thu Sep 19, 2002 6:22 am

Another thing that did get on my nerves was the fact that there wasn't a map to click on; you had to guide your PC everywhere.

lunarwater · Post by **lunarwater** » Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:36 am

Anyone like that DARKREALMS server/mod that is out on gamespy? That is a pretty cool PW. Bravo to them.

------------

Does that $20 include shipping (within US?) and have you pimped the CD out to anyone in any way? (PM me the details)

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Sep 19, 2002 12:20 pm

And why shouldn't we compare NWN to its predecessor BG? Same kind of game, made by the same people. Why didn't they do for NWN what they did for BG? Why can the holy BG not be topped after three years of work? I mean, if they had rebuilt BG2 in the Aurora engine, every NWN critic would have loved it to bits. 2D/3D, who cares? "Oh, this game is so great, you can see stuff from different sides!" Yeah, right. That's not what makes a game great.

I actually bought the game for the Toolset. The single player campaign is just an, er... "bonus". I don't think it was worth the money, but since it's the only D&D world building set out there I had little choice. If any other gaming company out there decides to release a D&D toolset I'm pretty sure it'll be superior to this one.

BioWare has become arrogant after Baldur's Gate's success and suffers the delusion that they can actually improve the game by departing from D&D rules. They also let the story development be subjected to artificial stuff like word count limits (one of the reasons ToB has such lousy dialogue) and minimum play hours. The result: a huge hackfest. Me, I'd rather spend my $60 on a wonderful game that lasts me ten hours than a tasteless Diablo clone full of spineless hack and slash areas that lasts me 40 hours.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Thu Sep 19, 2002 4:38 pm

I recall that there was a fella who died after the production of BG2, I wonder (rather flipantly

) how much of a difference his death had/has on Bioware projects. I know the sounds selfish, I just wondered.

Eriks · Post by **Eriks** » Fri Sep 20, 2002 3:29 am

I don't think Bioware's standards have lowered since BG II, just look at ToB and most recently Icewind Dale II. It is just that they seemed to think that flashy 3D graphics will make a game good and that is not the case. I am bitterly disappointed that they are saying goodbye to the infinite engine

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Fri Sep 20, 2002 5:59 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
I recall that there was a fella who died after the production of BG2, I wonder (rather flipantly ) how much of a difference his death had/has on Bioware projects. I know the sounds selfish, I just wondered.

The guys was Dan Walker, he was a fantastic artist...

Baldursgate Fan · Post by **Baldursgate Fan** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 11:05 am

Originally posted by Xyx
Three things in NWN disappoint me most:
The way the game was passed off as a decent single player game. It's a good toolset, but the game part sucks. There are no cool tricks in the modules to speak of. Any l33t d00d with time to spare could cook up those modules.

BioWare's obvious inability to learn from their previous product Baldur's Gate. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. While some games attempt to be original and purposefully go in different directions every sequel (Final Fantasy, for example), NWN has preciously little to compensate for its shortcomings compared to Baldur's Gate. The scripting language is great because it's C, not because of what BioWare managed to do with it. While the C stuff offers me more ways around it, I still run into the same problems I do when scripting for Baldur's Gate.

Poor support for persistent worlds. Come on, what would be cooler than one-shot D&D modules? A persistent D&D world, that's what. Why not include the option to save variables on characters? Who cares about inter-mod incompatibility? All the good worlds use server vault characters only.

I couldn't have put it better myself. It's all about game play, IMHO. Speaking for myself, I am willing to overlook stunning graphics if the game has "content". Planescape Torment is a case in point; while its graphics are nothing to shout about, I have already replayed it for, ooh, 7 times from start to finish. As for the BG series and its mods, I have lost count.

I suspect the Bioware guys are aware of this, if their poll on whether fans will buy NWN Collector's edition is anything to go by. Not surprisingly, the content it comes with is the most important consideration.

I bought NWN without expecting it to be another epic like BG or IWD, which I have yet to play. Even then, it has fallen way short of my expectations. It took me less than 14 game hours to finish NWN, and I am not even a good player to begin with.

Perhaps, I have been well and truly spoilt by the BG mods (Kelsey, Solaufein and Tashia spring to mind), but I didn't enjoy any of the NWN mods.

All this while, the optimist in me was rather hoping that it would be another BG epic. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." How apt.

To end on a bright note, I have just gotten my hands on the IWD II Collector's Edition yesterday, and FWIW, I find myself liking it more than NWN. Glorified hack 'n slash at its best

Thanks to Mr Sleep and Xyx for saying it as it is, while I won't go so far as to recommend buying the game, it could be worth a look if the Single Player content can be improved with "killer" mods.

Cheers!