Because I didn't know where else to post this (spam responsibly)

[Ned Flanders]

I was browsing the BG and BG2 forums for a while and got to thinking about those two games. The unique characteristic exhibited in these two games and more so in BG2 is the use of NPC's and the life they brought into the world in which the game was set.

For me personally, the interaction of the NPC's in BG2 is what makes it stand out above all the other crpg's over the past few years. I've played a large majority of the CRPG's to come out since BG, but none of them compare to BG2.

Why is it do you think, all games designed since have opted to exclude one of the things bringing the most life to CRPG's?

I, for one, would like to see another game that places a great deal of emphasis on the personality of available NPC's in a crpg. Personally, since BG2, I think Arcanum has done the best job. However, with Arcanum, the NPC's seem to have a lot of personality until they join the party at which time they officially sew their mouths shut.

I suppose this topic has been beaten to death but I like death so comments welcome.

[Everclearules20]

I loved that too, but It seems to me more people want Power Games like Diablo 2, rather than RPG's like Baldur's Gate 2. I've only met one person in my town that has played Baldur's Gate before and liked it, where as everyone else hated it because 'the story got in the way of the game'. Which is quite sad when the story IS the game...

[Bloodmist]

Originally posted by Everclearules20
'the story got in the way of the game'

Christ that guy must have been lame, no offence intended.

[Jaesha]

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
I suppose this topic has been beaten to death but I like death so comments welcome.

...Indeed. But nevertheless, an opinion worthy.
I have only played BGI, BGII, Torment, NWN and IWD, BGII would get my vote anyday, eventhough Torment had some really characteristic (and cool, too) NPC´s. Those of BGII were just more....innovative, I think. Minsc is, IMO, absolutely exceptionally. Everything about him from his intellince to his head tattoo to Boo has a "never-seen-before" kinda look.
Also, Jan´s long and hilarous lines spring instantly to mind.

Looking at the 3D crpg games, the makers seem to care WAY too much about graphics, however, I haven´t seen a single 3D game where the graphics (maybe except GTA3 for PS2) stunned me. They never get that realistic feel, because everything is still just pixels when you get up in close.
2D games like the above mentioned black isle crpg´s put graphics aside (´cept for NWN, which, I think, is pretty crap BTW, no rpg feel at all) and therefore get´s to focus at the much more important factor, the actually vital factor, gameplay.
Of course I don´t need to tell any of you this.

Gameplay is focus.
Far too many companies goes over their heads to impress the player, who is often impressed with the graphics, for about a week or so. Then the fun stops, because the game doesn´t really give you anything except for slick looks.
Black Isle games does what many others cannot, they challenge the player. These people really know what it´s all about.
Therefore, NWN was a big dissapointment to me, because it lost a lot, if not all of the charm. My first major dissapointment was the loss of NPC´s that could join the party, being more than a pay-for-hire henchman just sticking to orders.

*sigh* This is getting too long, somebody please take over here!

So, my point is, several SNES games could beat most of todays 3D games, like Super Metroid, FF3 and Zelda.

~Jae

[Ned Flanders]

Indeed Jaesha, regarding NWN. At this point, I'd rather go through ocarina of time again than play NWN. Of course, I've only been through the SP campaign in NWN with a few friends so perhaps truly designed multiplayer modules will offer more a challenge.

As of late, I've been playing a lot of Warcraft 3. Excellent game, lots of personality. However, the game is linear and you can only do what you're told. There isn't a lot of user input, however, it was never it's intention so no strikes there. It also definitely impresses graphically.

Anyway, meandering around the point, I wonder if any developers have any rpg's in the future with an elaborate NPC array in mind.

I personally don't understand the obsession with impressing the players with graphics. Dungeon Siege was a 30 minute novelty. Can it's graphics currently be outdone. No, but how much can one take of walking in a straight line bashing everything in sight.

IWD2 is pretty fun also, however, we all know there is no character interaction

[Gwalchmai]

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
IWD2 is pretty fun also, however, we all know there is no character interaction

It was the smartest thing they could have done to bring out IWD2 after NWN! If it had come out before, everyone would have been saying "Well, its no BG2!" Now they are saying "Well, at least its not NWN!"

[Ned Flanders]

I refuse to post here because I hate that superman avatar looking down on me.

Damn, it's happenend again.

Well said, Gwally. NWN has become tertiary to warcraft 3 and IWD2. Long live the fighter class in third edition.

[smass]

Ned - I agree with you about the NPC interactions being what made Baldurs Gate the singular experience it was. I loved the games and played them until my eyes bled. Baldurs Gate 2 and Planescape are the two best single player RPGs I have ever played.

I truly am not sure why some other developer has not taken the example and created other games with NPC interaction. That being said - the scripting necessary to make a game as good as Baldurs Gate requires resources. In Bioware's case these resources have been put to use producing NWN over the past few years. I would expect that Bioware will produce a game with similar dynamics to BGII in the future - but they are one designer and have limited resources.

On the subject of NWN - I was very dissappointed with the single player campaign as well - for all the same reasons that you have discussed. I like combat animations and feats - but the story is a big step down. I only got to the beginning of Chapter 3 and stopped. That was 2 months ago. Two weeks ago I decided to give the Argyle test server a try as I had not played multiplayer yet and had been very interested in the idea of Argyles's perpetual world server. Well - hold on to your hat - because I have logged in over 30 hours on this server in the last two weeks alone. Basically every spare minute of time I have to myself.

