I've read alot of reviews of Pools of Radiance and they all seem to share a common criticism on the game...the 3rd edition rules. Maybe their discomfort just comes from being unused to the rules. I've only read bits and pieces about the rules but it seems like the new rules makes it easier to create super characters. Granted I'm not a true student of the PnP aspect of AD&D.
Since I expect to be playing NWN when it finally arrives, I was curious as to what some of the vets of AD&D who are familiar with the new rules think of it. Better than 2nd edition? Or did they nerf it into a hole in the ground?
A ? to all students of PnP AD&D.
A ? to all students of PnP AD&D.
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THE JAKER
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First of all, POR is not really a good representation of 3E rules - they left a couple classes out and don't let you pick your own skills. So I don't think it really reflects badly on 3E per se.
As far as 3E rules go, I haven't played them in PnP but I have studied them - I think there's a lot of good there, they got rid of some things from 2nd E that were silly and frustrating. I sort of object to the new rules being called "3rd edition" though, because they are so different from 2nd edition it's more like just a new game. They seem like pretty good rules, but I think i've worked with better rules before. They tried to simplify some things, which is good, but there are still some unfortunately over-complex areas.
As far as creating super-characters goes, I think that is possible in any system, I wouldn't really say it's any more possible in 3E, it's always up to the DM or the game developers to limit things a little.
As far as 3E rules go, I haven't played them in PnP but I have studied them - I think there's a lot of good there, they got rid of some things from 2nd E that were silly and frustrating. I sort of object to the new rules being called "3rd edition" though, because they are so different from 2nd edition it's more like just a new game. They seem like pretty good rules, but I think i've worked with better rules before. They tried to simplify some things, which is good, but there are still some unfortunately over-complex areas.
As far as creating super-characters goes, I think that is possible in any system, I wouldn't really say it's any more possible in 3E, it's always up to the DM or the game developers to limit things a little.
May you walk on warrrrm sannd....
I used to play PnP AD&D in the late 70's and early 80's, and I just bought the 3rd Edition Players Handbook and DM's Guide. I have only read through the Chapter on combat, and I have a mixed opinion about the new rules.
Most of the changes make sense to me. It actually seems harder to make a "super character" because of the slow progression of feats, skills, and ability scores. I'm very glad, though, that they finally addressed the concept of training to improve abilities. E.G., lifting weights to increase strength or getting a thief to show you how to pick pockets. Before, there was no provision for things like that. A fighter could never pick pockets; a wizard couldn't even pick up a sword. It didn't make sense. I'm even happier about the new multi-class system. That's the way it always should have been. Still, why can't a Monk practice another craft at the same time? No Monk/Thief? What about the Ninja? (Oh, I forgot -- no katana, no ninja-to.)
I do think that the thieves got hosed, though. They don't start off with enough skill points to even perform their basic functions. Especially non-humans. Rogues lost long swords -- that really hurt. And the backstab modifier went down.
I'm glad everyone has access to armor, now, but I hate the way armor affects the Dex bonus. Now the guy who is strong and fast is no better off than the guy who's strong but slow if they're both wearing plate mail.
Over all, I am overjoyed that characters are even more customizable under 3rd Edition Rules; role play is enhanced beyond belief. For my money, they got the new rules 85-90% right, but I'm not finished reading yet. We'll see if they get better or worse.
Most of the changes make sense to me. It actually seems harder to make a "super character" because of the slow progression of feats, skills, and ability scores. I'm very glad, though, that they finally addressed the concept of training to improve abilities. E.G., lifting weights to increase strength or getting a thief to show you how to pick pockets. Before, there was no provision for things like that. A fighter could never pick pockets; a wizard couldn't even pick up a sword. It didn't make sense. I'm even happier about the new multi-class system. That's the way it always should have been. Still, why can't a Monk practice another craft at the same time? No Monk/Thief? What about the Ninja? (Oh, I forgot -- no katana, no ninja-to.)
