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Post by aVENGER2k »

Originally posted by Astafas:
<STRONG>A few questions: Will Sarevok join you freely? Do you have to give something up of yourself? Will it be possible to get him from the beginning if you start a whole new game?</STRONG>
Hm,not quite sure about giving up a part of yourself,but here's an interesting extract from [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/previews/throneofbhaal1.php"]Buck's ToB Preview[/url]


...you will also encounter your archenemy from the original Baldur’s Gate, Sarevok, early on in the expansion. Should you choose to utilize your powers,you can resurrect Sarevok and even have the option of adding him to your party. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking - why would you want someone who caused you so much anguish in the past to be part of your group? Well, keep in mind that Sarevok is highly knowledgeable about Bhaal and his children, which may come in handy during the course of the game. And if that isn’t enough to want him tagging along, once you see just how powerful he is, you’ll think twice about leaving him...

[ 05-20-2001: Message edited by: aVENGER2k ]
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Post by Nightfire »

I don't know about that, since Sarevok knows more about Bhaalspawn then anybody. That's probably the incentive to recruit him, for his vast knowledge on what you're capable of.
As I said in another thread, I think by the end of SoA at least, your own knowledge would be more extensive than the game seems to give you credit for, especially if you're playing a mage or any other smart, scholarly character.

Also, I think you have every reason to be at least somewhat dubious about anything he tells you, unless bringing him back to life with your own power binds him to you in some way, like a geas. He is, after all, an arrogant, power-hungry, backstabbing Chaotic Evil bastard whom I wouldn't trust as far as a one-armed halfling child could throw him.
And to me his glowing eyes signify that he's always been tapping into his Bhaal abilities ...
True, Tamoko mentions that in BG1 when she pleads with the PC to try and talk Sarevok out of his mad plans.

Speaking of the eyes, I wonder if he could "turn them off" -- going about his daily business of the normal, faithful son of Reiltar and a would-be Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate would have been kinda difficult with two baleful miniature flashlights in his face.
... but is more subtle and controlled ...
Hmm. My impression of Sarevok is the complete opposite: that of a ball of pent-up dark emotions which he can barely control, and only with reluctance. Sure, he was a schemer when he had to be, but even then, he seemed quick to lose his temper. I find it very fitting that he embodied Wrath in the Nine Hells -- raving, unbridled emotion.
... then the PC who turns into the mighty but reckless Slayer.
But only after having her soul, and thus most of her strength of will and other important bits, ripped out by a vengeance-crazed ex-elf. :)
Seeing that even Imoen managed to get her soul back (with you help) and that you yourself became even more powerful after the loss of your soul (Slayer change) I would not want to be Irenicus should he had attempted to get Sarevok instead ...
Fighters fare rather badly against high-level mages, though. I know Sarevok butchered Gorion, but for all that the games call our dear foster father a "powerful mage", the actual battle between the two had to make him look pretty pathetic, else there likely wouldn't even have been a BG1. ;)

Back on topic: maybe you misunderstood me, my original musing was not so much about personal power, but rather self-control and strength of will. If a Bhaalspawn lacks that, and the sense to know that the divine fire in her veins is dangerous not only to others but also to herself, I think she'll lose herself to it, lose her will to the Father's, and become nothing more than a "weapon of Murder" as Sarevok calls it. An appropriate term, if you ask me, since a weapon has no will of its own, no control over who swings it, and at which target.

Sarevok may have been close to that state when you first killed him, at least that's what Tamoko thought.

Sticking to the fire analogy, Sarevok is a pyromaniac who doesn't care about the danger he's putting himself in when he fans the flames higher and higher, while the PC is someone who keeps a careful eye on the fire and finds other, less destructive uses for it.
(and that's assuming he could even get his hands on him, seeing that Sarevok would probably be much more difficult to kidnap then the PC, giving his paranoia and background).
He has one big weakness: arrogance. The possibility of failure or of being wrong never seems to enter his mind, and he does not really take opposition seriously. Same with Irenicus, though the two are otherwise totally different, IMO, excepting their hunger of power. Well, those are Required Villain Attributes, I suppose. ;)
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"Mmm? What's this? You gots hammer? Bhaal once drop hammer on big godly toe. Jump around and swear for days, he did. Kicked poor me all the way to Baator. Very bad week, that."
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Post by Kayless »

Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>As I said in another thread, I think by the end of SoA at least, your own knowledge would be more extensive than the game seems to give you credit for, especially if you're playing a mage or any other smart, scholarly character.</STRONG>
That’s true, but remember that Sarevok spent a while at Candlekeep studying the teaching of Alaundo, as well as having a priest of Bhaal as his mentor. So I still think he’d know more then the PC. Besides, I don’t think it’s as much as what you know, but rather what you feel. Sarevok is much closer to the nature of Bhaal then the PC so he has unique insights. That’s one of the reason why I always thought Irenicus was messing around with powers he couldn’t comprehend. Being a Bhaalspawn isn’t something you can quantify or learn, its something that you are. This is what Sarevok took to heart.
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>Also, I think you have every reason to be at least somewhat dubious about anything he tells you, unless bringing him back to life with your own power binds him to you in some way, like a geas. He is, after all, an arrogant, power-hungry, backstabbing Chaotic Evil bastard whom I wouldn't trust as far as a one-armed halfling child could throw him.</STRONG>
You definitely have to watch your back with Sarevok along for the ride, but I think that giving him a piece of your soul may bind you the way it bound the PC and Irenicus. When Irenicus died he was able to drag the PC down to hell with him, but not vice versa. I think the same will apply with Sarevok. He can’t kill you without you taking him with you but you can off him. It would give him good reason to stay in line, though it likely won’t stop him from plotting.
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>Speaking of the eyes, I wonder if he could "turn them off" -- going about his daily business of the normal, faithful son of Reiltar and a would-be Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate would have been kinda difficult with two baleful miniature flashlights in his face.</STRONG>
I think he was probably able to tone down the glowiness and pass for a ‘normal’ person. That way he could go about his daily affairs without being conspicuous. But maybe he just walked around like that and no one noticed or cared. At his ducal coronation he was decked out in full armor and nobody even battered an eye. Even if the armor didn’t display the icon of Bhaal on its chest plate it's still damn sinister. Maybe they all thought he was just an eccentric Wild Mage :p (inside joke, since a lot of people on the Black Isles board thought Sarevok’s new portrait was a Wild Mage).
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>Hmm. My impression of Sarevok is the complete opposite: that of a ball of pent-up dark emotions which he can barely control, and only with reluctance. Sure, he was a schemer when he had to be, but even then, he seemed quick to lose his temper. I find it very fitting that he embodied Wrath in the Nine Hells -- raving, unbridled emotion.</STRONG>
I meant more subtle and controlled with the application of his power not his general personality. But you’re absolutely right in your psychological assessment of him. To me Sarevok is a person capable of great strategic maneuvering and cool calculation, provided he has sufficient emotional distance from his foes. His knowledge of psychological warfare is evident in his actions, such as having the miners believe the Nashkel mine had demons, playing on peoples fear of an invasion by Amn, and messing with the protagonist’s head with doppelgangers beneath Candlekeep. All this shows a keen understanding of the human condition (even his armor is designed to inspire fear). Unfortunately his temper often blinds him, hence his high INT and low/average WIS.
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>He has one big weakness: arrogance. The possibility of failure or of being wrong never seems to enter his mind, and he does not really take opposition seriously. Same with Irenicus, though the two are otherwise totally different, IMO, excepting their hunger of power. Well, those are Required Villain Attributes, I suppose. ;) </STRONG>
Much of Sarevok’s neurosis springs from his relationship with his father (God, do I sound like a shrink or what). Rieltar Anchev was brutal member of the Ironthrone who killed his own wife because of her infidelity with Bhaal. He strikes me as being an abusive man who likely didn’t think much of his stepson. So when Sarevok finds out that he’s really the son of a god it’s exactly the reassurance his beaten ego needs. It allows him to reassert his self-esteem and gives him focus. He can’t stop to think that Bhaal just wanted him as cannon fodder rather then an heir, since that would take away a vital safety mechanism he’s developed. Notice in his dialogue, he refers to Bhaal with a great deal of respect.

I sometimes wonder what kind of man Sarevok would have become if he had been taken away to live with Gorion. Tamoko says she can still see vestiges of a good man in him, which to me indicates that Sarevok might have been an honest-to-god hero had his life turned out just a little differently. He’s really a tragic figure when you think about it, delusional and (unwittingly) suicidal.

I would like to talk more but this is pretty long winded as it is so I'll save it for another post.

[ 05-21-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
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Post by Nippy »

Can i say wow!!

