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Party Advice

This forum is to be used for all discussions pertaining to Black Isle Studios' Icewind Dale II.
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Archibald
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Party Advice

Post by Archibald »

I have just created the following party and would like your comments on how well it will fare and what could be done to improve it.

Aasimaar Fighter 4/PaladinX 16/10/14/8/14/18-main tank
Half-Orc Barbarian 20/18/18/4/14/2-tank
Human Battleguard of Tempus 14/10/14/6/18/14-healer/backup tank
Moon Elf Wizard-10/16/10/18/14/10-for summoning and buffing
Human Sorcerer-10/10/10/18/10/18-party leader and attack spells
Drow Rogue/Fighter-12/20/12/18/10/8-sneaky thief and archer.High intelligence for skill points and dex for thief abilities.Multiclass fighter as i do not want a pure rogue/

All comments welcome.
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Aregorn
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Post by Aregorn »

Are you willing to change the ability points? if so, using the races you have chosen:
1. I thing your Paladin has too much intelligence, I would reduced it to 3. Increase 2 points of dexterity for the AC (full plate allows you 1 Dexterity bonus) 2 more for strength (melee unit). Reduce 1 from Wisd. and add two to Const. If you want the Wisdom for the spells you can increase it later to 14 again, and this will happen before you reach 4 level Paladin spells.
18/12/16/3/13/18

2. For the Barbarian I would eliminate the useless extra intelligence and charisma points and maximize Wisdom for the saves getting 2 from Const (if you are not playing with the random HP it is more than enough, specially for a barbarian) Anyway I think you wrote wrongly the ability points as Half Orcs has only 74 to distribute and not 76.
20/18/16/1/18/1
I would also add 4 levels of a fighter for the weapon specialisation and additional feat.

3. Again I think you are miss distributing ability points for your Cleric. You did right to always maximize the ability points where the particular character needs it but remember also to minimize it where it is not necessary. Here you have too much Char and Intel, which is not required at all.
16/18/18/3/18/3
Again if you want it for melee it will not be a bad idea to give him 4 levels of a fighter.

4. For the wizard
6/20/16/18/13/3

5. The Sorcerer I found it a bit more complicated
6/16/12/18/6/18
Wisdom saves will improve with the character levels

6. I am not familiar with the Drow they have far too many penalties (I do not remember which ability penalties they have, I think they were on the Const) , but if you really want it I guess as a sniper-rogue-assassin, considering -2 for Const:
13/20/16/18/10/3
They are quite magic resistant so you do not need much wisdom.
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Bloodstalker
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Post by Bloodstalker »

Just remember when dealing with a drow character, you already have a penalty for leveling up. They will be consider a level higher than they actually are, so in essence, you need more XP to take a drow from level 1 to level 2. Thats not so bad in itself, but unless you are willing to keep the rouge and fighter classes within one level of each other, you ar gonna be hit with another penalty, as niether one is the drow favored class. If you get more than1 level apart, you take a XP hit.

The same thing is true for the Aasimmar. The Paladin is the favored class, but they have special restrictions on mutliclassing. Read the description ofe each faith, or you could wind up not being able to gain anymore levels as a Paladin. I think the Tempos faith will let you do the fighter withhout the penalty though :)
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Post by fable »

Why a Drow ranger/fighter? As I recall, drows in IWD2 have all sorts of small bonuses, plus bonuses to Dexterity and Charisma. For the latter to be useful, you'd want to create a bard or sorc--someone who uses Charisma for spellcasting. My bard is a drow, for instance. And they suffer from penalties in daylight, which can adversely effect their melee skills, though I don't believe magic is bothered.
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Post by dios »

just gotta say that i really love to play with my drow sorc...just love the dialogue options.."wow really a drow", "are YOU going to help us?" man...i like that...

when my aasimar paladin makes the introduction talk my sorc collects all the money. =)

drows ar really nice...
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Post by Aranan »

.... You realize that with an intelligence of 1, you're outsmarted by just about anything alive, right? Polar bears, dogs, boars, etc.. they've all got 2 intelligence. I hope you play the character true to their nature -- i.e. horribly stupid.

