140 dead in Moscow hostage, death toll still rising...

[CM]

Tammy good to see you. Honestly i have lost all faith the in the western world to do what is morally right. I also dont want to discuss politics anymore because i feel i have become exactly what i hate, the conservative intolerant mullah. I feel no remorse for an Israeli, Russian or American death. But if i hear of the death of a Palestinians death, my blood boils. I cant explain why but i just dont feel it is right. So i have stopped discussing politics all together.

[Littiz]

Originally posted by CM
I feel no remorse for an Israeli, Russian or American death.

And you are a moderate one, or so you claim.
This explains why a great part of the "western" world starts to fear
the Islamic world. (this + the bombs, of course)
And this also explains angered outbursts like Fallaci's one.
Yes, she spoke again, after Bali and Moscow.
She now exorts the "whole western world to wake up and defend itself "

[Maharlika]

Personally...

...I think it's ignorance that causes fear.

With due respects, I think CM has already shown in the past how moderate he can be. He may feel no remorse, or so he claims, but I think that it's very much different from doing something to cause such deaths.

Anyway, these rebels have the right to fight for their independence based on what little I know about their history --- but the way they executed their operation on order to get what they want is something that I do not approve of.

If it were a military base that they took over, then I figured that it's "fair game."

[/-\lastor]

Originally posted by CM
I feel no remorse for an Israeli, Russian or American death. But if i hear of the death of a Palestinians death, my blood boils.

Must... keep....calm.
This is what I despise the most in the entire world: indifference on human lives. And this is exactly what is leading the world to war. After 9\11 almost the whole world sympathised with the US, only some idiotic countries which desperately want to anger the western world cheered it on. This made the world of politics very very tense and created a not so small amount of hatred towards the middle east. This kind of comment fuels this hatred greatly. But even though we, the western world, lost thousands of people on 9/11 we still care about human lives, even if were directly opposed to us. What do you think is keeping Bush from invading Iraq? It isn't the fear of the bomb, because Saddam Hussein knows using it is futile and will doom his entire country to a radioactive wasteland. It's the fact that the majority of western countries do not want more innocents to die.

Sorry if I was a bit harsh in this post but CM you just implied that you wouldn't care at all when the majority of this board died a horrible death. That just simply ticked me off.

[Dottie]

@Alastor: I think you missunderstood CMs post, if I am correct he didnt claim he didnt care about Israeli, Russian or American deaths, he said he lacked emotional respons. I cant see how that could be offensive.

Regarding the terrorist/freedom fighter question I think that actions for a fair cause (wich independance alwas is imo, and certainly under those circumstances) even if they are imoral must be forgiven when the power scales are so tipped as in this case. The responsibility to behave in a humanitarian way increases with money and power imo, and because of this I dont think we have any right whatsoever to criticize either chechnyan or palestine methods when 1. Someone else with more power behaves worse, or 2. we are'nt taking part in their liberation.

[frogus]

I disagree Dottie. I think that, while the Chechens are 'freedom fighters', they are also terrorists. The word 'terrorist' has lost a lot of meaning since the WTC was destroyed last year, but as far as I am cocerned, the taking and threatening (terrorsing) of civilian hostages counts as terrorism.
I am not one to say 'terrorism is wrong' as a dogmatic absolute, as Bush is, but I will say that it is the wrong way in which freedom is to be fought for.

This is why Osama bin Laden is not a hero to me, even though I am passionately opposed to the Israeli settlement of Palestinian teritory - It is because he did not do the right thing about it.
The same thing goes for my opposition of the death penalty - and this seems like the same case really. The Chechens are punishing Russians with death for the crimes committed against their struggling country, but that is not constructive.

A life is not worth ending for the sake of having one's plitics heard by a global audience IMO, unless much good will come of it, in the form of a great benefit to many people. However, this will bring a benefit to noone, and the 'freedom fighters' absolutely knew this before they plotted the planting of a mine and explosives in a theatre...

The fact is that killing innocent people will very rarely help the political climate towards freedom and equality for all (I would argue that a case has never come about in the world where it could have helped), so it is almost always the wrong thing to do.