I agree with the hero bit. I would like to ask one thing however, if you are a lawful good character then maybe the sacrifice of your soul to him should change his alignment?
Any thoughts?
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Post by Boris Jeltsin »

i can sense something "yoshimo-ish" over sarevok, i bet he will turn on you when you have killed bhaal or something
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Post by Vehemence »

All I'm going to say is Kayless and NightFire, you two have an aweful lot of time on your hands :D :D :D ;)

Your both damn good at arguing your points though, I'll give you that! :)
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Post by Nightfire »

That’s true, but remember that Sarevok spent a while at Candlekeep studying the teaching of Alaundo, as well as having a priest of Bhaal as his mentor.
Hmm. The PC grew up there, but I suspect that Gorion and whoever else of her teachers was in the know (Tethtoril? Karan? Parda?) subtly steered her away from the revelant prophecies, or at least from doing the kind of in-depth study that Sarevok did.

Still, I'm stubborn and insist that the PC had the time and opportunity to learn quite a bit about her heritage once she knew about it, from Sarevok's own writings for one. :)
Besides, I don’t think it’s as much as what you know, but rather what you feel. Sarevok is much closer to the nature of Bhaal then the PC so he has unique insights.
Up to the point until the PC has her soul ripped out and starts turning into the Slayer ... which is about as close as you can get while remaining yourself. But I see your point.

And with Good characters, at least, I suppose their first concern would not be, "What powers does this heritage give me?" but rather, "What dangers should I guard myself against?". Sarevok would know more about the former, the PC about the latter. How's that for a middle ground? ;)
That’s one of the reason why I always thought Irenicus was messing around with powers he couldn’t comprehend. Being a Bhaalspawn isn’t something you can quantify or learn, its something that you are.
Total agreement here! His pre-final-battle comment "Your soul was never truly yours, Bhaalchild! You should let me put it to better use!" was pretty much the height of delusioned arrogance.

I like to think that his own Slayer change in Hell did not happen voluntarily. If I was to write that scene up, at least, it would not be.
At his ducal coronation he was decked out in full armor and nobody even battered an eye.
LOL! I remember thinking that this was more than odd, yes.
Maybe they all thought he was just an eccentric Wild Mage (inside joke, since a lot of people on the Black Isles board thought Sarevok’s new portrait was a Wild Mage).
I thought it was common knowledge that everyone is a wild mage in the expansion! ;)
I meant more subtle and controlled with the application of his power not his general personality.

Ahh, okay.
... such as having the miners believe the Nashkel mine had demons, ...
Didn't they think it was a dragon? Or both? Bah, kobolds are certainly demonic enough in my book. If I didn't hate them by the time I got to the Firewine Ruins, I certainly did after spending three minutes in that dungeon, not to mention crossing it twice!

<snip some more stuff we agree on>
Unfortunately his temper often blinds him, hence his high INT and low/average WIS.
Yep, that was my original evaluation, too, although I would not originally have put his INT quite as high as the revised stats do.
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"Mmm? What's this? You gots hammer? Bhaal once drop hammer on big godly toe. Jump around and swear for days, he did. Kicked poor me all the way to Baator. Very bad week, that."
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Post by Nightfire »

Much of Sarevok’s neurosis springs from his relationship with his father (God, do I sound like a shrink or what).
Aye ... both fathers. Beign raised by a bastard like Reiltar opened the doors wide for Bhaal.
Rieltar Anchev was brutal member of the Ironthrone who killed his own wife because of her infidelity with Bhaal.
I originally thought maybe she'd taken a lover to break out of what must have been quite a miserable life, but if you're right, it makes Reiltar an even sicker bastard. It's not as if the poor woman had any choice in the matter. :(
He can’t stop to think that Bhaal just wanted him as cannon fodder rather then an heir, since that would take away a vital safety mechanism he’s developed.
A good explanation for his stubborn refusal to see the truth even if it's spelled out plain as day.
I sometimes wonder what kind of man Sarevok would have become if he had been taken away to live with Gorion. Tamoko says she can still see vestiges of a good man in him, which to me indicates that Sarevok might have been an honest-to-god hero had his life turned out just a little differently.
Oh, definitely. The upbringing made a world of a difference, I think, although in the end Sarevok deliberately chose the path of evil. Tamoko also uses this argument to try and convince you to spare Sarevok's life, and it made quite an impression on me and my character.

This is one reason why I hope ToB will explore the PC's upbringing and relationship with Gorion a little more (another reason being that I grew very fond of the old man even in the brief Prologue).
He’s really a tragic figure when you think about it, delusional and (unwittingly) suicidal.
I wonder if it'd be possible to find some spark of humanity in him ... it would be nice, though probably beyond the scope of the expansion if done well. That is my opinion, anyway; my character harbors one murderous grudge against her brother and would need a hell of a reason to bring him back.
I would like to talk more but this is pretty long winded as it is so I'll save it for another post.
I'm all for it! Talking about the roleplaying aspects of the series is a lot of fun IMO. Maybe we should start a new thread?