NWN online in a good roleplaying world like Argyle is a revelation. NPC interaction is great - but how about when you are playing with 20-30 people (real live breathing humans) all with different agendas, motivations, and personalities. NPC interaction cannot compare and the roleplaying that you can do with other people - some who want to kill you - it is a whole different experience. I am an old PnP D&D player - and no game has come close to reproducing the fun of D&D like NWN - in Argyle.

Anyway - just wanted to give my 2 cents - and encourage you or anyone else who was dissappointed in NWN - to give the Argyle test server a try. The real Arygle should be up in a few months - but the test server is already the most fun I have had with my pants on. Seriously - try it - the roleplaying fun is no comparison to canned NPC responses - even as well done as they were in BGII.

[Obsidian]

Slightely off topic here, but I think WC3, with some creative editing and scripting, could stand to be the base of a brilliant CRPG.

What made the BG2 characters so great was their depth. They had a past, present and future, to some extent one you devised. They could disagree with you, and voice their opinions, and to top it off, the fact they reacted with each other with little to no input by the player put them to a whole new level.

I actually haven't purchased IWD2 or NWN. I'm waiting for the lads and lasses of GB to point out an exceptional new game before I buy it.

[Everclearules20]

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
I personally don't understand the obsession with impressing the players with graphics. Dungeon Siege was a 30 minute novelty. Can it's graphics currently be outdone. No, but how much can one take of walking in a straight line bashing everything in sight.

The thing with Dungeon Siege was it's modability, you can literaly make your own game out of it. You can make your own story with as much interaction as you want (Given you are willing to work with the Siege Editor, and find out how to change a few buttons, etc...). You are the only one who knows what you want.

Originally posted by smass
I truly am not sure why some other developer has not taken the example and created other games with NPC interaction.

While we are all talking about how we absolutely love games that have NPC interaction, as you can see in my previous post, there are ALOT more people who only care about what they kill, and what they gain for killing it. Wether it's more powerful items, or a higher level character, that's what they ejoy. Why else is there so many hack n' slash, character leveling, item collecting, etc... games out? I dont know if that's exactly true, but neither do I care, they have their right to have fun the way they want to have it, and I have my fun the way I want to have it. And just because game developers choose not to take the time to create great character interactions, who am I to complain?

[Aegis]

The way I see it, true RPG's are slowly becoming non-existant. The last good one was BG2:ToB, and that was a year ago. Now, people are only concerned with two things, eye candy, and when theire next level is. Because of this, we are presented with these cheesy so-called RPG's that are Diablo, DS, and NWN (Yes, I am so grosely dissapointed with Bioware for that shelf waster). This is partly due to the fact that my generation doesn't care about anything, and that they'd rather see blood then think about something for more than five seconds. It is slowly killing the RPG genre, and turning it into a sort of psuedo version of itself... Oh well... Not much I can do, except rant...

[Xandax]

Originally posted by smass
<snip>
On the subject of NWN - I was very dissappointed with the single player campaign as well - for all the same reasons that you have discussed. I like combat animations and feats - but the story is a big step down. I only got to the beginning of Chapter 3 and stopped. That was 2 months ago. Two weeks ago I decided to give the Argyle test server a try as I had not played multiplayer yet and had been very interested in the idea of Argyles's perpetual world server. Well - hold on to your hat - because I have logged in over 30 hours on this server in the last two weeks alone. Basically every spare minute of time I have to myself.

NWN online in a good roleplaying world like Argyle is a revelation. NPC interaction is great - but how about when you are playing with 20-30 people (real live breathing humans) all with different agendas, motivations, and personalities. NPC interaction cannot compare and the roleplaying that you can do with other people - some who want to kill you - it is a whole different experience. I am an old PnP D&D player - and no game has come close to reproducing the fun of D&D like NWN - in Argyle.

<snip>

I to felt similar, although I liked the single player NwN I was dissapointed when I compared it to games as BG-series.
But when I started logging on to the multiplayer part, that is where NwN shines and this is also primarily what it was made for.
Although I've not played Test Argyle much - it is mainly because I already have a good idea as how to play my character, and don't want people to get to know him before real Argyle (wich is why I also log in "undercover").
I will surly log on loads when Argyle goes live.

NPC interaction is nice and all that - but *nothing* comes close to PC interaction.

NwN is a new chapter for my online-gaming.

[Chanak]

@Ned:

It seems to me that IWD2 is more of a character/party development sort of game (note that it does not seem to lend itself to power gaming), rather than an NPC oriented game. I have enjoyed it in this regard, as it's been fun to develop different sorts of characters. It's certainly not BG2. BG2's strength was in the NPC interaction/development, which was unparalleled, IMO. It'll always inhabit my highest gaming shelf.

I have a little theory regarding the continued evolution of CRPGs. Every milestone sees a new strength emerge. I consider the BG series to be a milestone in story development. Now we are looking at graphics milestones, which games like Morrowind and Dungeon Siege can take credit for. What comes next? I think future games will specialize. I also think that we can't limit ourselves to a single genre, and hinge the fate of CRPGs on it alone. There are other CRPGs coming out - Knights of the Old Republic is one that I look forward to seeing.

Despite my own disappointment with NWN, I'm actually quite optimistic.