140 dead in Moscow hostage, death toll still rising...

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:36 am

This, according to the London Times:

"Russian officials were maintaining their mystery last night, although a top aide of President Putin insisted that the purpose of the raid “was not to kill everyone, and so the use of sarin or any other poison gas can be ruled out”. Viktor Fominykh, the Russian presidency’s top medical official, added: “Consequently it is not essential to know its composition exactly in order to provide treatment.”

Bombarded by questions, Dr Fominykh admitted that not even he had been told the precise composition of the gas pumped into the auditorium."

EDIT: The BBC just announced that the Russian authorities are "still" refusing to name either the gas used, or the antidote to it, though doctors are pleading that at least 50 lives depend upon that information being immediately provided.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 2:52 pm

Yes, I heard the same story as Weasel from the BBC.
An anaesthetic opiate gas absorbable through the skin...

All in all, I think that on the micro level the Russian troops dealt with the situation extremely well, with only one small fault (which created a tragedy). The gas has apprently not been tested suitably to make it's effects predictable, but as far as I can see, there was no other way of doing the operation more safely. The gas was wrong, however.

I do not know if this was a dreadful mistake which lead to a hundred deaths, or if it was, as the more cynical part of me thinks, a somewhat sadistic 'testing exercise' for the gas...

The solution of course, is to give the Chechnyans their freedom, and remove the Russian presence from their country...Then they can start to make something slowly, free from violence. Until the dispiccable instincts of racial hatred and power lust can be overcome, this will not happen...

Koveras · Post by **Koveras** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:53 pm

Whats the story behind Russia not letting Chechnya break off? Resources? Pride? I mean, I know its not easy to let go part of your country but they have been fighting for years now.

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:56 pm

I'm not sure of the official reason, but Chechnya does have a strong influence geographically in the Middle East (where all the oil is). I'm assuming thats at least one reason.

BaronTx · Post by **BaronTx** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:48 pm

1. What do you think about the Chechnyan rebels, do you view them as freedom fighters with a just cause, or as terrorists? How do you think a situation like the Melnikov hostage could happen?

These people are terrorists hiding in freedom fighter garb. If you wish to call yourself a "freedom fighter" You do not take innocent civilians as hostages or make a video proclaiming the deaths of hundreds of infidels. If you truly wish to become a free nation you do it with armed insurrection against the occupying military force. And you attempt to show the world that you do have some honor while prosecuting the war.

2. What do you think should have been done? With hindsight, could the situation have been solved in a less violent and costly way?

You cannot negotiate with terrorists. If you do, you legitimize them and will experience more civilian deaths as they grow bolder.

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:53 pm

Originally posted by BaronTx
These people are terrorists hiding in freedom fighter garb. If you wish to call yourself a "freedom fighter" You do not take innocent civilians as hostages or make a video proclaiming the deaths of hundreds of infidels. If you truly wish to become a free nation you do it with armed insurrection against the occupying military force. And you attempt to show the world that you do have some honor while prosecuting the war.

I cannot see how this is realistic. They won't last long against a trained military force, and even if they did, no one would care. This way, even though I despise them for killing innocent hostages, they got some global attention, although I fear nothing will come of it.

BaronTx · Post by **BaronTx** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 7:04 pm

@ Gaxx - Let me try to put it in a different light. If I were a slave in the Roman Empire and my master was a truly cruel and heartless being. I would never resort to threatening his wife or children to gain my freedom. Perhaps my point of view is archaic or naive, but it seems to me this world is severley lacking in honor, ethics and morals.

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 7:11 pm

Originally posted by BaronTx
@ Gaxx - Let me try to put it in a different light. If I were a slave in the Roman Empire and my master was a truly cruel and heartless being. I would never resort to threatening his wife or children to gain my freedom. Perhaps my point of view is archaic or naive, but it seems to me this world is severley lacking in honor, ethics and morals.

I agree with you. I wish honor, ethics, and morals would be around more in the world. Sadly, they aren't.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 7:58 pm

Originally posted by BaronTx
These people are terrorists hiding in freedom fighter garb. If you wish to call yourself a "freedom fighter" You do not take innocent civilians as hostages or make a video proclaiming the deaths of hundreds of infidels. If you truly wish to become a free nation you do it with armed insurrection against the occupying military force. And you attempt to show the world that you do have some honor while prosecuting the war.

And they did that, and the world didn't care and most of them were killed. There is no way to fight against a trained army especially one that will really stop at nothing to exterminate them.