@Vehemence: Thanks, BTW. ;)
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"Mmm? What's this? You gots hammer? Bhaal once drop hammer on big godly toe. Jump around and swear for days, he did. Kicked poor me all the way to Baator. Very bad week, that."
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Post by Kayless »

Originally posted by Nippy:
<STRONG>I would like to ask one thing however, if you are a lawful good character then maybe the sacrifice of your soul to him should change his alignment?
Any thoughts?</STRONG>
A plausible idea, but from what I understand his alignment will remain Chaotic Evil. Remember that your soul didn’t make Irenicus any nobler either.
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>Hmm. The PC grew up there, but I suspect that Gorion and whoever else of her teachers was in the know (Tethtoril? Karan? Parda?) subtly steered her away from the revelant prophecies, or at least from doing the kind of in-depth study that Sarevok did.

Still, I'm stubborn and insist that the PC had the time and opportunity to learn quite a bit about her heritage once she knew about it, from Sarevok's own writings for one</STRONG>
I definitely concur that Gorion and the others made sure the PC didn’t read any ‘controversial’ books that might lead to some unsettling revelations. But Sarevok also spent almost a year in hell surrounded by his father’s demons. So he likely learned a few more things about Bhaal. I think he probably has about the same level of knowledge as Gorion’s Ward, but a different slant on the whole thing. I can just imagine the PC and Sarevok debating over the nature of Bhaal and their destinies. That type of dialogue alone would make ToB awesome (not that it won’t have a million other reasons to be so).
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>I know Sarevok butchered Gorion, but for all that the games call our dear foster father a "powerful mage", the actual battle between the two had to make him look pretty pathetic, else there likely wouldn't even have been a BG1</STRONG>
I thought Gorion did ok for being outnumbered 4 to 1 (especially when first playing the game and having no knowledge of higher level spells). He is actually only a 9th level mage (I got his stats using the Infinity Explorer) so I think he might have grown lax living in Candlekeep or perhaps had some kind of condition (maybe he was level drained).

Gorion
Lawful Good, Mage level 9, HP 50
Strength 11
Dexterity 15
Constitution 12
Intelligence 18
Wisdom 16
Charisma 14
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>I hope ToB will explore the PC's upbringing and relationship with Gorion a little more (another reason being that I grew very fond of the old man even in the brief Prologue).</STRONG>
I’d also like some more background on Gorion, from his days a Harper, to his friendship with Elminster and Khelben Blackstaff, meeting Khalid and Jaheira, and his confrontation with Firkraag. The old man had quite an interesting life.
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>Didn't they think it was a dragon? Or both? Bah, kobolds are certainly demonic enough in my book. If I didn't hate them by the time I got to the Firewine Ruins, I certainly did after spending three minutes in that dungeon, not to mention crossing it twice!</STRONG>
I remember being baffled how anyone could mistake Kobolds for demons, dragons, etc. Even in BG1 they were kind of lame. And the constant Yip Yip pretty much gives it away. “ARGH! A YIPPING DEMON RUN!” :rolleyes:

And more about Sarevok’s coronation: I always thought it hysterical when Belt demands proof that Sarevok is evil. Um, hello? The armor? The Darth Vader voice? He might as well have had a pitchfork and a pointy tail.
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>I like to think that his own Slayer change in Hell did not happen voluntarily. If I was to write that scene up, at least, it would not be.</STRONG>
Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :D
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>I wonder if it'd be possible to find some spark of humanity in him ... it would be nice, though probably beyond the scope of the expansion if done well. That is my opinion, anyway; my character harbors one murderous grudge against her brother and would need a hell of a reason to bring him back.</STRONG>
It would be great if we could somehow let Sarevok ‘see the light’ but something tells me it’s not going to happen. But I could be wrong. The romances in BG2 were surprisingly well written and emotionally involving so it’s possible to have Sarevok change his ways depending on how you treat him.
Originally posted by Nightfire:
<STRONG>Talking about the roleplaying aspects of the series is a lot of fun IMO. Maybe we should start a new thread?</STRONG>
How about, Emotional Psychosis and their Ramifications on Baldur’s Gate Characters. :) I have some more thoughts on Sarevok and some on Irenicus as well. ;)
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Post by Vehemence »