I do think that the thieves got hosed, though. They don't start off with enough skill points to even perform their basic functions. Especially non-humans. Rogues lost long swords -- that really hurt. And the backstab modifier went down.
I'm glad everyone has access to armor, now, but I hate the way armor affects the Dex bonus. Now the guy who is strong and fast is no better off than the guy who's strong but slow if they're both wearing plate mail.
Over all, I am overjoyed that characters are even more customizable under 3rd Edition Rules; role play is enhanced beyond belief. For my money, they got the new rules 85-90% right, but I'm not finished reading yet. We'll see if they get better or worse.
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fable
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You may want to move this over to the RPG Discussion category, as it really isn't BG2-specific. Not that I really mind a lot, but you'll probably get a lot more comments in that category.
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I have played 2nd ed rules for about 5 years now and have played 3rd ed since it came out.. I like the feats and I also like the fact there is no thaco.
Draw backs.. There is no true classes. I have seen players at least in the games I have been in have up to 3 or 4 different classes. This resluts in SUPER POWERED Characters.. The whole system is geared to some new crazed combat rules it's way to easy to hit someone in 3rd ed they need to up the ac's of things by about 5-8 points.. and god forbid you try to trip or grab someone.. Whole mess of rules.. Attacks of opertunity should be banned..
Whoops sorry started ranting again..
*gets of soap box*
Draw backs.. There is no true classes. I have seen players at least in the games I have been in have up to 3 or 4 different classes. This resluts in SUPER POWERED Characters.. The whole system is geared to some new crazed combat rules it's way to easy to hit someone in 3rd ed they need to up the ac's of things by about 5-8 points.. and god forbid you try to trip or grab someone.. Whole mess of rules.. Attacks of opertunity should be banned..
Whoops sorry started ranting again..
*gets of soap box*
Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names..
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CtrlAltDel
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It is not easier to hit people under 3E rules. If it looked like that, you were probably testing with above-average characters.
What is a "super character"? High level? Out of proportion to his buddies? Or simply too good for the game? If the last, then the game is too easy, not the characters too "super".
What is a "super character"? High level? Out of proportion to his buddies? Or simply too good for the game? If the last, then the game is too easy, not the characters too "super".
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
About 3rd edition:
Some things were not very well thought out. The fact that you can multi-class "freely" (with only some alignment restrictions keeping things in check) means some classes are totally screwed. Ranger, for instance, gets lots of goodies at level 1, but very few after that. It's easy to create a character that's Ranger1/Rogue 5 who is far nastier than a Ranger 6. Meaning, better in combat, sneaking, nature skills, tracking, hide in shadows, etc. Same is true with the poor bard; in a system where multiclassing is free, what's the point of a generalist? Instead of a bard grab a Rogue 8/Sorcerer3 or something. Way more skills, more of a generalist, more eventual spells (better list) etc. Not that Ranger/Bard (pure) are usuless, just somewhat less than what they once were. Or Rogue/Sorcerer/Fighter, etc.
BTW they really did good job with rogues; using bonus dice instead of multipliers and allowing sneak attacks not just during surprise round -- makes rouge's effective in combat at high levels -- not true before with thieves!
Magic is as silly as ever; still not a "spell point" count. If you have 5 5th level spells, you have to use 5 5th level spells (memorize, cast, rememorize except for Sorcerer). Metamagic feats are possible, letting you maximize spell damage, increase range, etc. More flexible to an extent. Still D&D pretty much.
Yes combat got strange. They introduced movement within combat. You don't just run up to a orc and whack him anymore. You use miniatures, move, and go through attacks of opportunity etc. when necessary BEFORE closing to melee range. With ranged melee weapons (don't ask) it's way confusing. Takes a while to get. It's ok but... not an elegant solution, I don' think.
