Unraveling Ravel (spoilers)

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 1:38 pm

Re: Various issues

Originally posted by Aubrey
There had been some problem with the Paranoid Incarnation, because I pushed him too hard once and he turned against me, but I reloaded and followed a softer, more reassuring path the second time. I then spoke to him using the Ugo (spl?) language and he soon calmed down and surrendered to me.

Did you notice that he pulled his arm off and used it like a club? That's what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned detachable body parts that you could use as weapons. Using an arm as a club is a lot less gross than pulling out your own intestines and strangling someone with them.

Sorry, that was a sick joke. (Again.)

For what it's worth, the Paranoid Incarnation didn't seem as evil to me as some of the other characters in the game. Everything evil thing he did was done under duress. That's a moral defense as well as a legal defense, since we don't hold people responsible for their actions if they don't realize what they're doing or if they can't help themselves. His crimes were a lot less severe than the Practical Incarnation's crimes, which were calculated and cold-blooded.

By the way, if I'm not mistaken, didn't the Practical Incarnation say that he killed Deionarra with his own hands?

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 2:07 pm

Re: Re: Various issues

Originally posted by VonDondu
For what it's worth, the Paranoid Incarnation didn't seem as evil to me as some of the other characters in the game. Everything evil thing he did was done under duress. That's a moral defense as well as a legal defense, since we don't hold people responsible for their actions if they don't realize what they're doing or if they can't help themselves. His crimes were a lot less severe than the Practical Incarnation's crimes, which were calculated and cold-blooded.

I'm in general agreement with the above. Especially after experiencing that memory in the Sensorium from Deionarra's POV, the practical incarnation seems incredibly ruthless, manipulative and repugnant. But I'm curious: was it ol' Mr. Practical who dealt with Hamry's dad, the architect of your tomb? Or the paranoid manifestation?

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 4:00 pm

Re: Re: Re: Various issues

Originally posted by fable
But I'm curious: was it ol' Mr. Practical who dealt with Hamry's dad, the architect of your tomb? Or the paranoid manifestation?

Certianly the paranoid incarnation, there are several references to it...of course I can't recall the exacts...I really need to start playing this game again

Robnark · Post by **Robnark** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 4:06 pm

the writing on the diary was most certainly by the paranoid incarnation, and it follows that, since he was the one who learnt the language and didn't want anyone else reading the diary - paranoia - he killed the linguist.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 4:17 pm

Originally posted by Robnark
the writing on the diary was most certainly by the paranoid incarnation, and it follows that, since he was the one who learnt the language and didn't want anyone else reading the diary - paranoia - he killed the linguist.

Which makes him seem every bit as evil in his actions as Mr. Practical, even though Paranoia has I'm Crazy written all over his forehead.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 5:09 pm

In case there's any confusion, the Practical Incarnation built the tomb trap near the Drowned Nations. He admits that it was a waste. If you ask him about it, the Paranoid Incarnation will interrupt you and boast that he found the trap and changed it to make it even HARDER. He also changed the writings on the wall, which makes the Practical Incarnation very angry. Since the Practical Incarnation is the one who built the tomb, he's the one who killed Hamrys's father to keep it secret.

The Paranoid Incarnation created the dodecahedron and wrote in it using the Language of the Uyo. He killed his tutor so that he would be the only person who could read it. He also created the Sensory Stone trap, and he's the one who was caught in the Maze. He really likes solving puzzles and building traps (which must be difficult with only one good arm).

Platter · Post by **Platter** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:45 pm

Xachariah died in the Fortress.
Dak'kon;
"The woman died the death of grief. The blind archer died the final and most merciful death, the death of the body."

And I'm all for forgetting the alignment system even exists.

For what it's worth, this is the exact quote from Ravel;
"I had thought that dying at his hand would fulfull the requirements the past put forth."
She said the "away with ye" stuff probably because she knew it didn't work when she saw TTO had still come for her, and let's face it, she's a little screwy...
As TTO says right afterwards, "You cannot have thought that one would have a chance?"
Seriously, you do realise that was TTO's plan the whole game, to follow you around so he could know how you found him, and then destroy every "link" in the chain that led you to him?