Ok, this stuff is just too good not to comment on!
Originally posted by Kayless:
<STRONG>I remember being baffled how anyone could mistake Kobolds for demons, dragons, etc. Even in BG1 they were kind of lame. And the constant Yip Yip pretty much gives it away. “ARGH! A YIPPING DEMON RUN!”</STRONG>
Yes, well, fear and lack of knowledge has a way of making you exaggerate things ;)
Originally posted by Kayless:
<STRONG>And more about Sarevok’s coronation: I always thought it hysterical when Belt demands proof that Sarevok is evil. Um, hello? The armor? The Darth Vader voice? He might as well have had a pitchfork and a pointy tail.</STRONG>
ROFLMAO! :D :D :D I couldn't agree more with you here.
Originally posted by Kayless:
<STRONG>It would be great if we could somehow let Sarevok ‘see the light’ but something tells me it’s not going to happen. But I could be wrong. The romances in BG2 were surprisingly well written and emotionally involving so it’s possible to have Sarevok change his ways depending on how you treat him.</STRONG>
Have to disaggree here. Making Sarevok 'see the light' wouldn't be something that would fit in with his character. His arrogance would never allow him to believe that. Like you said earlier, even in hell after being killed by the PC already, he was still defiant and claiming to be the rightful lord of murder. Hell, you don't go through all that to one day suddenly say, "Hmm, you know, I think I've been rather rash in my decisions, perhaps I should really forget this whole lord of murder thing and be a good chap and fly straight" :D

It works with Viconia due to the romance, and well, romance has a funny way of making you look at things differently, but Sarevok has been abused for a great portion of his life and it would be unlikely that he would willingly accept anything other than his 'right to the throne'. Besides, he's kinda cool being the arrogant bastard that he is :D :)
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Post by fable »

Sarevok isn't exactly going to fit well into a good/neutral party--in fact, you'll find that somebody you don't expect from your past, who's reasonably good, takes an extreme exception to Sarevok if you add the latter to your party in ToB. And I mean extreme. I've seen the sequence when I was at E3, and it was pretty damn good theatre. :)

At least Sarevok doesn't kill Jan. Not that he doesn't have provcation; Jan continually refers to him as "Binky."
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Post by Vehemence »

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Sarevok isn't exactly going to fit well into a good/neutral party--in fact, you'll find that somebody you don't expect from your past, who's reasonably good, takes an extreme exception to Sarevok if you add the latter to your party in ToB. And I mean extreme. I've seen the sequence when I was at E3, and it was pretty damn good theatre. :)

At least Sarevok doesn't kill Jan. Not that he doesn't have provcation; Jan continually refers to him as "Binky."</STRONG>
Why do I get the feeling it's a harper thing. So it's either Jaheira or Elminster. But since Elminster is not known to get highly agitated, whereas Jaheira is, I'm more inclined to say it's good ol Jaheira the Friendly Harper :D

Either that or kid sis Imoen... Hmmm... :)
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Post by Kayless »

Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>Making Sarevok 'see the light' wouldn't be something that would fit in with his character. His arrogance would never allow him to believe that. Like you said earlier, even in hell after being killed by the PC already, he was still defiant and claiming to be the rightful lord of murder. Hell, you don't go through all that to one day suddenly say, "Hmm, you know, I think I've been rather rash in my decisions, perhaps I should really forget this whole lord of murder thing and be a good chap and fly straight" :D

It works with Viconia due to the romance, and well, romance has a funny way of making you look at things differently, but Sarevok has been abused for a great portion of his life and it would be unlikely that he would willingly accept anything other than his 'right to the throne'. Besides, he's kinda cool being the arrogant bastard that he is :D :) </STRONG>
Sarevok’s main problem is that he’s had no healthy relationships or support system in his life. Unlike the PC, Sarevok doesn’t really have any friends or family to help him work through his Bhaal issues without smashing something. Tazok, Angelo, and his other lackeys were just ‘coworkers’ who didn’t really care about one another. His first lover, I forget her name, seemed selfish and more concerned with the power he could give her (and maybe his skill in the sack). By the time he had encountered Tamoko he had already established a pattern of keeping his distance emotionally. The fact that she actually loved him must have been a tremendous and unwanted thing for him. Deep down Sarevok pushed her away because (like many abused people) he didn't feel he was deserving of love. After years of being put down he started to internalize that abuse. Rieltar is far more responsible for Sarevok’s neurosis then Bhaal is.

