possible LotR connections

[Loredweller]

Originally posted by Nighthawk:
<STRONG>Men of Rohan speak old english. The languages that he uses make it very difficult to translate his works and maintain the same feel.</STRONG>

Have had a bit of thought Roharim is said speaking old North language, if i'm right, what hobbits do not understand, though it sounds familiar to them. So it might be the Old English indeed...
The reminiscence of s.c. "old English", IMHO, rather is a style of ritual English what appear in some important moments ("thee", "thou" etc). I have a belief it's rather might be taken from English of, say, XVI century and based on style of old translations of Testaments, chronicles and other documents of that time. At last it is a way writers in some other languages are using. I have a belief or so i'm taught that English was changed generally somewhere about XVI and XVII century (not absolutely sure about the numbers, though ). The theory i've heard states that was because English became the nation of sea and sailors. There was a need for language to talk from ship to ship or over all the ship without misunderstandings. So English language lost gender, cases and case endings, and gained the strong turn of the sentence. It appears very wise even from viewpoint of the information theory. IMHO, this is just a thing what made English very effective (dominant, in fact) computer and internet language.
Though, as you might see, i'm not so proficent in English to contend for sure
Just MO,
L.

[ 04-18-2001: Message edited by: Loredweller ]

[Manveru]

But we couldn't forget about Tolkien's elven languages that have nothing to English - There are few fantasy authors that made his own language with more complicated story. As far as I remember Quendi was based on finnish/french/latin languages mix. The similar thing is with Sindarin and basics of orc's language.

BTW. do you know where I could find dictionary or translation of Drow language ? (What does this f*****g Viconia say ? abbil ? rivvil ?)

What is the name of main Faerun language ?

[Loredweller]

Originally posted by Manveru:
<STRONG>But we couldn't forget about Tolkien's elven languages that have nothing to English - There are few fantasy authors that made his own language with more complicated story. As far as I remember Quendi was based on finnish/french/latin languages mix. The similar thing is with Sindarin and basics of orc's language.
</STRONG>

Of course, but not near all fantasy writers are skilled linguists having language creation for their hobby
L.

[Nighthawk]

Quoted from fable:

<STRONG>
There is an elf who is an important minor character in The Lion and the Wardrobe, though his name escapes me. As to they're being minor, that begs the point. Your remark was--

</STRONG>

I remember a faun, dwarves, beavers...lots of other animals, the white witch (mostly human), and several others...certainly no named elves.

<STRONG>...and I responded by pointing out several authors of Tolkien's period, such as Lewis, who included non-pixyish Elves that didn't fit your all-encompassing statement.

</STRONG>

We know Lewis was Tolkien influenced...in fact he admits it himself while saying on the other hand that Tolkien didn't take input very well, either ignoring it or throwing everything out and starting over...so, if he infact includes Tolkien-style elves rather than the pixies I know show up on occasion, it is a clear sign of Tolkien influence.

Yeah, I thought Sword of Shanara was too recent. Clearly VERY heavily Tolkien influenced...as you say, almost plagaristic.

[Nighthawk]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Here's a very good, famous example of Old English, in excerpt:

</STRONG>

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Their actual speech has been 'translated' in the text, only the names remain based on the old english... eg Eowyn (horse maiden), Eomer (horseman), Theoden, Rhohan, etc (sorry I can't remember the rest of the translations).

[fable]

As originally posted by Nighthawk:
We know Lewis was Tolkien influenced...in fact he admits it himself while saying on the other hand that Tolkien didn't take input very well, either ignoring it or throwing everything out and starting over...so, if he infact includes Tolkien-style elves rather than the pixies I know show up on occasion, it is a clear sign of Tolkien influence.

With respect, I don't see any influence on Lewis from Tolkien, and I've never read of any. Lewis including elves rather than pixies wouldn't be a clear sign of influence by Tolkien, since there were quite a few popular, highly regarded authors who included their own take on elves in their works around that time, and shortly earlier. I posted a group of them, above. If anything, I suspect that both Lewis and Tolkien may have been influenced by Dunsany, since there's a straight line back to Dunsany's elves from Tolkien, and to Dunsany's grand style, as well. (I'll try to find some of my Dunsany books, and post a brief passage or two from him.) Don't take my word for it: go and read his stuff, either online, or check out his books in a library. If I didn't know his short stories and novels were written close to the turn of the 20th century, I might mistake them for works made 50 years later.