A charisma of 1 or 3? wtf?
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Post by koz-ivan »

Originally posted by Aranan
.... You realize that with an intelligence of 1, you're outsmarted by just about anything alive, right? Polar bears, dogs, boars, etc.. they've all got 2 intelligence. I hope you play the character true to their nature -- i.e. horribly stupid.

A charisma of 1 or 3? wtf?


ah yes, the powergamer supreme set up. while it lacks roleplayer style, there is very little drawback and huge advantages to making a few ugly stupid char's...
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Aregorn
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Post by Aregorn »

Dear Aranan, I do not know how you did understand the rules, but rules at least in IWD2, they are totally independent of interpretations. A Half-Orc with an intelligence of "18" or "1" will have the same chances to kill in melee any cleaver Boar with an intelligence or 2 or even 25, but yes the chances to kill the animal and even receive damage from it will vary depending on how many ability points you are allocating in strength and dexterity. Again, if you read the rules, the ability called Intelligence (which could have been called differently as for sure Fable would have correctly highlight) only affects in the case of a fighter the amount of skill points you will have available to distribute per level. Is my opinion that 1 skill point per level is more than enough for my Half-Orc non-diplomatic Barbarian, then I really do not need more than 1 ability point in intelligence giving me the possibility to add extra precious ability points in Str. or Dext. Anyway to the same Half-Orc, for making you feel better I would allocate maximum wisdom (18) (for the saves according to the rules). Then in your subjective kind of game can you objectively tell me that my fighter is stupid if he is that wise? Why do you have to take everything literally? IWD2 intelligence does not mean cleverness in the real world. Even taking advantage of the rules you can still use your imagination. :)
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Aranan
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Post by Aranan »

Dear Mr. Powergamer,
Pick up a copy of the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook and read THOSE rules. In case you didn't know, that's what IWD2 was based on. Then read the section for intelligence in the IWD2 manual. Intelligence means just that: how book smart a character is. The only reason that it doesn't affect how your characters are is because the programmers didn't apparently care if you had a character dumber than a frog, but stronger than an ox. You shouldn't have the capability of speech if you have under 7 or so intelligence (or you could talk, but not comprehend what you are saying nor would anyone understand you. i.e. baby talk).

Don't tell me that I don't know the rules. I know them, and I never accused you of not knowing them. I did accuse you of being a blatant powergamer though, and powergamers suck in my book.

That's all I've got to say :D

edit: And yes, I can say your character is stupid. 1 int / 18 wis isn't possible physically (not going into "real world with magic" here..). The average commoner in DnD worlds has 10 to 11 in all stats. Your barbarian (and other characters) are total freaks of nature that shouldn't be alive and functioning.
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Archibald
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Post by Archibald »

It seems I started a bit of a flame war between Aranan and Aregorn.I would like to point out that I am not a powergamer and have no intention fo giving anyone an intelligence score of 1.I like to roleplay as well and it would not be realistic for my fighter to be a gibbering idiot.I do agree with Aranan that yo should maximize the stats where they are needed and take away from others tomake your character as powerful as possible but not to the extent of having unrealistic scores.I have decided to not take any ability score below six except with cahrisma in the case of the fighters but I will keep it realistic.Thanks for the avice.
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Post by Aregorn »

I am sorry for what you say Aranan, it looks you are stubborn as it can be. If rules are created is to make an order and balance. If you are upset with your interpretation of the rules and how they reflect it in the game, then complain to Black isle, do not buy their games or just programme your own. If you want to run a race with a full plate armour because it looks cool or because it adds extra challenge, I think there will be nothing against it within the Olympic rules, but I am sorry to disbelieve you will finish not even near to the rest. But then might be you will feel better by doing so, and if it makes you happier then is good for you. Just please do not complain or swear to the rest of the runners if they wear normal racing suits. I suggest for your case a good idea will be to create a game "mod" where stats can not be lowered under the basic initial values given in each race only distributing the 16 ability points given in the character creation step, remembering always that is not the original game but a game mod which will add extra difficulty in the game play breaking the balance set by black isle. I did it my self and is quite fun to play. And please do not get angry, so far it looks to me that this forum is a real good tool to expose your ideas, not to impose them, always in a positive way maybe enriching peoples game play, ok?
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Post by PoD »

LOL, Aregorn (sic) I can't believe you said this:

Again I think you are miss distributing ability points for your Cleric. You did right to always maximize the ability points where the particular character needs it but remember also to minimize it where it is not necessary. Here you have too much Char and Intel, which is not required at all.