It was certainly the wrong thing to do last Thursday (?). It was a tragic and needless futile killing...

However, the fact that women (in a muslim country) strapped exoplosives around their stomachs in order to kill random people on basis of nationality says a lot about the need for change and positive action to be made by Russia in Chechnya...

[fable]

Originally posted by Littiz
If any of you (ANY of you) was there, he would have hoped for a quick
death of the terrorists. And if you had a kid with you to protect, you
would have killed them with your own hands.
I was watching from a safe place, and could feel pity EVEN for the
terrorists.But being there, there were people to save...

Does this wish for a quick death of the Chechyn terrorists extend as well to a quick death for the Russian army, which has overrun Chechnya, destroyed its government, its economy, countless lives, and is running the nation as a giant concentration camp with complete control in the hands of the wardens? At what point after your parents have been killed, your sister raped and your home torched--without anybody in the world showing a bit of concern--do you get back a bit of your own?

Note, I'm not recommending terrorist actions. I'm just honestly seeking an understanding of how you personally see that an entire nation of people who are being treated as slaves by an occupied force can change their situation for the better, when literally nothing has worked to date. I'm sure the Chechyns themselves would love a few pointers for that.

[CM]

Honestly it is ok /-\lastor. But there is a difference between people here and those who I dont know. There is a degree of seperation. My comments meant that if i hear of a palestinain who has died i dont know i feel the loss. However over the past year when i hear of an israeli death or an american death, like the GI's shot in Kuwait, i feel nothing now. I dont feel remorse, but i dont feel that they deserved it. I just dont feel anything at all for their deaths.

As for someone dying on SYM? I would feel it, even if it was DP and he thought very lowly of me.

I said i wont comment on politics. So i wont. Sadly i have lost that feeling over the past year.

Editted

Edit: My apologise to all whom i have offended, and i bet there are many.

[CM]

My post frogus? What part? I will edit...

[fable]

I'd like to suggest that all remarks made about Palestinians, Israelis, American losses and the like be moved to a separate thread, then it's really a different conversation.

[Gruntboy]

I'd like to suggest they are removed entirely.

CM, I've been feeling the way you do about people who try to kill westerners for some time now - starting from 9/11/2001. Stange that isn't it? I wouldn't have wished death on anyone until someone forced the issue on me. What happened to you to make you feel that way?

Ah but where does it start you say? Not with me it didn't. So the cycle will continue in Chechnya as in the rest of the world. And the chechens can't hope to win - these animals have ended any hope of that. The Russians will flatten the place, again, and I won't compain - the Chechens haven't won my sympathy with their actions.

Why are these people so eager to die? I don't have a problem with granting their desires.

[Dottie]

Originally posted by frogus
I disagree Dottie. I think that, while the Chechens are 'freedom fighters', they are also terrorists. The word 'terrorist' has lost a lot of meaning since the WTC was destroyed last year, but as far as I am cocerned, the taking and threatening (terrorsing) of civilian hostages counts as terrorism.
I am not one to say 'terrorism is wrong' as a dogmatic absolute, as Bush is, but I will say that it is the wrong way in which freedom is to be fought for.

My point isnt that terrorism is a very moral thing to do, my point is that we are argueing about the wrong peoples morality. Imo we should either put pressure on the Russians instead, or we should help the Chechens fight for their freedom in a more humanitarian way, or we should keep our mouths shut about the methods they are using.

The fact is that killing innocent people will very rarely help the political climate towards freedom and equality for all (I would argue that a case has never come about in the world where it could have helped), so it is almost always the wrong thing to do.

Yes, this is my largest problem with terrorism as well. However like fable points out unfortunatly violence seem to be neccesary to change certain things. And looking at how the situation is at certain places, what violence are such groups as Chechnyan rebels capable of that can hurt a nation such as Russia? I really dont know how to solve this problem...

