PS:T goes out of print

[Aubrey]

Hi there!

I've just found out that PS:T goes out of print. I had suspected that because it was very hard for me to find the copy I finally ordered; but this morning Black Isle sent me the confirmation:

I'm sorry, but Torment is gone forever. We are no longer allowed to sell or advertise for it. Thanks for the email.

I thought to post it here, letting anyone know. If anyone is thinking of buying it, it might be a good idea to hasten up.


Cheers

[fable]

I'm sorry, but Torment is gone forever. We are no longer allowed to sell or advertise for it. Thanks for the email.

No offense, but that note sounds odd--in fact, the way it's worded is just plain silly. Instead of sounding official, it comes across like something casual, dashed off by a grunt in ten seconds.

First off, nobody can say that has a game has gone out of print "forever." Older games are frequently sold to cheaply run outfits which mass market them at a discount.

Second, whatever the source of this note (you didn't say--was it Black Isle Studios?), the fact that they aren't selling it doesn't mean it's unavailable elsewhere. When a game goes out of print there are people who sell used copies (eBay, Amazon, etc) and legally equivocal websites that specialize in providing "dead" software.

So don't get out of sorts from this strange note you got. BIS hasn't been doing much with the title for a while. That's nothing new. If you're concerned PS:T is going to vanish, IMO, don't be.

[Aubrey]

My only mistake was that: the e-mail I received wasn't from Black Isle, but from Order Desk of Interplay.com (I know, it's not good when one mistakes two different companies. I'm really sorry! )

On the other hand, yes, it sounded a bit weird to me that they wrote so, and the mail didn't bear any signature at all, like Interplay stuff, or Customer Desk, etc. But I somehow connected it to the fact that one can't reach the PS:T official site anymore; that is, http://www.planescape-torment.com. When you click on it you are directly forwarded to Black Isle web page. From there, when you scroll down to the Oldies but Goodies section, and you click on Torment icon, nothing happens.

As a matter of fact I'm going to receive my own copy in a few days, and I'm really thrilled! It's true, I haven't played the game; and yet, after all these nice and excited comments I have read at gamebanshee forums, I felt so sad when I received the above mentioned e-mail...

Anyway. I believe it won't take long before you see me posting my questions.


Cheers

[fable]

Originally posted by Aubrey
As a matter of fact I'm going to receive my own copy in a few days, and I'm really thrilled! It's true, I haven't played the game; and yet, after all these nice and excited comments I have read at gamebanshee forums, I felt so sad when I received the above mentioned e-mail...

All of us who thought the game was great are a bit saddened, not so much by BIS dropping rights on the product as Interplay's unwillingness to do a followup (or the cancellation of TORN with the PS:T teamfor that matter). But I think you're in for a really great experience.

[Koveras]

Ugh, I really want this game, however I am not be able to get it until December. Is there hope for me, or do I have to really run to the store witin the next week?

[Aubrey]

I really don't know what to suggest. Why don't you make a search about game's availability in your local stores? You'll get a rough idea whether you can wait till Christmas or not.

Also: fable has mentioned that there are second-hand copies in various sites on the net. I, for one, have noticed such copies in Amazon. So, it's up to you.


Cheers

[Koveras]

All right! I've got the game. Decided not to chance it, found it in CompUSA. The thing was that it wasn't on the normal game shelves, it was in a rack with other $10 games. Well, it is really a awesome game, I've just escaped the mortuary. The game is harder than BG but I guess that's what makes it fun.

[VonDondu]

I realize that I'm going a little off-topic, but since this forum has very little activity, I hope no one minds if I contribute to it.

Koveras, I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you say that Torment is harder than BG, but I think I disagree. I assume that you mean it's hard to find things and it's tough to keep from getting killed. But the game leaves clues all over the place to nudge you in the right direction, and aside from street thugs, nobody's trying to kill you while you go about your business. And even if your characters do get killed, it's no big deal. IMO, that makes it easier than BG.