Tragically, like many abused people, Sarevok obviously started to repeat the cycle of behavior. Rieltar Anchev seemed to have a habit of harming those who cared about him. He murdered his own wife and likely kicked around his stepson. Is it any wonder Sarevok is so quick to anger? The dreams of the PC in BG1 were nightmares. To Sarevok they must have been comforting assurances of his self worth. An absent father is one that can be made into someone that respects and loves you. I don’t believe for a moment that Sarevok would ever consciously acknowledge this fact but that’s at the heart of his issues. His stepfather didn’t give a rat’s ass about him, but his ‘real’ father wants him to take over his throne. What higher form of respect is there for one’s progeny? This delusion is what has sustained him for some time now and he’s not likely to discard it.

It is possible for Sarevok to be redeemed (assuming he was a real person instead of a character in a video game), but unfortunately he’s sabotaged himself. By pushing away anyone who gets too close he effectively negates any chance he has at redemption. Viconia, like you say, has this same intimacy problem but with the help of the PC she's able to overcome it. I wonder if Tamoko had gone about things differently if Sarevok would have been able to make a similar conversion.

Such introspection and complexity are not well suited for a solitary NPC in the scope of a much larger world, but as the protagonist in a game like Planescape Torment Sarevok might well be able to achieve some form of psychic betterment. I’m not saying we should forgive Sarevok his trespasses, just understand why he’s the way he is (again assuming he were a real person). I think he makes a great villain, and a very complex one at that. He'll make an even more complex 'ally'. On one level I like him just the way he is. But part of me would like to think he’s capable of finding some absolution in his life. Of course he’s so fascinating that absolution almost seems like a waste.

@Vehemence and Nightfire: Looking forward to your responses. :)

[ 05-23-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
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Post by Kayless »

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Sarevok isn't exactly going to fit well into a good/neutral party</STRONG>
Regardless of my PC's noblity of spirit (I'm going to take my good charater through ToB first) Sarevok is coming along for the ride. He can bitch and moan all he likes. ;)
Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>--in fact, you'll find that somebody you don't expect from your past, who's reasonably good, takes an extreme exception to Sarevok if you add the latter to your party in ToB. And I mean extreme. I've seen the sequence when I was at E3, and it was pretty damn good theatre. :) </STRONG>
Hmmm, who could this be? Is it an NPC or someone you encounter? All of Vehemence's suggestions are plausible. So is Minsc. I'm drooling already. :)
Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>At least Sarevok doesn't kill Jan. Not that he doesn't have provcation; Jan continually refers to him as "Binky." </STRONG>
I'd kill the little turd if he called me Blinky. I'm surprised Sarevok lets him walk. He's killed for far less.

P.S. fable, how do the evil NPCs treat Sarevok? Korgan and Edwin got along quite well with each other, as did Viconia and Edwin (though Korgan was always contemptuous of Viconia). Do they welcome Sarevok or get intimidated by him?

[ 05-23-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
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Post by Vehemence »

Kayless, some exceptionally good points there. Especially:
The dreams of the PC in BG1 were nightmares. To Sarevok they must have been comforting assurances of his self worth
Something I never even thought about. I never assumed he had them. One point though is that the PC's nightmares were based on his/her experiences, ie Killing Mulahey and the bone dagger that flies out and fills a bone shaped hole in you never knew you had.

As with any typical dream/nightmare, they are somewhat representative of the subconscious mind. Without any definitive stance on what Sarevok dreamed about, it is uncertain as to whether his subconscious was spitting out similar experiences. Ok, to make this simpler, if Sarevok dreamt about the destruction of the Iron throne and the downfall of his step father, it could, as you say, be perceived as being pleasant and comforting. But tormenting him perhaps could be visions of Reiltar killing his mother. I would like to believe that even to Sarevok, that this kind of imagery would not be perceived as comforting. But without any evidence of what Sarevok did dream about, it's hard to say.

But I've scooted far around your point, which ultimately is if Sarevok had bhaal dreams, yes, it is likely he would perceive them as comforting. He often talked of embracing his destiny and relished the torment and murder that accompanied it. Which is kind of interesting to wonder what a character like Sarevok would truly fear or find disconcerting. The aforementioned Reiltar killing his mother, perhaps, but when you look at it, that's still murder and torment. It's really kind of a double edged blade. Which to me, make him such a cool character.

