Grade the Character Kits!

Impaler987 · Post by **Impaler987** » Sun Nov 10, 2002 1:38 pm

If you could give a grade to all the character kits in Baldur's Gate II, what would you give them all?

Not that this is strictly an opinion thread; my grades are not the final authority by any means on what classes are good or bad. Feel free to agree or disagree, and post your own report card.

Explanations would take way too long, so I'm just gonna list the grades. If you need explanations on why I graded certain classes the way I did, ask me and I'll see if I can get around to answering.

Oh, and some kits have such great, legitimate dual-classes that I feel should be mentioned in an indented reference under the kit itself.

So, here we go:

Fighter: B-
Berserker: B+
---Berserker/Mage: A
---Berserker/Cleric: A-
---Berserker/Druid: A-
Wizard Slayer: D
Kensai: B-
---(not listing kensai combos because they are cheesy and make no role-playing sense)

Barbarian: B

Paladin: B+
Cavalier: A
Inquisitor: A+
Undead Hunter: B

Ranger: B
---Ranger/Cleric: A+
Archer: A-
Stalker: A
Beastmaster: D
---Beastmaster/Cleric: B+

Monk: A

Mage: B-
Wild Mage: B+
Abjurer: C
Conjurer: A-
Diviner: D-
Enchanter: C
Invoker: B-
Illusionist: B-
Necromancer: B
Transmuter: F

Sorceror: A

Cleric: C
Various Kits of Cleric (alignment specific): B+

Druid: C
Shapeshifter: C+
Totamic Druid: C-
Avenger: C+

Thief: C
Assassin: C+
---Assassin/Fighter: A+
---Assassin/Mage: B-
Bounty Hunter: C+
Swashbuckler: B+
---Swashbuckler/Fighter: A-
---Swashbuckler/Mage: A

Bard: D+
Blade: B+/A-
Jester: D
Skald: B+

ForgotenWarrior · Post by **ForgotenWarrior** » Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:21 pm

I'd give barbarian and kensai an A-, both are extremely powerful, one can take hits because of his increased hp and the other can hurt like no other melee.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:54 pm

id give the undead hunter and chav a higher rating that inquisitor, since you get draw on holy might....turns a pally into a pure killer....inq dispell and true sight are great, but potion swapping with a spell trigger scroll allows multiple hits with cleric dispell, which is a good substitute...

sorcs rate a++

and the shapeshifter moves to a- when you add wes's shapeshifter rebalance mod....

ive heard jesters are fun, since bard song is map range, so cast clones, and confuse everyone in map, let them kill each other off....

wild mages should rate higher, if you dont install sola mod, you can stack impr chaos shield and set all surges to 100, cast normally, so a wild mage becomes a super sorc...

no surprise from me about the cheesy exploits..hehheheh....

kensai mage should rate around a++++++++++++++

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 12:34 am

Stalker A-
Wild Mage A-
Barbarian B+
Jester B
Assassin B-

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 3:06 am

---(not listing kensai combos because they are cheesy and make no role-playing sense)

To each their own.
I say the same as you, if you want explanations about why I think you are
wrong, I can give 'em.
Besides, berserker/mages are WAY more powerful/cheesy and make WAY less
roleplaying sense than kensai/mages.
(magery needs training not rage)

Speaking about cheese then, did you know that in PnP, 2nd edition,
Ranger/Clerics could cast druidic spells only up to the 3rd level?
In truth, this is the only cheesy class in your list.

Impaler987 · Post by **Impaler987** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:26 am

Originally posted by Littiz
Besides, berserker/mages are WAY more powerful/cheesy and make WAY less
roleplaying sense than kensai/mages.
(magery needs training not rage)

If you read the kit description of the berserker, you'll notice that it says, "Berserkers tend to be barbarian-like in nature, but not always. Sometimes it is a conscious choice that the warrior-in-training makes." So not all berserkers are stupid or irrational or out-of-control. The fact that, unlike barbarians, they can grandmaster weapons reflects their discipline and their seriousness toward training. Thus, some berserkers do have the mind and the discipline to turn to wizardry. However, they are not totally devoted body and soul to the art of fighting the way kensai are. So if your argument on why a kensai would be legitimate consists solely of the discipline factor, your argument is weak because a kensai literally devotes his entire life to training with his sword; in Oriental Adventures PnP the kensai devotes his entire life to the utter mastery of just ONE weapon, so it's even more restrictive there. It makes absolutely no sense for a warrior so dedicated to all of a sudden switch to wizardry.

Speaking about cheese then, did you know that in PnP, 2nd edition,
Ranger/Clerics could cast druidic spells only up to the 3rd level?
In truth, this is the only cheesy class in your list.

