Low AC vs dual-wielding.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 10:00 am

What are your opinions in this matter?
I used to go for dual-wielding but lately I have discovered that low AC can be really helpful. Not many monsters have a negative thac0 and only dragons have thac0 lower than -10(I think). In any case if you AC is around -20 you will hardly ever get hit. AC -20 can be obtained by playing a swashbuckler dualed to fighter and having a shield equipped. If you are wearing the red dragon scale, the sentinel and girdle of bluntness plus ring of gaxx and ring of protection +2 etc. you can have an effective AC of -24 or better vs all attacks.
This is in my mind better than dual wielding.

The_Pope · Post by **The_Pope** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 10:46 am

Shields or for wimps not capable of handling 2 weapons at the same time.

Hmm... I wonder if I prefer a mere shield in my offhand or that sweet Crom Faeyr? Hmm...

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: The_Pope ]

two · Post by **two** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 11:04 am

Originally posted by Bruce Lee:
What are your opinions in this matter?
I used to go for dual-wielding but lately I have discovered that low AC can be really helpful. Not many monsters have a negative thac0 and only dragons have thac0 lower than -10(I think). In any case if you AC is around -20 you will hardly ever get hit. AC -20 can be obtained by playing a swashbuckler dualed to fighter and having a shield equipped. If you are wearing the red dragon scale, the sentinel and girdle of bluntness plus ring of gaxx and ring of protection +2 etc. you can have an effective AC of -24 or better vs all attacks.
This is in my mind better than dual wielding.

Personally I think you are onto something!!!
I suspect that in Throne of BHall most average/upper average monsters won't be able to hit AC-20 very often, but AC-10 regularly. I also suspect AC higher than -20 WILL be calculated. AND that when monsters start dishing out 20-30 damage/attack with 4-5 attacks a round, the best fighter around is going to be a unhit fighter.

Please note that it would take very little to make a shield worth using...for example a shield giving +6 to AC and 30% magic resistance would probably be enough to edge out an extra weapon attack. I expect some very powerful shields in the expansion; a shield companion for the holy avenger and the like.

Angelus · Post by **Angelus** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 11:10 am

Originally posted by Bruce Lee:
...you can have an effective AC of -24 or better vs all attacks.
This is in my mind better than dual wielding.

I think that's contradictory in itself.
What will happen if you unequip the shield? You'll still have an AC of about -20, that's still more than enough against just about anyone.

I'd prefer wielding a powerfull second weapon like the CFs or the Flail of Ages anytime, for the extra attack and the specials that they give. Perhaps the only exception is the Shield of Balduran when fighting beholders.

two · Post by **two** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 11:16 am

Originally posted by Angelus:
I think that's contradictory in itself.
What will happen if you unequip the shield? You'll still have an AC of about -20, that's still more than enough against just about anyone.

I'd prefer wielding a powerfull second weapon like the CFs or the Flail of Ages anytime, for the extra attack and the specials that they give. Perhaps the only exception is the Shield of Balduran when fighting beholders.

I agree right now a shield is worthless; hell most special weapons give better bonuses than shields. I expect this to change with new greatly improved shields (for example a shield giving +1 attack per round plus great defense, etc.). If in TOB shields don't "catch up" to weapons like FOAges or the HolyA, nobody will use them.

Angelus · Post by **Angelus** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 11:24 am

I agree that it might be a point in the future, but I also expect some improved armor to appear in ToB, for those who still don't want to use shields.
Btw a shield for the Holy Avenger would be useles since it's a two handed sword.

two · Post by **two** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 11:30 am

Originally posted by Angelus:
I agree that it might be a point in the future, but I also expect some improved armor to appear in ToB, for those who still don't want to use shields.
Btw a shield for the Holy Avenger would be useles since it's a two handed sword.

Duh! Good point. I was, however, talking about the Holy Avenger toothpick, it spears meat chunks from between your teeth with unparalleled accuracy!

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 11:56 am

Halberds away, Um sorry but you've left two handed weapons out i made a charector who has done

26

(halberd) damage none critical using normal starting lvl norm weapon two and you can get weap speed down to 3!! and theres dragon breath, come-on there isnt a single thing imune to all those damage thingys so think about it

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 11:58 am

Originally posted by two:
I agree right now a shield is worthless; hell most special weapons give better bonuses than shields.

Imo there are a couple shields worth using in BG2, though mostly in special circumstances: Balduran vs Beholders, Harmony vs Spellcaster especially at relatively low level, and Reflection for Aerie or Viconia or another shield capable non-melee character.

I expect this to change with new greatly improved shields (for example a shield giving +1 attack per round plus great defense, etc.). If in TOB shields don't "catch up" to weapons like FOAges or the HolyA, nobody will use them.

If a shield gave +1 attack, it would immediately be a strong competitor against dual wielding since +1 attack is the biggest advantage dual wielding gives. Having multiple kinds of weapon attacks is a trade off with having all your attacks come from the weapon of your choice. Still, it's going to be hard for a shield to displace the 25 Str for Crom Faeyr in the off hand or the slow effect of the FoA.

As an aside, the FoA and Crom Faeyr both kick butt over the 'teaser' items I've seen for TOB so far. The rumored FoA +5 is going to be awesome though, especially if it picks up abilities with the upgrade beyond the +4 damage (2 crushing, 1 electrical?, 1 poison?).

rapier · Post by **rapier** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 12:00 pm

Well, I have Minsc using Equaliser and Sentinel and he dishes out around 15 damage every hit, pretty fast attacks and 9 out of 10 hit...

