I have played a few versions of the Kensai, from Pure, Mage to Thief. I have found that the thief seems to be the only better than average combo, due to his "Use any item" High Level ability. Just a background on how I have been playing the BG series
Full SOA install with TOB add on and official patches. Don't change files in the game and only added the merchant files from the Deluxe addition. That's me the way I play vanilla style.....end of discussion.
Pound for pound I find that the Kensai's are consistently being raised and healed far more often than any of my other fighters. Yes yes they have great melee abilities, but the horrible consequence of bracers or armor(includes most headgear and shield) really are a set back. Dual wielding is nice but, playing with a barb, zerk, pally and even a cleric with a shield lasts alot longer in the thick of battle than an armorless, swordmaster.
I guess what I am trying to say is, I don't believe the Kensai to be all that. Why do so many people play this character and swear how fantastic it is? I understand if people want a good challenge, that's great, but I have seen ppl on this board call him the best fighter or the best fighter combo..........I beg to differ.
Opinions?
Thanks
fishhead
Kensai overrated?
Wow, I came to this forum thinking I would get some intelligent reponse or opinion, such as have u tried this or even a decent rebuttal regarding some use of stat or a strategy that I should try and i get
"[sigh]
Everyone has their preferences. Deal with it.
"?
I meant in no way that I had a better method or that their preferences suck, just that in my analysis of the kit, it didnt seem to be up to snuff with the other fighter types due to it's disadvantages. I was looking for some enlightenment on the choice for Kensai...........
"[sigh]
Everyone has their preferences. Deal with it.
"?
I meant in no way that I had a better method or that their preferences suck, just that in my analysis of the kit, it didnt seem to be up to snuff with the other fighter types due to it's disadvantages. I was looking for some enlightenment on the choice for Kensai...........
I never liked it much meself either, i must admit, but further into the game - and areas such as watchers keep - when the enemies are as hard as tungsten nails anyway, the kensai bonuses are useful, and the crappy AC is rectified by buffing your party - a necessity for even the most dangerous fighter. If you stick at it, they can be good, but they really suit the more scheming player. Anyway, i don't use one cos i am the king of pack rats and hate having to use a fighter character that is prevented from using the most useful piece of fighter kit - good armour. personal taste really.
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At last incapable of further harm
The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
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At last incapable of further harm
The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
i'll try my best, but i've never played a kensai.
it's just there potential for pure destructive power. I think the kensai/mage is the popular way to use this character. throw on stoneskin/prot from magical weopons and you have 3 rounds of whirlwinds free from damage.
I have used an archer and they also get those bonsuses for damage, and after seeing what an archer can do... i can believe the power of the kensai.
But another way to look at shields... I've had Korgy using a shield with an AC of ~19 (give or take 1) and him dual wielding. Yes, in normal battles he was unhittable. But bosses were still hitting, so why not dual wield or go 2 handed... and if you're going to do that, you're going to be hit most of the time... and if you're going to be hit most of the time, why not be hit all the time, and if you're going to be hit all the time, why not make sure you dish out the most damage possible... hence kensai.
it's just there potential for pure destructive power. I think the kensai/mage is the popular way to use this character. throw on stoneskin/prot from magical weopons and you have 3 rounds of whirlwinds free from damage.
I have used an archer and they also get those bonsuses for damage, and after seeing what an archer can do... i can believe the power of the kensai.
But another way to look at shields... I've had Korgy using a shield with an AC of ~19 (give or take 1) and him dual wielding. Yes, in normal battles he was unhittable. But bosses were still hitting, so why not dual wield or go 2 handed... and if you're going to do that, you're going to be hit most of the time... and if you're going to be hit most of the time, why not be hit all the time, and if you're going to be hit all the time, why not make sure you dish out the most damage possible... hence kensai.
Kensai/Mage is a good combo for SoA, with the mage protection spells (eg. Spirit Armour, Stoneskin) the armour restriction is no problem. Kensai/Thief is a killer combo in Tob. The Use any item removes any item restriction, and the Asassination in combo with Kai and the Kensai damage bonus is really extreme.