[ThorinOakensfield]

Originally posted by Littiz
And you are a moderate one, or so you claim.
This explains why a great part of the "western" world starts to fear
the Islamic world. (this + the bombs, of course)
And this also explains angered outbursts like Fallaci's one.
Yes, she spoke again, after Bali and Moscow.

But what your idol is doing is no better. Many westerners don't care about people dying in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Palestine, in Chechnya. They don't give a damn about how many people die in these countries. So then why should they give a damn about what happens to westerners? I've heard people say, "lets bomb Afghanistan off the planet", similar things about Palestine, Iraq other people suffering. How pleasent does that sound to you?

She now exorts the "whole western world to wake up and defend itself "

Since the rest of the world has already been screwed up and destroyed.


It goes both ways and you only see it your way. You only see the little amount suffering in the Western World (compared to the rest). Imagine living in these countries where rockets and bombs are falling on top of your head. And who supports these countries? Who supports Israel when their rocket goes flying off? And then you expect not to hate the friends of their enemy?

You have to see it from their point of view. Their families may be dead, their houses destroyed, who knows. What have they got to lose. Their lives are in shambles. (This is the difference between the 9/11 terrorists and the freedom fighters. 9/11 guys lived well, and became fundementalists because they were a bunch of idiots, the freedom fighters live in horrible siuations.)

[Littiz]

Frankly, this is surprising. Almost everybody seem to miss a point here.
You really believe that was "simply" a fight for freedom of a land?
Come on.

• They started with declarations about death for infidels
• They immediately freed ALL the Moslims present at the theater
• The women wore the veils that usually Chechen women *don't*
  wear (every reporter can confirm this): the mark was meant to be clear.
• They had the well known exploding belts (trademark)
• The rebels weren't able to use even mobiles (confirmed by hostages)
• Their first video was transmitted by Al-Jazeera immediately
  after the thing started

You don't really see anything?
Al-Jazeera transmits from thousands miles away. Why that network?
Through which misterous channel/link/contact did the video arrive with
perfect timing?
Who really planned such a vast operation?
International terrorism, islamic fundamentalists, if not Al-Qeida(sp?) itself.

They used a few desperate Chechens, choosing from the most close to fundamentalism,
and organized everything.
The plan, the bombs, the mediatic show. The video for Al-Jazeera.
The pretest was the "local" freedom fight, but it should have appeared
as a success of the international terrorism, and as a call for other "martirs" all
over the world to immolate themselves against the "infidels".

This is the truth of what happened in Moscow.

CM's words didn't offend me, they worried me.
If such are the words of a moderate, then I start realizing what
a fundamentalist may think.
@Thorin: you don't know me and you're making a wrong assumption about me and my "idols"

About explaining why Chechens, or any other oppressed populace, has
not the right to kill innocents despite their suffering, or the lack of
other means... I won't do that.
If there's need to explain this, I realize we deserve everything.
Both sides. Terrorism, oppression, death.
Still I hoped that, if those widows really suffered for their losses,
they could spare this fate to the scared hostages, mothers, fathers, girls
and boys after having met them and seen them for real.
Such would be a human behaviour.

[CM]

Well grunt I have been feeling this this ever since the whole Iraq issue started again. People in Palestine and Israel die every day and Bush wants to start another war. It makes no sense whatsoever. When people are dying why kill more?

But more so over the past month or 2. The whole blackmailing of the UNSC. Iraq, the unresolved issues in Palestine and the lack of aid to help reconstruct afghanistan. Overall the countries that have the power and money arent doing it to save lives, rather their inaction has lead to many more deaths.

I have only started feeling this now. Before Sept 11th, i was one of the few muslims who actually said that the Israelis do have a claim to the land. They should live in harmony with the Palestinians. But the death of palestinian children, the refusal to let pregnant palestinian women to hospitals and the re-occupation of lands, which does nothing except to humilate the people of Palestine has changed my attitude.

Suicide is against Islam, i have stated that before. I think religiously it is wrong...but now i am not sure. It may be religiously wrong but to people who have no other choice is it truely wrong? Over a year ago i would have said yes. They could be peaceful demostrations. Today at this moment? I am not sure at all.