If you're like I was when I started playing Torment, you're probably used to thinking that all the characters you meet will try to kill you and you're used to solving problems by killing things. You might also feel that death is something to avoided at all costs. Such is the level of most role-playing games. But Torment doesn't work that way. Aside from the fact that the Nameless One gets right back up if he's killed, which turns the normal equation on its head, you make the most progress and get the most experience by talking to people and growing in wisdom, not by killing people. Strange, isn't it?

For example, if you had murdered everyone in the Mortuary (which would be like opening fire in a mortician's office in real life), you would have missed out on numerous clues and gotten hardly any experience points at all. But if you talk to the right characters and do the right things in the Mortuary, you can level up once or twice, with practically no danger at all. I don't remember BG being that easy. Not to mention that some of things you can do in the Mortuary are actually pretty funny. I don't know why the manual and the in-game dialogue make the Mortuary out to be so dangerous. That's one reason why I'm glad I didn't read the manual. Yes, a mortuary is creepy by its very nature, and you want to avoid the ordinary Dustmen so they won't call the guards (they might think you're an intruder or a rival faction member), but Dustmen and zombies aren't out to kill anybody, and you don't need to be afraid of them. Besides, there are at least five people in the Mortuary you should talk to. If you get scared, just relax and put it all in perspective. When you see Dustmen on the street or in a bar, they won't try to harm you; they're just ordinary people who lovingly care for the dead and want to help the living prepare for their mortality. In fact, you might even want to join their faction. (It would feel kind of weird if you had just massacred a whole bunch of them.)

If you do find yourself in a life-threatening situation, you can run away or talk your way out of it nearly every time. Or you can let your enemies kill the Nameless One and you'll be safe and sound, back in the loving care of the Mortuary. There are only about four situations in the entire game where you have no choice but to fight. In fact, the next time I play, I'm going to see how low I can keep the body count. In all seriousness, one thing that Torment taught me is to have more respect for life in role-playing games. Now I don't WANT to kill everything in my path. I'd rather see what happens when my characters rely on their wisdom and their "will", which is emphasized more than anything else in Torment, or else just mellow out and enjoy the scenery and the dialogue. Being in Sigil is just like being in a real city, and you can enjoy yourself if you want to. You don't have to feel like you're on the run or in a race against time. That makes it a LOT different from BG.

I'm a little embarrassed to admit it, but the first time I played Torment, I spent a lot of effort beefing up my characters (they were the baddest characters you ever saw) because I kept expecting the encounters to become more and more dangerous just like they do in every other RPG. But by the time I finished the game, I felt that all of my worrying had been unnecessary. You can beef up your characters all you want if that's what turns you on. You'll get your chance to meet "bosses" who are as big and bad as Sarevok. You can fight them if you'd like, and if you do, you're in for a treat. But I hope you won't be disappointed to find that you don't have to fight them. In fact, sometimes it's even better NOT to. To me, that's not a drawback at all. It makes the game more interesting. I suppose it is more challenging in a way, though, since it requires you to think things through instead of hacking and slashing. But keep in mind that Torment is about making choices. The Nameless One has just begun a new incarnation, and it's up to you to decide what sort of path he'll take. I've never played another game that had so many different possibilities.

At this point in the game, if you're worried about thugs chasing you, be sure you have the option "Always Run" enabled. You can also keep one of your party members close to the area exit if you think you're in danger. I know it's a cheesy tactic, but if one party member makes it to the exit, he or she can pull your whole party out of a mess. It's not like BG, where YOU MUST GATHER YOUR PARTY BEFORE VENTURING FORTH. If you want to make a stand, Morte has 75% resistance to damage and a fairly low AC, so despite his protests, he can do a lot more fighting than you might think. In fact, at the medium difficulty setting or below, he can probably do ALL of the fighting for you early in the game while the Nameless One, uh, keeps an eye on his back (the back of his skull, that it). Also remember that if the Nameless One dies, he's fully healed. You can exploit that. Think of the advantages.


SPOILER

Not even the Alley of Dangerous Angles is very dangerous if you play it the right way. Pay attention to what happens when some of the thugs chase you across the map. Then leave the area and try it again. Learn from it and exploit it.