Ravel: Ravel cackles. "Of the past I am not held to particulars... you are fortunate to receive *anything,* o caustic one!"
Nameless: "Oh, am I? It's just that the chain of who knows what and where they are never seems to be a smooth series of links."
Ravel: "Ahhh..." Ravel smiles, holding up one of her talons. "And that is why you must keep each link safe, for if they are not smooth now, imagine what the chain will be like when MORE links shatter... time and death are not as *patient* with others as they are with you."
Nameless: "What are you saying?"
Ravel: "What if one of your precious links was to *die?* And what if you forgot yourself again? What would you do then? Where would your stolen mortality be, then... it would be LOST forever, for there would be no one left to ASK how to reach it. Tracing your path would become harder... mayhap IMPOSSIBLE..."

Platter · Post by **Platter** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 12:43 am

I managed to track down the source for that Chris Avellone quote;
http://feedback.blackisle.com/forums/sh ... genumber=4

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 12:52 am

Thanks for the link.

After perusing some of the messages, I can see that several people thought the same things I did: the prophecy referred to the three incarnations you meet inside the Fortress of Regrets, Ravel was never the Nameless One's "enemy", and Fhjull's inclusion among the "three" was a bit of a twist because you never had to fight him. I never considered Pharod to be an "enemy", either; he helped the Nameless One, especially by giving him Annah.

Looks like it was an interesting debate.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:37 am

@ VonDondu --

By the game's inner logic, if Dak'kon dies in your service, he is released from your service, even if you resurrect him. So letting him fight shadows and then resurrecting him is the best thing you could do for him.

I remember Dak'kon saying that he would be freed from my service as long as I die -- become a mortal again, that is. But you might be correct.

Nordom is not a robot; he's a construct. His body is made out of "gear spirits", which are alive in their own way.

Okay.

In my opinion, the Nameless One's Mortality does not "kill without hesitation"; he gives everyone a chance to stop threatening his existence and kills them only as a last resort. Since the Nameless One's current party was so persistent, he decided to kill them permanently to serve as a warning to others who might threaten him. He takes no pleasure in causing death. He wants to avoid the need to kill anyone else. Even when he sends shadows to kill the Nameless One, the purpose is not to harm him, but to make him to forget where to find his Mortality. That doesn't strike me as evil. The only outright murders that the Nameless One's mortality has committed are Pharod and Ravel, both of whom deserved death for their terrible crimes and the continuing threat they posed to everyone around them.

TTO may give a chance to NO's party to get out of there, but the rest of his actions don't seem so innocent to me. The fact that he (it) wants to keep his freedom, though he (it) was never meant to be free and separated from NO, doesn't look as an act of self-defense to me. He admits that will deal with both Trias and Deionarra's spirit so as no one be able of helping NO next time. Is this an act of self-defense. Possibly, but not to my eyes. TTO's plan and hope that NO would kill Trias states his (its) evil. He (it) might be a Neutral Evil, but evil remains there.

As for Ravel's and Pharod's deaths, do you think that because they had commited terrible crimes TTO's act of murdering them is justifiable? I don't.

Finally, I feel I should say that my characterization of one being good or evil is not based on game's logic, but on my impressions while playing the game. I understand that there might be many things I haven't understood, and maybe I need a second time through the game (not right now, at any rate) so as to have the chance to find some missing "links", i.e., about the game's ending and the Blood War.

Whatever the "truth" might be, I feel there are a lot of intepretations one can give to issues involved in the game. As I have also the feeling that there are a lot of unanswerable issues, such as why Fhjull was NO's enemy? Unless I've missed something, there hadn't been a clear statement of Fhjull hating NO or why was that.

Cheers

Platter · Post by **Platter** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:56 am

Modrons are not made of gear spirits. Modrons and gear spirits are two different creatures that make their home on Mechanus.
Nordom's crossbows are gear spirits. Nordom is not.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:50 am

Originally posted by Platter
Modrons are not made of gear spirits. Modrons and gear spirits are two different creatures that make their home on Mechanus.
Nordom's crossbows are gear spirits. Nordom is not.

What is Nordom then? Just a Modron? But then, what is a Modron?

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:32 pm

Originally posted by Aubrey
I understand that there might be many things I haven't understood, and maybe I need a second time through the game (not right now, at any rate) so as to have the chance to find some missing "links", i.e., about the game's ending and the Blood War.