Which is why I play a Ranger/Cleric honestly. I use his stealth the way a ranger would when it's called for, and at spell levels beyond level 3 I make sure to pick only cleric spells.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:20 am

You're speaking to a guy who played immediately as a berserker/mage.
It's easy to justify, in truth, any character you want (go see the
Chrysta NPC in development, assassin/druid....)
especially with the Blood of Bhaal in your veins.
That's why I said Ranger/Clerics are the only cheesy class, they're
implemented wrongly.

The rest is opinion.
To me kits are a model to describe character's attitudes.
My PC wouldn't call himself a "Kensai", we're not even in an oriental
environment.
Simply, he study swords, and refuses to equip armors and the like as those
are hindrances. The kensai-kit proves the best "model" for it.
I could just make an identical kit and name it differently.
As for changing "professions"... well I myself had humanistic studies,
then went for engineering.
I studied piano for a while (LONG ago), then went, definitely, for
heavy metal drums (blessed day

)

I don't see why someone with the capabilities couldn't switch to something
else, if motivated...
In the BG2 world, where magic *exists* and someone has taken your soul,
you're quite motivated to find adequate answers...

Aramant · Post by **Aramant** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 10:38 pm

Regarding your poor mark on Transmuters:

More likely than not, yes, they aren't particularly wonderful in Baldur's Gate, but I'd like to point out that in 3e PnP, at least, they kick some serious butt. Not so much for the dealing of damage, but they make fights easier. For example, casting Enlarge on an enemy archer's bowstring, Reduce on an enemy fighter's longsword, Enlarge on his helmet, not to mention Rope Trick, Polymorph, Transmute Rock to Mud and vice versa, Disintegrate, and (drum roll) Timestop! Yes, I'm currently playing a Transmuter in DnD. I wanted to see how a mage would be when they DON'T rely on Fireballs and Magic Missiles. It's much fun.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:39 am

Hey Aramant, ingenious use of spells really hehe. Made med think of that mel brooks movie... Lord Helmet anyone? Your schwarz is a s big as mine hehe.
It is always good fun to reag someones grading of characters but have you actually played them all? SInce you have ToB I must point out that the Wizardslayer is alot better now than he used to be...if you bare with him that is...
I think berserker/mage is fine except maybe that rage should disable spellcasting like tensers transformation does.
And kensai/mages are just very stylish.
In ToB all thieves are A++ IMO.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Wed Nov 13, 2002 9:03 pm

Originally posted by Impaler987
So if your argument on why a kensai would be legitimate consists solely of the discipline factor, your argument is weak because a kensai literally devotes his entire life to training with his sword; in Oriental Adventures PnP the kensai devotes his entire life to the utter mastery of just ONE weapon, so it's even more restrictive there. It makes absolutely no sense for a warrior so dedicated to all of a sudden switch to wizardry.

I think I'm with Littiz on this. The male lead in Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon was essentially a kensai who tried to give up fighting to become a priest but found he was called to take up the sword. This seems to be a pretty good illustration of the dual-class concept (although it would be Kensai-Cleric or Kensai-Monk in his case).

If you use your imagination you can come up with a psychological justification for just about any class combination.

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:17 pm

Originally posted by Littiz
I don't see why someone with the capabilities couldn't switch to something
else, if motivated...
In the BG2 world, where magic *exists* and someone has taken your soul,
you're quite motivated to find adequate answers...

Great point!
Imagine yourself as a Kensai, training between studies in Candlekeep from the fist time you could pick up a wooden sword to when you are abruptly uprooted. After seeing the magically-overdone killing of Gorion you can't tell me you wouldn't--as a Kensai remember--make it a point to investigate magic. Then, when the spell-slinging vilians of the Sword Coast cast spells like charm, hold person, slow, time stop, I for one would try to learn about magic. Remeber, swords don't kill people, people kill people! If you can't move, its pretty hard to dismember a mage, training or no.

PS, @Littiz
you say you "then went for engineering." If you don't mind my asking, what discipline of engineering did you go for? I am curious because I am in pursuit of mechanical engineering.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Thu Nov 14, 2002 3:08 am

I think berserker/mage is fine except maybe that rage should disable spellcasting like tensers transformation does.

That'd be cool and balanced again!! Probably just minor hacking with the innate, pasting something from Tenser... will try when I have some time...

Re: PS
I could call it computer and software engineering..
before they changed the whole universitary system (I'm one of the last ones
bound to finish the old way....), a strange place where you learn theory of
programming without actually programming (almost), and a lot of useless (for us)
stuff like electronics, Z-transforms and transforms of all kind
Sort of I_know_a_bit_of_everythin' "computer bard"

Skooter, you can still change your mind and save your soul!!!

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:13 am

im in the middle of the cisco professional certs...

ccnp, cisco certified netweenie peon....

tough as nails, and just passed 3 of 5...whew...switching and routing....

i agree with littiz, run for the hills, skooter!!! save yourself...