I agree with you. I find the Kensai to be weak and unbalanced overall. Initially the concept had an appeal to me, but upon considering this character class I decided it is a dead end, being far too specialized in one direction and lacking in nearly every other.
Looking at the other classes, I see more of a balance in play. Though mages need to be protected at first, they eventually become very, very nasty, if you know how to use them.
My personal favorite has been the Cavalier, though the lack of missle weapon usage puts him in a melee role permanently. He can play that part in a party well, though there is nothing quite like a fighter that is max specialized with a weapon. Ouch. That is why I included Sarevok in my TOB party. He's bad news in battle.
I don't have a very high opinion of Monks, either. I rank them a bit better than a Kensai, but not much. What does anyone else think about that?
Looking at the other classes, I see more of a balance in play. Though mages need to be protected at first, they eventually become very, very nasty, if you know how to use them.
My personal favorite has been the Cavalier, though the lack of missle weapon usage puts him in a melee role permanently. He can play that part in a party well, though there is nothing quite like a fighter that is max specialized with a weapon. Ouch. That is why I included Sarevok in my TOB party. He's bad news in battle.
I don't have a very high opinion of Monks, either. I rank them a bit better than a Kensai, but not much. What does anyone else think about that?
CYNIC, n.:
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
@fishhead, give us time...
I personally don't rate the Kensai (or monk). Both have to be 'kid gloved' for a long time before they can really start to shine. A straight Kensai never repays the effort, but a Kensai/mage who uses spells sensibly should never need raising (etc.) because they can cast spells to make themselves essentially unhitable. The robe of Vecna makes AC less of an issue (etc). But the start up overhead is pretty intense.
I personnally think that a F/M/T is easily the most cheesy class or kit combo. - Curdis
I personally don't rate the Kensai (or monk). Both have to be 'kid gloved' for a long time before they can really start to shine. A straight Kensai never repays the effort, but a Kensai/mage who uses spells sensibly should never need raising (etc.) because they can cast spells to make themselves essentially unhitable. The robe of Vecna makes AC less of an issue (etc). But the start up overhead is pretty intense.
I personnally think that a F/M/T is easily the most cheesy class or kit combo. - Curdis
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[quote="Dilbert]That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard[/quote]
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Well the kensai solo has to be the toughest I think, but in a group I like them. Cast spirit armour and chaotic command on them and wear an ioun stone. This will take away most of the drawbacks. Granted if you don't like to do this then they die alot but otherwise they are good. What I like about them is that to me they are the most realistic of all the fighters, meaning that if run into a hundred goblins you are in trouble and with a kensai you are but with a berserker you are not.
My conclusion is that they are very useful in a group but absolutely useless solo.
My conclusion is that they are very useful in a group but absolutely useless solo.
You can't handle the truth!
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Thaco bonuses are beyond goodness, and here is what someone else posted, which I am refining in my own kensai mage combo....
all special abilites are really spells, so cast
greater acuity,
draw on holy might, or slayer transform
kai
greater whirlwind...
something like for a round youre doing about 60 damage per hit, and with the kensai fantastic thaco, you can whack dragons solo....
kai is not all that great, offers far less than draw on holy might, but its ok. poison weapon is far better than kai, and this makes assassin fighters awesome.
the kit is designed for pure offense, and it suits my style of play very well, for example my kensai had boots of speed, and I like to activate greater whirlwind when enemy sighted, and use the massive boost in speed, twice as fast as boots alone, to close to meelee range and whack the baddest enemy before it even knows the party is there.