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 12:07 pm

It depends on the character, the situation, and your party. Relatively early in the game when a character is hurting badly and faced with powerful physical attacks, a shield can make the difference between survival and death. Later on, when you have great stuff and powerful defensive spells, it makes sense to put a couple of proficiency points into dual weapons--less to gain additional attacks (IMO than to gain the benefits attached to magical weapons.

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 12:40 pm

My dual-weilding Swashbuckler, at level twenty-three, has an AC of -12 and regenerates 6hp per round (ring of Gaxx, ring of regeneration and boots of speed). He hardly ever gets hit and is usually healed by the time he gets hit again. But because of the damage he inflicts, his enemies usually don't last that long.

two · Post by **two** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 12:50 pm

Originally posted by Saigo:
My dual-weilding Swashbuckler, at level twenty-three, has an AC of -12 and regenerates 6hp per round (ring of Gaxx, ring of regeneration and boots of speed). He hardly ever gets hit and is usually healed by the time he gets hit again. But because of the damage he inflicts, his enemies usually don't last that long.

Um guys... remember it doesn't matter much how great you are in BGII if in BGIII AC-12 is hit by an average monster for 20+ points a hit (multiple hits/round). That will nullify both AC and Regen...

My point is that I can forsee a point where the monsters catch up with -12 AC and will pound it regularly, and that a shield giving +6 or more to AC (making -12 into -18, or -17 into -23) will at that point begin to look attractive.

Sure you will always get better armor as well, but put a great shield on improved armor and when what do u get? I think -25 will be possible for extreme AC (unmodified by spells/bards). Maybe -15 will be average for a fighter, -10 for lesser fighers (bards, etc.).

I guess we won't know until the expansion, until then YES shileds suck, use 2 weapons!

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 2:09 pm

two, yor point would be well taken except for one thing: do you think that the designers have given shield-carrying characters the ability to compete without increasing the available protection for sheildless ones? I'm sure they've taken care of the theives, archers, and dual-weilders too. Not to mention the two-handed weapon weilders.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 2:22 pm

I was doing some testing using the sentinel. Having a shield proved to be better than dualwielding in most cases. The only case that dual wielding is better is IMO in player vs player. I am currently playing a swashbuckler dualed to fighter at level 10. He has Crom Fayer nad Flail of the Ages in his quickweapons slots and his first attack is with the Flail and then with CF. It is unnecessary to keep hitting with the flail. Slow lasts for 20 seconds, so once every 20 seconds is enough. However no monster lasts 20 seconds.

mizuno · Post by **mizuno** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 3:25 pm

personally, i've found most of the shields are way too weak compare with the weapons in SoA. hope they will have soem better shields n ToB. the holy avenger and the combination of crom/FoA are too good at the moment. and staff of magi, staff of woodland, and some other great weapons as well. and the one more down side is with a shield equiped, characters can't use bows and crossbows, that's is a very bad disadvantage!!! the ToB need some great one-hand weapons as well, at the moment, they are way 2 weeak as well, i only except some of them

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Mon Apr 09, 2001 4:31 pm

Dual wielding is nice, but i recommend taking single weapon style. You can get 3 ac bonus and get alot of critical hits! The ac improvment makes up for no shield, and you can have a really good thaco and damage.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Tue Apr 10, 2001 2:23 am

Ok, something to look at which I don't think has been discussed:

Multiclass Cleric/Mage can hold a shield and a sling at the same time.

Your all talking about dual weild vs shields, but thats restricted to fighter class, since it's useless to have anyone else dual weild when they can't have +++ in dual weilding. Otherwise all you end up with is some moron swinging two weapons at you with a horrible THAC0.

Others such as the cleric/mage can use shields more effectively and giving them a nice AC bonus when they sorely need it.

Honestly, for a fighter, dual weilding or a shield? I'd personally go for the dual weilding. But still, an elven fighter with dual weilding longswords would still rate second to a fighter with a nice two handed sword and ++ in two handed weapon style.

Shields aren't useless, they just suit different purposes and have their benefits in other areas.

Something to think about anyway...

sigurd · Post by **sigurd** » Tue Apr 10, 2001 2:35 am

The biggest reason Dualwield is best is the abilities the weapons give, not the extra attacks.

A shield with -5AC or Crom faeyr, raising str to 25?

And lots of other weapons with abilities that works by just wealding the weapon, shields give mostly AC bonuses, exxcept baldurans, but that gives severe penalties as well

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Tue Apr 10, 2001 2:52 pm

I like to use Crom Fayer and a shield however you get it so late so FoA and sentinel is very useful. I am convinced that the shield style is more powerful now. Only getting hit on critical hits does mean a lot. Many monsters have a thac0 ranging from 3 to -3 so getting an effective ac of -23(it is possible) will ensure that only critical hits hit me. This is very powerful since many of the nasty effects in the game follows from a succesful hit, level drain, intelligence drain, ability drain etc.
I am not bragging or anything but my swashbuckler/fighter didn't use any healing other than regeneration from ring of gaxx from chapter two till the end. Granted this character can be boring cause you can pretty much put him on autopilot. I tested his fighting skills by letting him loose in Ust-Natha. With a prot from magic cast on himself I set him on standard attack and went away to cook dinner, when I came back the town was cleared and he was uninjured.