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 5:39 pm

I installed the shapeshifter rebalancing mod yesterday and I have to say that the changes made are good ones. Exactly what I was looking for. Anyone who likes shapeshifters but was annyoed that you didnät get what you bargained for should try it.
I still dont have the greater werewolf form but the normal one is pretty cool too.
Being a shapeshifter makes for some funny dialogues... Mencar calling me a puny human hehe etc.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 5:52 pm

Originally posted by Impaler987
Kensai: B-
---(not listing kensai combos because they are cheesy and make no role-playing sense)

Wow. You just threw out a whole class of warrior mages in several games, standalone and online, that I've played over the years.

I think it really comes down to the fact that you couldn't find a reasonable modus vivendi for a kensai/mage, and you've (correctly) read people's remarks up here about what a cheesy character can be created from the class. It doesn't logically follow, though, that a roleplaying kensai/mage can't be created, or that it will be played in a cheesy fashion. I've done it, and I'm sure others have. In fact, I see two potential paths for this character, depending upon whether you pursue the mage or kensai options first.

Typically, I've run the kensai first. At a certain point he's dismissed his team, reoriented his thinking to mental exercises that give him greater command of the enviroment and himself. Then, he's undertaken small quests on his own, and eventually looked up all his old pals for further adventures. Trust me: this works.

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 12:25 am

Warning: More shamelessly off-topic posting ahead.

Originally posted by Littiz
Skooter, you can still change your mind and save your soul!!!
Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
i agree with littiz, run for the hills, skooter!!! save yourself...

Alas, you are too late. I found a passion for engines (think heat, not Infinity) at a young age, an I fear that I am now beyond redemption...

Requisite semi-on-topic material to justify this post's existance:
My favorite class/kit that I've played as a protagonist is the barbarian, due to the simpliciy of playing it. However, I am liking the Kensai/Mage NPC in the Tortured Souls mod. Besides, if you try hard enough, you can justify just about any class/kit combination, even from a role-playing point of view.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 6:21 am

Originally posted by Aramant
Regarding your poor mark on Transmuters:

More likely than not, yes, they aren't particularly wonderful in Baldur's Gate, but I'd like to point out that in 3e PnP, at least, they kick some serious butt. Not so much for the dealing of damage, but they make fights easier...

I don't know much about 3e PnP rules, but the biggest drawback to playing a Transmuter in BG/BG2 (according to 2e rules) is that the opposition school is Abjuration, which is where most of the protection spells and "dispel"-type spells come from. If a Transmuter can't dispel an enemy Mage's defenses, he can't help the party much in combat against such an opponent, and if he can't protect himself from magic and other kinds of damage, he might as well run.

By the same token, I wouldn't want to play an Abjurer, either, since the opposition school is Alteration (the school of the Transmuter).

InfiniteNature · Post by **InfiniteNature** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 10:23 pm

With regard to character grading, I kind of like them all, the only character I don't like so far is the monk and the druid, I know I know the monk is really powerful once getting up to a certain level, but getting up to that level can be irritating, and same with the druid.

On the whole, my personal opinion of course, I would have to say the either the ranger or paladin (either undead or inquis) would have to take first place for the A+ marking, mainly because one they are pretty powerful tanks and can cast spells, and don't suffer the experience point penalty that some of the multi or dual classes suffer.

Following that would have to be the fighter definitely a frontliner, or maybe fighter/mage, or bard (pure class of course never found a need for all those special classes, with bardic elven chain mail, the bard makes a good backup warrior plus the lore and pick pocket ability is really cool, played my whole fourth game through with my bard, same with the fighter mage played my whole third game through with this one, so lets see fighter A-, with the bard and fighter mage scoring a B+, the thief class in general comes next in my opinion with a grade of a B, I am playing a assasin right now, but is actually not that bad of a warrior suitably equipped of course, and I have managed to equip all the members with equipment I have stolen, so I don't have to worry about always buying things, plus when it comes to enemies like the CF area, the poison comes in handy.

After that would have to come the cleric class and mage class, B- both are absolute musts but very poor front line warriors and don't have to many hitpoints, which is why I gave them that grade. I prefer to have a mix of characters to ofset the weakneses of my characters faults, you know paring Aerie (cleric/mage) with either Viconia or Anomen for the clerical powerhouse, or with Nalia or Imoen for the mage powerhouse.

Last would come the monk class and druid class, grade C, good but not that great in my opinion, only my opinion of course, to weak in the beginning, and for the druid might as well take the cleric for healing, for the monk, well frankly I guess my main problem is that one it is hard to level up, and two well I don't really think the paper doll looks that cool.

ctid1977 · Post by **ctid1977** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 4:54 am

I found it interesting that you graded the Transmuter specialist Mage as an F?

Your lowest grade.

I find alteration to be the best of the Mage schools to choose as it gives you the greatest selection of attack spells, and the only spells not allowed are pure abjuration ones. A transmuter is always better than a pure mage, and is probably the most useful to include in a group.

I did solo with a transmuter and found it dificult but rewarding.