Saddamn deserves to die. I hope he dies in absolute pain. But i will not support the US if it means the death of more innocent people in iraq. Left the sanctions arm the kurds and the people and iraq and you will see what happens. He will be dead quicker than Bill gates can great a bug. They are doing just the opposite. Between 1995 and 2000 500,000 Iraqi children died due to the sanctions. It is a UN figure and the famous quote where Albright said the death of those 500,000 children due to sanctions was worth keeping Saddam under control.

Though i did talk to my dad (1 hour to Malaysia) and i am feeling alot better. I guess since I told tyb i will tell everybody. This week i am feeling extremely down because i lost 2 friends in the intifada and their death anniversary passed over the week. Been a tough week overall.

[/-\lastor]

@CM: I apologize if I was harsh or offended you, I see your point, but next time try to be more... subtle when making you point. I was a bit ticked off about the seeming indifference and the fact that you're even one of the more moderate ones.

@both CM and Fable: Sorry if I went too far, PM me if you want me to delete my posts.

[Nightmare]

Originally posted by fable
At what point after your parents have been killed, your sister raped and your home torched--without anybody in the world showing a bit of concern--do you get back a bit of your own?

This is why I see the them as freedom fighters. I also say they are terrorists, but only for the reason that they killed innocent lives to save other ones. But what choice did they have? What else could they have done, apart from nothing?

All freedom fighters can be considered terrorists by some. Heck, Nelson Mandela could be considered a terrorist. However, not all terrorists are freedom fighters. The Chechens killed and died because they had been driven to it, and they wanted to save whatever was left of Chechnya. They are freedom fighters. Osama bin Laden is not a freedom fighter, because he uses terror because of his hatred of the West, and his religion.

[Koveras]

I think that the Chechnyans that held the hostages are and freedom fighters because they are fighting for their freedom, obviously. However, I think they are also terrorists because they are using terror tactics to get to their goals. If they just fight openly against the Russian army, then I think they won't be terrorists. But like Gaxx said, the Chechnyans can't win their freedom that way, and are forced to commit acts of terror.

[fable]

Originally posted by Koveras
I think that the Chechnyans that held the hostages are and freedom fighters because they are fighting for their freedom, obviously. However, I think they are also terrorists because they are using terror tactics to get to their goals. If they just fight openly against the Russian army, then I think they won't be terrorists. But like Gaxx said, the Chechnyans can't win their freedom that way, and are forced to commit acts of terror.

In a nutshell, that's the problem. It's easy to condemn the Chechyns who held those hostages at a distance. It's another thing when you've had your family farm confiscated, your father killed in front of you (as a "warning"), your sister raped by soldiers, your brothers taken away. That's not an exaggeration. There are hundreds of reported confirmed incidents of this, and worse, from various human rights organizations (before they were expelled by the Russian authorities from Chechnya) and the few doughty Russian reporters who snuck on in, and out again. Remember, these soldiers are being paid next to nothing; and suddenly they're inside a land where they can pretty much do what they want, with superiors who don't care, and a complete lack of news coverage. What would *you* do if you couldn't afford the services of a decently healthy Moscow hooker, only to find yourself lording it a week later over a community of several thousand villagers with many attractive if married daughters and plenty of time to kill?

So what's the answer? If the Chechyns don't perform acts of terror against civilians in Russia to attract attention, what avenue is left to them? I'd really like to hear some good solutions from people who condemn the Chechyns that acted as they did in Moscow. I don't have any answers, myself--I detest terrorism. But you see, I detest rebel *and* state-sponsored terrorism, which puts a different complexion on the events in Chechnya.

And I also realize that terrorism is as old as warfare, and just as deep.

[fable]

The gas was the only mean to stop the bombed women AT THE SAME TIME.

The gas has now been blamed for 177 out of 178 of the deaths among the hostages. Another 200 hostages are on the critical list for gas poisoning. The police are still not saying what was in the gas, which would aid in its treatment, but the Russian press is openly speculating that it was a nerve gas.