Evil and Good party thoughts

ruined letters · Post by **ruined letters** » Sun Sep 22, 2002 4:32 pm

No man does evil knowingly. - Aristotle

Well then, I do not agree with this quote 100%, but I think that it is somewhat true. I believe that people do commit evil knowingly, but only when 1.) they choose the lesser of two evils 2.) they have no choice 3.) they don't want to but are too weak to resist 4.) get something really really good out of it or 5.) are caught up by emotion and feel bad about it later.

I think therein lays the biggest set back of Evilness in the BG series and in fact most RPG's, even computer games on a whole, and in fact perhaps all media, books, etc.

It seems to me that in BG evil exists simply for evil's sake, in many cases the 6 rules above do not apply and evil happens just because that character happens to be evil. I personally think that quests should not be so 2 dimensional as to give you evil and good choices but should give you just choices in general. I also think that choosing what allignment your character is is completely unnecessary and ridiculous. I do not believe that the characters should have allignments in the beginning but the allignment should be created after they have completed actions, much like how reputation is done. Also, why do evil characters need a low repuation? I think that is quite ridiculous. I know it would be nearly impossible to incorporate these aspects in a computer game and I know BG tried to stick with traditional DnD.

Please post comments, I may make a post like this in SYM too if it gets off topic here. Also, it seems more people would respond in SYM, so if turnout here is low I will create another thread.

Everclearules20 · Post by **Everclearules20** » Sun Sep 22, 2002 4:42 pm

There would be no good without evil and vice versa. Without having sides there would be no battle, no quests (besides finding something someone lost), no heroic feats, etc...

Anyway you look at it, the quests are going to turn out good or evil. You can 1) Save a person from dying and be thought of as 'Good' 2) Let them die or help them die and be considered 'Evil' 3) Or run away scared, and be considered a bad person, aka 'Evil'.

I do agree that you shouldnt have to choose your alignment at the begining though, it should be based upon your actions. No matter how nice you act to be a good person, or how bad you act to be an evil person, it all comes down to how your actions affected the people.

Evil characters have a low reputation because people dont like them. The commoners only want peace, and a good life, and will be none to thrilled when the evil character comes up and kills them. Where as they will be thankful of the 'Good' person who saves them. Basically if you do something bad (Evil) people will not like you for it, if you do something nice (Good) people will like you for it. (People as in commoners, nobles, etc.. who want good, peaceful lives)

Firinflablaze · Post by **Firinflablaze** » Sun Sep 22, 2002 7:38 pm

I strongly disagree with Aristotle. Although many times you accidently will make a mistake, I don't consider that evil, as you didn't know any better. Evil is when you know something is wrong and do it anyway, and is what most people do trying the justify their actions as

1.) they choose the lesser of two evils 2.) they have no choice 3.) they don't want to but are too weak to resist 4.) get something really really good out of it or 5.) are caught up by emotion and feel bad about it later

#1 is the only one I can really agree with, as the others can all be worked around. You never have no choice

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

and if you're too weak that is simply something to overcome, you still are evil, and the last two are simply easily seen as evil (so what if you felt bad about it later, it's still wrong) I believe we are all inherently evil, and thus I find it fun to roleplay people who are totally good, as this is impossible for me in real life. It seems to me in BG good exists just for good's sake, which is totally unrealistic. You're right though, alignment choice is not a good idea. I heard that in PS:T it's by action as well. Can anyone confirm?

Obike Fixx · Post by **Obike Fixx** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 9:00 am

The stuff about there is no good or evil: D&D is NOT this world, it is VERY diffrent. You can't possible know their way of thinking, a goblin might be raised evilly, because of their culture.You MIGHT be right about that there is no good or evil in this world.

Btw, in Planescape Torment and Neverwinter Nights, your alignment changes to good if you do good(evil if you do evil), and Lawful if you follow a pattern, and control yourself.

DraySkullan · Post by **DraySkullan** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:52 am

The reason you choose your alignment is for roleplaying purposes. When you start your adventure, this is not the "birth" of the character. This person has lived a life up until that point, and that is what has dictated his alignment. His actions, as determined you (what you choose as the characters background and personality) or the game/DM for NPC characters is what has made them good, evil, neutral, lawful, or chaotic. From the start of the game it is your job to roleplay that characters alignment, not create it. You create it when you make the character, giving them personality traits, background, morals, code of action, etc.

khimaira · Post by **khimaira** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 11:51 am

I agree with Aristotele. No man does evil knowingly. Very wise.
Let's think about those "bad guys" in most of different kinds of movies. Like Batman or James Bond. There the bad guys do evil things knowingly, and their motive for that is "beacause they're evil."

That is SO unrealistic. No one wants to do evil things, but everyone has different opinions of what is evil. So Firgraag isn't really EVIL when he thinks, that it is RIGHT for him to have revenge. Others may think, that revenge is a baaaad thing, but no, not him. Sauron may not be evil if he thinks, that hey, I like dark and creepy places, and hey, I should be the one who RULES ALL! Tiax isn't evil either, when he thinks like that, right? They just think, that it is right that way.

And I agree with the other's of choosing PC's alignment. It IS true, that the game doesn't start from the birth of the protagonist, so he must have some charachter, though it would be good, if alignment would change in BG1/2 too.

Everclearules20 · Post by **Everclearules20** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 12:43 pm

Originally posted by khimaira
I agree with Aristotele. No man does evil knowingly. Very wise.
Let's think about those "bad guys" in most of different kinds of movies. Like Batman or James Bond. There the bad guys do evil things knowingly, and their motive for that is "beacause they're evil."

That is SO unrealistic. No one wants to do evil things

Given that they are characters in movies, and that they are not real, it's not the best thing to compare to. Theives steal money knowinlgy, most murderers kill people knowingly, ALOT of people lie knowingly. Are those things ok, did God intend for us to be joyful when someone did that?

But your excuse for Firkraag not thinking what he is doing is evil is very untrue. If I went around killing people, stealing, lieing, cursing, burning, promoting satan, and the like, yet I thought that was a good thing to do, would I then be doing good?

khimaira · Post by **khimaira** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 1:03 pm

Hmmn. But I ment that to me or to most of the people you would be evil, but then again, some who might have a little twisted mind could think, that hey, welcome to the club, man! As someone already said, there is no good and evil. But still, everyone has own opinions about right and wrong. What is good to one, may be evil to the other.

Aramant · Post by **Aramant** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 1:05 pm

One major thing that must be taken into consideration, aside from how yummy the grape juice is that I'm drinking, is that people in the D&D or BG world don't think of themselves in terms of their alignment. The idea of being "Lawful Good", for example, never crosses a paladin's mind. The alignment tags are entirely from an omniscient point of view. It doesn't matter if a character thinks he's doing a good thing, or a chaotic thing. The judgement is based upon the opinion of a totally unbiased third party. When the player picks the alignment of his character, he becomes the third party. When the game begins, the DM becomes the third party. The actual character doesn't think about it at all. He likely knows what is the right or wrong thing is, or what the laws are, but his decisions aren't based upon any thoughts of "well, I'm a good person, so I have to do this".