Another great point you made was:
Sarevok’s main problem is that he’s had no healthy relationships or support system in his life
I couldn't agree more here. On first glance, I would say that Isolation could be a factor here, but I quickly dismissed this due to the fact that Isolation does not breed hatred. One could argue that due to his bhaal soul his future is predetermined and would always have an evil streak throughout. But the PC kinda throws this off somewhat. With acception of course to the Slayer. The Slayer only occured when you lose your soul. Which to me, suggests that Sarevok does indeed have a soul. I mean, something had to make the pretty light show when he floated down to hell at the end of BG1 ;)

So, because he has a soul, does that beg the question of salvation? Is it possible that there is some little bit of a soul that can see past the arrogance, the self obsession and torment induced 'hissy fits'? Certainly it is possible, and perhaps the greatest evidence is as you suggest, Tamoko. Love is supposedly the most powerful force, but Sarevoks closed off and unreceptive nature prohibits any kind of influence from that department. Even when confronted with the fact that his beliefs and dreams are not sufficient, his arrogance is amplified and could even be perceived as being a protective blanket.

It is not uncommon for people to radically change their way of life when confronted by such inadequacy of their current situation. Sarevok ignores this completely and is actually spurred on. Perhaps though, his conversation with you in Hell (BG2) suggests that he see's within the PC another way of obtaining his goal. Or perhaps a redirection or outward projection of his goal onto the PC. Realising that within the PC lies the secret to fulfillment. Whether that be becoming like his father (bhaal) or death. The latter does not seem to be of consequence.

I would like to go on with consequences and his beliefs, but I feel I've said a lot already :)

Anyway, I'll be interested to see what you have to say :)
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Post by Vehemence »

Originally posted by Kayless:
<STRONG>Hmmm, who could this be? Is it an NPC or someone you encounter? All of Vehemence's suggestions are plausible. So is Minsc. I'm drooling already.</STRONG>
Minsc? Ok I can understand Minsc with Irenicus due to Irenicus killing his beloved Dynaheir, but I can't remember any direct influence of Sarevok on Minsc. But, he is evil, and Minsc is Minsc, so you could be right ;) :D
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Post by Kayless »

Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>One could argue that due to his bhaal soul his future is predetermined and would always have an evil streak throughout. But the PC kinda throws this off somewhat.</STRONG>


Don't forget about sweet little Imoen. :)
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>Even when confronted with the fact that his beliefs and dreams are not sufficient, his arrogance is amplified and could even be perceived as being a protective blanket.</STRONG>
Oh definitely. Sarevok is like a shark; he has to keep moving forward in order to survive. Actually stopping to think about the truth of things is just too painful, so he builds a wall of arrogance to shield himself from it.
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>Perhaps though, his conversation with you in Hell (BG2) suggests that he see's within the PC another way of obtaining his goal. Or perhaps a redirection or outward projection of his goal onto the PC.</STRONG>
Sarevok’s worst fear would likely be similar to what the PC experienced. Being stripped of his divine soul, or as Irenicus put it “the very thing that made you special”. Being defeated and not achieving his goal of succeeding Bhaal as the new Lord of Murder must have been hell for him as well (the fact that he was already in hell not withstanding). Just before he attacks you in BG2 he yells ‘It should have been me! It should have been me!’ This is not so much a battle cry you yell at your enemy then the cry of a hurt person who’s had his dreams crushed. But his relationship with the PC need not be completely contemptuous. When you are sufficiently aggressive in BG1 he commends you and if you give into your rage when talking to him in BG2 he says, “Yes! You are worthy!” I think if he can’t become the new Lord of Murder he’d at least want to live vicariously through you.
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>if Sarevok dreamt about the destruction of the Iron throne and the downfall of his step father, it could, as you say, be perceived as being pleasant and comforting. But tormenting him perhaps could be visions of Reiltar killing his mother. I would like to believe that even to Sarevok, that this kind of imagery would not be perceived as comforting. But without any evidence of what Sarevok did dream about, it's hard to say.</STRONG>
I think Sarevok’s dreams, as torturous as they might have been, only served to strengthen him. Bhaal likely focused on weeding out the traits he found distasteful (like Sarevok’s compassion for his mother) while bolstering his more murderous impulses. Your final dream in BG1 says something along the lines of “you have remade yourself in your own image”. The reverse is likely true with Sarevok, as Bhaal attempted to make him has much like himself as possible.
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>I can't remember any direct influence of Sarevok on Minsc. But, he is evil, and Minsc is Minsc, so you could be right ;) :D </STRONG>
They have no specific reason to hate each other, I just think there'd be a major personality clash.

"Boo is outraged by your evilness! See his rage? He is tiny so look close. We must strive to be heroic and nice to all little creatures!"

"For the last time, SHUT YOUR MOUTH! I need not listen to the ramblings of a lunatic carrying a bilge rat!"