Although these Chechnyans had some religious objective, I don't think the vast majority do. It has not really been mentioned as a factor (religion).

Most likely what happened: They are growing up in Chechnya. The Russians destroy their homes, kill their family members. They become very religious. (People tend to become religious when they feel they have lost everything). They fall under the terrorists type of organizations. And so on...

It seems like Russia is far more efficient than these Chechnyan "terrorists" in killing hostages.

Koveras · Post by **Koveras** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:05 pm

Thorin, are you saying there's a direct relationship between religion and terrorism?

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:15 pm

No, all I said was that these "terrorists" were religious fanatics, and I believe that the majority of Chechnyans aren't religious.

I did say that when people are down, feel they have lost everything, depressed etc. they become religious because life has brought them alot of bad luck and need something to comfort them, somebody who they can look up to taking care of them.

Not all terrorists are religious. The ones dominating the headlines these days are, though. The religious ones are far more dangerous than the other kinds, at the moment.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:26 pm

Originally posted by BaronTx
@ Gaxx - Let me try to put it in a different light. If I were a slave in the Roman Empire and my master was a truly cruel and heartless being. I would never resort to threatening his wife or children to gain my freedom. Perhaps my point of view is archaic or naive, but it seems to me this world is severley lacking in honor, ethics and morals.

I'd suggest that a better analogy might be WWII. What if the Germans had won, and decided to eliminate all the Jews? What if you were a Jew, watching everyone in your family captured and deported for "The Final Solution?" What if the world really didn't care?

I'm not Jewish, but I bet I know how a Jew (or anybody else, for that matter) would feel in that situation: he would do everything he could to destroy the nation that had destroyed his people. He would join any underground movement, and attempt to blow up buildings, rob banks, hold hostages, etc. When your entire nation is being reduced to rubble, honor isn't much of an issue.

BaronTx · Post by **BaronTx** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:31 pm

@ Fable - Then we disagree. Its as simple as that. I could never take the life of an innocent.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 9:01 pm

But you are saying that after (what I assume) living a life of relative peace and without too much suffering, so you wouldn't know how you would react if you were in a different situation.

At the moment I can't take a life of an innocent either but I'm sure if I'm pushed into a horrible situation like the Chechnyans or any other oppressed people then I would do whatever it takes.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 9:10 pm

Originally posted by BaronTx
@ Fable - Then we disagree. Its as simple as that. I could never take the life of an innocent.

I couldn't, either. But...

Never is a very long period of time. I've known and interviewed people with the French and Italian Resistances during WWII. To a person (and that includes the women), they told me that they wouldn't have dreamed they were capable of doing the things they eventually did: shooting informants, hiding refugees, blowing up buildings, killing German/Italian soldiers. But the complete reversal of their lives meant the old rules no longer applied. To get back to where they could apply again, they had to take courageous steps and move beyond themselves.

Most of them had relatives who died, and they witnessed terrible destruction in the lands. But all of this was nothing compared to what's happened over the last several years in Chechnya. It's as if an entire nation was given off to looting, rape, and administration by a band of thugs without principles. With respect, I don't think any of us can truly say that under those circumstances, we would "never" do what we could to the nation that killed off our nation.

BaronTx · Post by **BaronTx** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 9:21 pm

@ Fable - Yes, I said never and I meant it. Like I said, honor, ethics and morals. Nuff said! I'm done with this!

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:11 am

Originally posted by fable
With respect, I don't think any of us can truly say that under those circumstances, we would "never" do what we could to the nation that killed off our nation.

An innocent *isn't* a nation.
I've followed an entire transmission with reporters from Chechenya.
They witnessed barbaric acts from BOTH parts. You lose sympathy for everyone
when you hear such things.
Your vision is biased, @Fable. All wars are like that.
Someone asked the reasons for Russians to keep the war: resources, and oil
conducts, built for the whole russian population, as were all the investments
made in the region. If the region goes alone, the investments would be lost
for Russians, and all gains would go to Chechenyes.
If russians let it go then it could start a chain sequence with other regions,
with catastrophic results again even for the russian population.
What I mean is, even the rest of the Russian population has some rights.
Not to the point of starting war and death to claim them, of course.
But if you start justifying those who kill innocents, I can start
justifying those who start a war. It's the same thing.
This is why it all goes on: people justify themselves or others, the circle closes itself,
all may keep on forever. And it will.

You kill a young adult's family, take away their property, rape the women,
and you kill them --and create a terrorist.