Remember, Tolkien's fantasy wasn't at first a popular or critical success. The Hobbit appeared in 1937, and frankly, nobody cared. The LOTR showed up in 1955, and it was an abject failure in the US until more than ten years later, in the late 1960's when the environmental movement latched onto the work. So it's kind of retro-adjusting the past, in a sense, to see Tolkien as a great influence on other writers, when he wasn't even apprectiated until considerably later.

[ 04-18-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

[EMINEM]

For all this talk of J.R.R. Tolkien, remember that he himself was steeped in Christian tradition.

The tale of a godchild, both human and divine, struggling to makes sense of his nature while pursuing a destiny whose fulfillment will change the history of the world, goes far beyond Tolkien, beyond English literature, and finds its roots in the New Testament.

[ 04-19-2001: Message edited by: EMINEM ]

[fable]

Eminem writes:
The tale of a godchild, both human and divine, struggling to makes sense of his nature while pursuing a destiny whose fulfillment will change the history of the world, goes far beyond Tolkien, beyond English literature, and finds its roots in the New Testament.

And far beyond the New Testament, too. Many pre-Judeo-Christian religions have as one of their primary gods the deity who is a child of of God and a child of Man, destined to reveal truth to all. The Dionysian religion, Mithras (roughly the same time as Christ), Vishnu and others. The Sun King is much older than Christianity, and I suspect Tolkien, as versed as he was in Celtic lore, wove medieval non-Christian themes into LOTR. I see little of the dying, cross-centered God in the work; but I do see the ranger, oaken son of the woodlands, ascend to his rightful throne.

This is an interesting theme, Eminem. But since this forum is really about BG2, perhaps we should move it down to the Speak Your Mind category, and establish a new topic area. What do you think?

[ 04-19-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

[Nighthawk]

I'm not sure where you see anything resembling a 'godchild' in Tolkien.

As far as Lewis being influenced by Tolkien, this comes not from his writings, but from interviews with him. I don't know if it shows in comparing his writing with Tolkien, but he claims to have taken input from Tolkien and we know they spent a lot of time talking together.

[fable]

Nighthawk, if Lewis got input from Tolkien, then likely the influence wasn't stylistic or in content, IMO. For Lewis' style or content to have been influenced by Tolkien, the former would have had to read a great deal of Tolkien had an age when he was absorbing these factors, before fashioning his own literature. That stands to reason. You don't get your style from someone else if you've been writing since the age of 15 and you're now 55.

Clive Staples Lewis was born in 1898. He was already writing in the 1920's. The book containing Tolkien's mature style and greatest treatment of elves, LOTR, came out in 1955. By that time, Lewis had much of his most distinctive literature published, and it was far more popular (at the time) than Tolkien's work. (And it really wrankled Tolkien that this was the case. The feeling was reversed when Tolkien became a bestseller very late in both their lives.)

So Lewis' style was set and his most famous fiction published long before LOTR was in print.

I suspect (and this is purely speculation on my part) that Lewis might have gotten hints on how to structure a novel's plot, or display character traits, from Tolkien: the technical background to the creation of fiction that readers never consider. Lewis wasn't frankly very strong in this, IMO (though his most rabid fans would likely object to that). I think he was poor at maintaining tension, primitive at handling fictional structures (like the breakaway, or flashback), and unable to keep his personal opinions of his characters from showing up in his books--instead of letting the readers draw their own conclusions. These were all areas in which Tolkien was strong.

[Manveru]

We should still remember that Tolkien was in the same society with Levis - The Inklings.. so they both influenced themselves.

About "child of god" : I agree , there is no mention about that in Tolkien (there are no such a character)- this theme was much earlier than Tolkien's stories and wasn't used by him.

[ 04-19-2001: Message edited by: Manveru ]

[Dúnadan]

*Bump*

And I just noticed another similarity between Tolkien and BG II, the Balor in the Underdark was said to have been disturbed by miners, much like the Balrog of Moria.

[sigurd]

It is easy to find similarities overall, it is actually almost impossible NOT to. But overall BG2 has little similarities in the storyline. The balor is a good example, they probably "stole" that from Tolkien, but that has little to do with he main storyline

[Dúnadan]

I find it amazing that one cannot publish anything that has to do with fantasy and not borrow from Tolkein. That man is beyond us all...