[fable]

Nice post, @VonDondu, but I think I know where Koveras is coming from.

1) In BG2, you begin the game with a party, possessing fighting, thiefly and magery skills. In PS:T, you begin only with fighting skills. You don't know when, if ever, you'll gain access to the others.

2) BG2 gives you some history on your character. PS:T not only offers none--its absence is part of the plot. While that doesn't materially affect the game in any way, it does make for a general sense of disorientation. Which, frankly, I like.

3) BG2 derives from yet-another annoyingly familiar fantasy universe filled with elves, dwarves, pixies, and other creatures that normally show up only after a very long night spent with very bad liquor. But the point is, they're familiar. That sense of familiarity is lacking in PS:T, where you meet and interact with characters that don't fit into the old standard slots. Again, I find this a strong positive, though I really enjoy BG2. But others may find it a drawback.

4) There is more attention to puzzles in PS:T, right from the start. How the hell do you do open the earring? How do you get through the upper level without being killed--again? If you want to acquire a disguise, how do you get the components? Much less straightforward than BG2's initial dungeon, where you know that the only thing which matters is the monster salivating just around the next corner.

My advice, for what it's worth: relish PS:T's uniqueness. It's a thinking person's RPG, and like another I can think of, Betrayal at Krondor, you won't see many like it.

[Robnark]

@ VonDondu: Some fair points, but...

getting killed: yes, your main character usually comes back (albeit usually far away), however if you miss your chance to get the raise dead ability and can't get fall-from-grace then you can't resurrect your characters, which can be far more annoying than bg2, since i found the fights harder and couldn't resurrect people afterwards.

'clues all over the place': yup, but the plot means you need the clues etc. to proceed with the plot line in question. bg2 tells you where to go and what to do, leaving you to only do it.

better to talk than fight?: again, pretty true, but that means you get rewarded for uncovering the plot, stories of your past, interesting characters. you also get interesting items and stat boosts, but i still don't find the combat easy, so i'd rather talk than fight, since the plot is better than the engine.

and the morte exploitation? yup, vey true. i used it to beat the moriadors box fiend at level 3 using only morte, NO and litany of curses. i consequently missed an ungodly amount of experience and some decent items later on

basically, in torment you're required to use your head throughout and judgement in a fight, wheras bg2 requires only a character with a decent sword arm and the ability to read a journal, and if all else fails, cheese.

[Koveras]

I guess why it's hard is because I've never played an RPG like this. BG and BGII were all combat oriented and suddenly now your fighter needs high wisdom and intelligence, something I've never done before. I've gotten used to it and already become a mage(although there seems to be a lacking of spells). Although I said hard, I didn't say it was any worse. In fact, I think it's the best RPG I've ever played.

[fable]

Originally posted by Koveras
I guess why it's hard is because I've never played an RPG like this. BG and BGII were all combat oriented and suddenly now your fighter needs high wisdom and intelligence, something I've never done before.

I think you've missed the point that you don't need either attribute: it simply becomes a more combat-oriented game if you don't have high values in those stats. It's perfectly playable as a dumb fighter--just expect to hit a lot of things more often.

[VonDondu]

It's interesting when people say that the combat in Torment is difficult. It just didn't seem that way to me. That's probably because I've played BG2/ToB so much. After playing BG2/ToB, the combat in BG1 didn't seem very hard to me, either, although it did the first time I played it.

I use a few basic strategies without even thinking about them (in no particular order):

1. Don't provoke fights unless the reward is worth it. Stay away from thugs--they turn hostile only if you get too close to them.

2. Divide your enemies and gang up on each one of them separately.

3. Make one party member a "tank" and let the rest of your group support him or her. If you can make one character "invincible", the enemies will waste their time while your party slaughters them. Morte and Annah were my best fighters throughout most of the game.

4. Use stealth and backstabbing. Backstab, run away, then come back and backstab again. Annah was killing larva worms at only 5th Level.

5. Speaking of larva worms, if you want your characters to advance rapidly and become the biggest baddasses you've ever seen, seek out the "experience cows" and milk them for all they're worth.