I don't know how much this applies here.
It appears some of the women came from other islamic countries (not confirmed yet,
informations are fewer by now)
As I told you, that "cause" has a very lesser relevance here than it seems...

Anyway, I don't know what I would do to be heard... maybe I'll chain myself
at the Cremlin... maybe I'd let explode some important economic installations
when no innocent is involved... Or maybe I'd simply cry and despair.
But I know what I *wouldn't* ever do: kill someone chosen randomly, coldly,
while he begs me to spare him. Including kids, too...Terrorism.
If one is capable of such a thing, he was capable even before he had a
pretest to do it.
Call it a "dormant" capability. Or not too dormant, if it's already accepted now..

I understand your points, Fable. This is why I speak about forgiveness.
But I fully agree with BaronTx.
I'm horrified by this acceptance of innocents' murders

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:41 am

@Littiz, how do you know exactly how you would react, I make the assumption from your reply (and I might be wrong) that you think all the people who take lives are somehow predisposed to it anyway, am I understanding you correctly?

I have no idea how I would react when faced with a life threatening situation, let me use the analogy of a thief, say he pulls a knife and threatens me with it, I have to give him all my hard worked for money, now do I just hand over my crisp notes or do I become a have-a-go hero? I suspect actually the later...

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 5:37 am

I've been watching both sides here for a little while now, and I've been trying to weigh up my stand on the argument, and to be honest, I'm still undecided. I think to better put my thoughts on the issue, I'll write for both sides of the argument. That is:

Chechenyans were right to do the act, they had no other choice.
Chechenyans were wrong, you cannot steal life like that in such a terrorist way.
[/list=1]
Firstly then, I consider that the Chechens were right. What better way to let their cause be known and to garner support than a dramatic act that tells people of their desperation. I suppose we have to imagine things from their standpoint. They need the support of other 'powerful' nations to free themselves from Russia, and though they did end up taking the lifes of hostages, they have shown that they would willingly give up their own lives to free their country from what they would call tyrrany. We have heard about how rape, pillaging attacks and so on have occured in Chechenya, and the question that we have to ask is, should this happen in a modern day and age, by a power that holds quite a military strength and standing?

The obvious answer is no. There really shouldn't be any need for these sort of attacks to occur against anyone, other than an important reason such as the safety of the entire world, examples cited may include nuclear equipped nations, chemical and biological weapons, etc, that the country would actually use. Do the Russians have the right to hold a nation like this, held only through military right? Again, no. However, as Littiz says Chechens have reciprocated barbarity, and this only makes the vicious circle worse.

So then, I can see why the Chechens made this hostage situation, they wanted to make a stand and prove a point about their situation. Were they right to kill people? No, but then, NO ONE should be allowed to kill someone. War is an unnecessary thing in this day and age, (and I've just contradicted myself, I'm pro Iraqi invasion, but thats because I don't like the tyrannical regime, plus the possible threat of biological weapons, it doesn't appeal) as it should be, but it still occurs. The reason why violence and aggression still occurs? There is no more dramatic a way to make a point.

Now to the second half, I have no doubt that the Chechens were wrong in doing this, the death of all these hostages was a horrific thing, and it just shouldn't have happened, but it did. Therefore, lets look at the reaction that Spetsnaz gave, they pumped gas into the building. A short, brutal end to a bloody siege. As mentioned earlier by Frogus, the gas wasn't tested properly and it wasn't the best option, but it ended it.

Now look at the reaction that a lot of people have made. A horrific end! Why kill all those people? I'll make a point about America here, after September 11th, a large portion of the world backed invasion (purely military here) to put an end to the THREAT of violence to the rest of the world. Why should Russia be singled out as a bad example? They put an end to the situation, and so far, have not gone out and demanded that blood vengence be upheld against Chechenya.

I suppose my point of view for the second opinion is that Russia had no other choice to stop it, and the Chechens had no right to make this attack against Russia. At least the Russians have not made any form of return attack yet...

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 6:29 am

Originally posted by Nippy
At least the Russians have not made any form of return attack yet...

When they do...expect it to be a hard lesson for the Chechens.

On another note, someone asked why Russia would not let them go, I have heard oil (A good bet) and from the extreme far left (another site) that Russia believes in the big picture of things, letting it go will eat the under belly out of Russia....letting the US gain more of a foot hold (plus closer bases) in central Asia (I believe Central).

If this second possibilty is the one the Russian Government is backing, I would not expect any leyway from Russia on this problem. The cold war might be over in the press, but I have serious doubts Russia plans to fade to the background.