Super-powered characters? Yes, very easy. Grab level of Monk, now you can add Wisdom AND Dex bonuses to AC (when not wearing armor). Grab a level of Duallist now add Int. modifier and Wisdom and Dex to AC. Now you have something disgusting. Lots of the prestige classes (won't be in NWN) have gross easily-abused powers and features. Don't mention psionics, either. Brrrrr.
Any system can be abused. Is 3E easier than normal? I think so. An average player will create a character that, by 5th level, is probably 10 times weaker than that created by a decent min/maxxer.
The fact that characters can create their own magic items is also... um... interesting...
Some things were not very well thought out. The fact that you can multi-class "freely" (with only some alignment restrictions keeping things in check) means some classes are totally screwed. Ranger, for instance, gets lots of goodies at level 1, but very few after that. It's easy to create a character that's Ranger1/Rogue 5 who is far nastier than a Ranger 6. Meaning, better in combat, sneaking, nature skills, tracking, hide in shadows, etc. Same is true with the poor bard; in a system where multiclassing is free, what's the point of a generalist? Instead of a bard grab a Rogue 8/Sorcerer3 or something. Way more skills, more of a generalist, more eventual spells (better list) etc. Not that Ranger/Bard (pure) are usuless, just somewhat less than what they once were. Or Rogue/Sorcerer/Fighter, etc.
BTW they really did good job with rogues; using bonus dice instead of multipliers and allowing sneak attacks not just during surprise round -- makes rouge's effective in combat at high levels -- not true before with thieves!
Magic is as silly as ever; still not a "spell point" count. If you have 5 5th level spells, you have to use 5 5th level spells (memorize, cast, rememorize except for Sorcerer). Metamagic feats are possible, letting you maximize spell damage, increase range, etc. More flexible to an extent. Still D&D pretty much.
Yes combat got strange. They introduced movement within combat. You don't just run up to a orc and whack him anymore. You use miniatures, move, and go through attacks of opportunity etc. when necessary BEFORE closing to melee range. With ranged melee weapons (don't ask) it's way confusing. Takes a while to get. It's ok but... not an elegant solution, I don' think.
Super-powered characters? Yes, very easy. Grab level of Monk, now you can add Wisdom AND Dex bonuses to AC (when not wearing armor). Grab a level of Duallist now add Int. modifier and Wisdom and Dex to AC. Now you have something disgusting. Lots of the prestige classes (won't be in NWN) have gross easily-abused powers and features. Don't mention psionics, either. Brrrrr.
Any system can be abused. Is 3E easier than normal? I think so. An average player will create a character that, by 5th level, is probably 10 times weaker than that created by a decent min/maxxer.
The fact that characters can create their own magic items is also... um... interesting...
Very informative and sensible post by Two, except perhaps for this bit:
Also, while it is true that some prestige classes have interesting extras, 90% of them don't, and add nothing to the game that wasn't already in there in some form or other. Assassin? Just a Rogue that specializes in sneaking and backstabbing. Ninja? A Monk/Rogue. Swashbuckler? A Fighter/Thief. Chain Master? A Fighter that specialized in chains.
D&D3 uses, by default, a "point buy" system to generate ability scores. Gone are the days of rolling up characters; instead you get a fixed number of "points" to "buy" your ability scores. Result: no-one has BG2 type stats anymore, but usually something in the range of 10-16.Originally posted by two:
<STRONG>Super-powered characters? Yes, very easy. Grab level of Monk, now you can add Wisdom AND Dex bonuses to AC (when not wearing armor). Grab a level of Duallist now add Int. modifier and Wisdom and Dex to AC. Now you have something disgusting. Lots of the prestige classes (won't be in NWN) have gross easily-abused powers and features.</STRONG>
Also, while it is true that some prestige classes have interesting extras, 90% of them don't, and add nothing to the game that wasn't already in there in some form or other. Assassin? Just a Rogue that specializes in sneaking and backstabbing. Ninja? A Monk/Rogue. Swashbuckler? A Fighter/Thief. Chain Master? A Fighter that specialized in chains.
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.