Charisma is needed for turning undead. You could leave it all to the Pally, but he is several levels behind, and is probably needed to hack the undead that don't get turned.

Archibald, you might consider reversing the Fighter/Paladin ratios. If he is the main tank then IMO the extra feats are worth more than the weak cleric spells. Also giving 4 levels of Fighter to the Barbarian will give him lots of extra abilities. As for the rogue/fighter then a drow is just about the worst race you could pick IMO. Halfling is the obvious choice, Tiefling if you want something different. Many advocate a Rogue xx/Ranger 1 combination, for a dual short-sword wielding thief. A Tiefling Monk (of the Old Order) / Rogue is another interesting possibility.
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Aranan
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Post by Aranan »

*refrains from commenting further on Aregorn's post*
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Post by Aregorn »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PoD
Charisma is needed for turning undead. You could leave it all to the Pally, but he is several levels behind, and is probably needed to hack the undead that don't get turned.


Woops, my mistake PoD. I totally forgot about that as I never use the turn undead feature. Thank you for the correction.
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Post by Gruntboy »

*watching for someone, anyone, to step out of line*

:D

These are my non-flame-fuelling observations:

Min/max with point allocation is fine, you have to live with the drawbacks as well as the good points. I quickly restarted after reducing wisdom for most characters - I was so subsceptible to spells.

Intelligent fighters? You should try the "Expertise" feat sometime.

Int and Wis are two different atributes. I think of Int as education and training. Wis as common sense. How many educated people can't tie their own shoes or cross the street properly? How many "streetwise" have lots of education and qualifications?

IIRC, People with int of 3 or so could only communicate with grunts (*ahem*) and were essentially "languageless" in 2nd edition. But this isn't pure paper 3rd edition, its black isle's interpretation.
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Post by koz-ivan »

Originally posted by Gruntboy
Min/max with point allocation is fine, you have to live with the drawbacks as well as the good points. I quickly restarted after reducing wisdom for most characters - I was so subsceptible to spells.
agreed, reducing wis can have serious negative impact. but the same is certainly not true for cha & int, imo there are very few skills for ftrs that are worth anything. and certainly none worth 7 stat points.

Intelligent fighters? You should try the "Expertise" feat sometime.


true, but that requires a 13 int iirc, ten stat points, 12 for .5 orc.

IIRC, People with int of 3 or so could only communicate with grunts (*ahem*) and were essentially "languageless" in 2nd edition. But this isn't pure paper 3rd edition, its black isle's interpretation.


granted that no honest dm would allow a player to get away w/ that much min maxing, but honestly there is no drawback in the game for those stats, save roleplay consideration.

perhaps this is what bis had in mind when they included the "grunting" ftr soundset (#3 iirc)
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Post by PoD »

Hehe and I think a party with a gorgeous couple and 4 uglies is quite feasible. How often does that fit bird have an absolute minger for a best mate?
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Post by Gruntboy »

Exactly (re: soundset).

And yes, the 13 int for Expertise rewards you with a potentially huge AC bonus at later levels, whilst still being able to hit your foes. Those 10 stat points can quickly be made up for with toughness feats, strength spells/potions/items and dex bonus limiting armour.

There are so many ways to cut the 3rd edn rules. :)

So lets all get along. ;)
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Post by koz-ivan »

expertise is a very cool feat. i use it more w/ ftr mages (since their int needs to be pretty high)
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Post by Tybaltus »

Originally posted by Gruntboy

There are so many ways to cut the 3rd edn rules. :)

So lets all get along. ;)
Its complicated as hell, but Im doing my best to chip away at what I dont know yet. I learn through experience. Though you all are helping me a bit for what to look out for and what to avoid.

When I got the game, I never played with these rules, I thought I was just going to dive in like BG2 and IWD1...well, its been a......learning experience. So far the only things I have used effectively have been rapid fire, turning undead (which doesnt really count) and there is some sort of a tracking skill, that tells you about whats around in the wilderness (forgot what its called).

Sorry for this bit of short SPAM right here but: Well met, koz-ivan, I think you are the only Gamebanshee member Ive met that lives in MA like I do.
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