Whatever the "truth" might be, I feel there are a lot of intepretations one can give to issues involved in the game. As I have also the feeling that there are a lot of unanswerable issues, such as why Fhjull was NO's enemy? Unless I've missed something, there hadn't been a clear statement of Fhjull hating NO or why was that.

The designers probably intended for the game to remain "broken", splintered, and mysterious to mirror the Nameless One's own existence. I also suspect that like a lot of artists, they took our understanding of a lot of things for granted when in fact we have no idea what they're referring to.

I also suspect that a few things that should have been included in the game never made it into the final cut, or there were some that got cut in the final draft that could have made things tie together a lot better. Take Fhjull, for example. I don't think we're seeing everything the designers originally intended for him. He's supposed to be the Nameless One's enemy, but he can't remember ever meeting the Nameless One. He's imprisoned by Trias, but if Trias dies, he'll be free. Unfortunately, we have no idea what he plans to do after that, or whether it has anything to do with the Nameless One. From looking at the dialogues with Infinity Explorer, it appears that it should have some effect on the ending of the game, but I can't figure out what it's supposed to be.

I don't know if we'll ever know why Fhjull is the Nameless One's enemy or what part he plays in the Nameless One's fate. Is that a flaw in the game? Well, I guess it depends on what you expect from the game.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:15 pm

I also suspect that a few things that should have been included in the game never made it into the final cut, or there were some that got cut in the final draft that could have made things tie together a lot better.

And as we know the original designers planned for a sequel, even broadly hinting as much in the endgame, it's quite possible that at least a few matters would have been cleared up then. We know, for instance, that at least one of the NO's incarnations was involved with some extremely unsavory evil characters, given the demons that recognize him in the Smoldering Corpse Bar. We can speculate that the NO would have run across more "old acquaintances" in the evil planes. I think it's perfectly within reason to suggest that the NO would have led a lawful evil party against chaotic evil forces in the eternal war.

If this discussion continues much longer, I'm going to have to write Guido Henkel and ask him point blank what his plans were for a followup.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:25 pm

Originally posted by fable
We know that at least one of the NO's incarnations was involved with some extremely unsavory evil characters, given the demons that recognize him in the Smoldering Corpse Bar. We can speculate that the NO would have run across more "old acquaintances" in the evil planes. I think it's perfectly within reason to suggest that the NO would have led a lawful evil party against chaotic evil forces in the eternal war.

If you talk to Sebastian in the Lower Ward and ask him why it's called the Lower Ward, he'll tell you about the "incident". We know that the Nameless One was involved because he recalls a memory about it. The Lower Ward was originally called the Prime Ward. It like a holding tank for newcomers. "Some berk" didn't like that, so he formed a rebellion. He discovered a Shadow-Sorcelled Key (stuck to his palm) that opened portals to the Lower Planes. The Lady of Pain dealt with the rebellion and probably sliced the Nameless One to shreds, although he obviously survived her punishment. According to Sebastian, the fiends whom the leader brought into the ward simply vanished. They probably returned to the Lower Planes.

It makes me wonder if the Nameless One had anything to do with the Seige Engine landing in the Lower Ward. Coaxmetal gives no indication that he remembers the Nameless One, so maybe he didn't have anything to do with it.

Platter · Post by **Platter** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 12:10 am

Originally posted by VonDondu
If you talk to Sebastian in the Lower Ward and ask him why it's called the Lower Ward, he'll tell you about the "incident".

I bet that incident was also linked to Ravel's attempt to free the Lady from her cage...
Well, they seem similar at least.

Zelgadis · Post by **Zelgadis** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 9:50 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
The Lady of Pain dealt with the rebellion and probably sliced the Nameless One to shreds, although he obviously survived her punishment.

Maybe thats when the paranoid incarnation was mazed. Seems like something he would do.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 10:32 pm

Originally posted by Zelgadis
Maybe thats when the paranoid incarnation was mazed. Seems like something he would do.

I respectfully disagree. Protesting government action, leading a rebellion, working with anybody else instead of avoiding people and keeping to himself (and playing with traps and puzzles)... those don't really suit his character, in my opinion. But you're right in one respect: the Lady's usual punishment for crimes against her or Sigil is the maze.