:D :D :D

[ 05-23-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
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Post by aVENGER2k »

Hey I really like the direction where this topic's heading!Great posts people,especially from Kayless,Nightfire & Vehemence,they give a lot of insight in the BG series plot.Well,since everyone's at it,here's my little contribution to the Bhall Saga mystery...

This was taken from a letter found CandleKeep in BG1.I think it's possibly a part of the Prophecy of Alaundo:


"During the days of the Avatars, the Lord of Murder will spawn a score of mortal progeny. These offspring will be aligned good and evil, but chaos will flow through them all. When the Beast's bastard children come of age, they will bring havoc to the lands of the Sword Coast. One of these children must rise above the rest and claim their father's legacy.This inheritor will shape the history of the Sword Coast for centuries to come......"

So,what do you people think?Is it gonna be the PC or someone else?Personally,I think after all (s)he's been through,in the end the PC (being lvl 40 and all) is gonna ascend to Godhood,being either Good or Evil depending on the choices he makes,and that's really gonna piss Sarevok off :p
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Post by fable »

Kayless writes:
how do the evil NPCs treat Sarevok? Korgan and Edwin got along quite well with each other, as did Viconia and Edwin (though Korgan was always contemptuous of Viconia). Do they welcome Sarevok or get intimidated by him?
I can't say that I've seen the wide range of dialog between Saverok and other party members, since most of the inter-party dialog arises randomly throughout the game. But what I did see indicates a degree of considerable uneasiness even with other ostensibly "evil" characters. That could hardly be otherwise. Good or neutral characters for the most part display a potential for social bonding, but as you've pointed out so well, this is largely missing from the evil party NPCs who have severe childhood traumas to work through. At best, as in the relationship of Korgan and Edwin, there's a grudging, suspicious kind of respect, the sort one might find between two mercenaries who know they're comrades today, but could be enemies tomorrow.

As for Jan, he has a problem with pompous authority figures. Keldorn really irks the gnome, and there's something about Saverok's stature, skills, and character that he just can't resist deflating. Jan is a master at character analysis: he's obviously taken a great deal of time to size up people in his life, and knows just how far to go when pushing. Which makes his conversations with Saverok hilarious. :)
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Post by Nightfire »

@Kayless ...
I think he probably has about the same level of knowledge as Gorion's Ward, but a different slant on the whole thing.
Yep, that's more or less what I think.
I can just imagine the PC and Sarevok debating over the nature of Bhaal and their destinies. That type of dialogue alone would make ToB awesome (not that it won't have a million other reasons to be so).
Ooh. That could be awesome indeed if they manage to give the PC some good dialog options, preferably depending on her mental stats.

RE: Gorion's stats

LG? Hmm, I'd have pegged him down as NG for some reason, and with a level in the low teens. Pre-teen characters do not belong in a fight with a mature red dragon, especially not if the dragon actually uses his abilities properly.

Still ... 9th level is just enough to cast Teleport, and he'd be powerful enough to take the PC along (you can teleport yourself plus 50 lbs per level, IIRC). I wonder why he didn't simply hop to the Friendly Arm in this manner, or maybe to a Harper safe haven. Running off with his ward, alone and on foot, knowing that the enemy is on the move, was just crazy. Gorion didn't come across as one who'd lose his head.
I'd also like some more background on Gorion, from his days a Harper, to his friendship with Elminster and Khelben Blackstaff, meeting Khalid and Jaheira, and his confrontation with Firkraag. The old man had quite an interesting life.
Oh yes. I'm a little upset that the game assumes he's been so secretive with his adopted child, although they were very close. Why?
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Heh. ;) Believe me, if I had one wish, I'd spend it on creative writing skills.

I just don't like the idea of Irenicus being able to lap up a Bhaalspawn soul as if it was nothing more than a particularly tasty sweet. In the end, he should come face to face with all the baggage attached to that kind of power. Having had his plans ruined and his life ended by the PC, been dragged down to Hell with the PC still hot on his heels ... that's bound to shake even him, and for all his posturing, I think you can hear it in his voice, too. As Sarevok says, he knows that the soul he holds is not his. He knows he cannot shake you off. I can easily imagine that the combination of anger, fear, denial and his own irreplacable arrogance left him wide open and allowed Bhaal to push him over the edge.

Hell, daddy was probably vastly amused by Irenicus' whole ploy from the beginning.
How about, Emotional Psychosis and their Ramifications on Baldur's Gate Characters. :) I have some more thoughts on Sarevok and some on Irenicus as well. ;)
<rubs hands>

Let's have at it!
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