6. Let other characters come to your aid. In BG1, I let the town guards help me kill the bounty hunters, and there are a few situations in Torment where you can do similar things.

7. Use missile weapons to their full advantage. This strategy works very well in BG1. There's only one character in Torment who can use missile weapons, but with the right equipment, he can do most of the killing for you (20-45 points per hit, plus criticals).

8. Disrupt enemy spellcasting. The stores in Torment have an unlimited supply of Corpse Fly Charms, and Morte has a special talent. Backstabbing will also cut their spellcasting short.

9. Do lots of shoplifting and quaff lots of potions. Don't hoard them; use them.

10. Use spellcasters in your own party. Even if the spells aren't effective, the spell animations are too cool for words.

[VonDondu]

Originally posted by Koveras
I guess why it's hard is because I've never played an RPG like this. BG and BGII were all combat oriented and suddenly now your fighter needs high wisdom and intelligence, something I've never done before. I've gotten used to it and already become a mage(although there seems to be a lacking of spells)...

Maybe it will help if I explain it this way. The Nameless One is immortal, and it is obvious that he has lived many, many lifetimes. Think of the implications of that. How much do you think a person can learn in one lifetime? Now multiply that by a hundred. The Nameless One would be incredibly powerful if he could remember all of the things that he has learned in all of his various incarnations. I think that's the reason why he gains experience for uncovering his memories and why he gains stat points when he levels up. It's not so much about learning new skills; it's more about recovering his lost powers. In fact, you shouldn't really think of the Nameless One as just a "Fighter" or just a "Mage" or just a "Thief". He's a lot more than that.

You'll also see that the Planes are shaped by the power of belief. What you believe can actually become reality. Think of the potential.

It's fun to play a character who has such great power and such great potential. In a game like BG1/BG2, that would probably result in a dead-end. It's lonely at the top, and it gets boring if you're the most powerful person in the world. Torment doesn't have that problem, because no matter how powerful the Nameless One becomes (which is satisifying in its own right), the Planes will always be limitless, and there will always be creatures who are more powerful than you. In fact, there are at least two creatures in the game who can put an end to your immortality in an instant and put you back at the "Reload" screen. In one instance, I think it's just a device to keep you from messing up the critical path, but it also proves a point. Take pride in your characters, but also look at the great big world around you.

And BTW, don't let the lack of swords and armor mislead you into thinking that the Nameless One is "missing" something. He does just fine with knives, fists, rings, and tattoos. Kinda cool, huh?

As for the apparent lack of spells, it does seem like a problem early in the game. You can acquire spells from a couple of unlikely sources early in the game. Later in the game, they're readily available. The really good spells come from special sources. The most important thing is to look for a tutor. As you go around talking to people, see if they have any training to offer. You can even ask the members in your own party if they can teach you things. Just imagine if you could have asked Edwin to teach you a few spells.

[Platter]

Originally posted by Robnark
however if you miss your chance to get the raise dead ability

How could that happen?

[VonDondu]

Originally posted by Platter
How could that happen?

If you don't ask the right person enough questions.

[Platter]

You can still ask the right questions anytime, as long as you're in Sigil.
If by "missing your chance" he meant when you leave Sigil... well that's like half way into the game. Not exactly a narrow window.

[Dazzo]

OK, where did you guys order this game?
at blackisle.com its out of print...

[Aubrey]

Originally posted by Dazzo
OK, where did you guys order this game?
at blackisle.com its out of print...

You mean, at last they have decided to let public know about it.

About the game, try Amazon.com or use a Search Engine (Google, Yahoo, Metacrawler, etc.) to find other e-shops selling the game.

If by any chance you find it available in the White Label (Virgin) edition instead of the original one, take it. I don't think there is any difference between the two, plus the White Label is cheaper and contains also the official patch. It's the one I've bought myself.


Cheers

[interrupt]

You can still find it for sale at places like Best Buy and Walmart. Check the budget sections. It's sold together in a pack with Soulbringer (hope I'm remembering the game title correctly).

Glad people still dig the game.

- Scott Warner