As a pure offensive killer, the kensai reigns supree as a quick butcher. the other kits are a mix of offense and defense, use the kensai to kill the spell casters in a group, whack the most dangerous and youre ok.
as for defense, use axe of unyilding or ring of gaxx.
all special abilites are really spells, so cast
greater acuity,
draw on holy might, or slayer transform
kai
greater whirlwind...
something like for a round youre doing about 60 damage per hit, and with the kensai fantastic thaco, you can whack dragons solo....
kai is not all that great, offers far less than draw on holy might, but its ok. poison weapon is far better than kai, and this makes assassin fighters awesome.
the kit is designed for pure offense, and it suits my style of play very well, for example my kensai had boots of speed, and I like to activate greater whirlwind when enemy sighted, and use the massive boost in speed, twice as fast as boots alone, to close to meelee range and whack the baddest enemy before it even knows the party is there.
As a pure offensive killer, the kensai reigns supree as a quick butcher. the other kits are a mix of offense and defense, use the kensai to kill the spell casters in a group, whack the most dangerous and youre ok.
as for defense, use axe of unyilding or ring of gaxx.
They call me Darth...
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
Fishhead, forgive my brutality, but I assume you don't know
what you're talkin' about. The kensai/mage is terrific, only the berserker/mage can have a match.
You can't wear armor, but neither you want to. There's Robe of Vecna
out there!
Without spells, I have a "natural" AC of -7 (-9 when I'll find ring of Gaxx). If I cast some spells, I reach easily -23.
But -7 is already enough. I noticed enemies rarely touch me, 'cause
I have 0 speed factor with weapons (and for many spells too, thanx to Vecna) so before they swing they're almost always dead or stunned
(by Celestial Fury).
IF someone manages to hit me, AND IF I'm not stoneskinned, a little
wound can be regenerated fast.
IF, in very unlikely circumstances, I drop to half hitpoints, then
contingiencies of any kind make me untouchable while an Horrid Wilting
takes care of the enemies (but the combinations here are too many to elencate them all! I'm still experimenting!!)
In very bad situations I can release the spell trigger Tenser+Haste+
True Sight, so even if the spells are disabled the active true sight
assures me that no one can avoid my wrath!!!!!
Add to this that you can do all that a simple mage could do
(enough to beat the game).
Actually I play with minimal reloads, and with no preparations.
I tried for fun Adalon without even a stoneskin active (I was level
12/16), and she died after a few spells and blows.
No preparations, no help.
Really Kensai/Mages and Berserker/Mages are unstoppable.
I admit dual/multi with use any item can be powerful, but IMO they
shouldn't even exist. I mean, this ability has gone beyond control
of the designers. It should permit thieves to use items like scrolls,
or the melodic chain, thanx to their smartness and experience, not weapons like Carsomyr that may be wielded only by the pure of heart.
Most of all, use this ability to equip items that go against the ethos
of the other class is really CHEATING in my point of view.
On the other side, kensai/mages complement perfectly (both have to move freely without armor for example), so they are a powerful AND stylish combination.
Oh, and don't forget the Ioun Stones or the Circlet of Netheril. Only the bracers slot remain unused in the end.
what you're talkin' about. The kensai/mage is terrific, only the berserker/mage can have a match.
You can't wear armor, but neither you want to. There's Robe of Vecna
out there!
Without spells, I have a "natural" AC of -7 (-9 when I'll find ring of Gaxx). If I cast some spells, I reach easily -23.
But -7 is already enough. I noticed enemies rarely touch me, 'cause
I have 0 speed factor with weapons (and for many spells too, thanx to Vecna) so before they swing they're almost always dead or stunned
(by Celestial Fury).
IF someone manages to hit me, AND IF I'm not stoneskinned, a little
wound can be regenerated fast.
IF, in very unlikely circumstances, I drop to half hitpoints, then
contingiencies of any kind make me untouchable while an Horrid Wilting
takes care of the enemies (but the combinations here are too many to elencate them all! I'm still experimenting!!)
In very bad situations I can release the spell trigger Tenser+Haste+
True Sight, so even if the spells are disabled the active true sight
assures me that no one can avoid my wrath!!!!!
Add to this that you can do all that a simple mage could do
(enough to beat the game).
Actually I play with minimal reloads, and with no preparations.
I tried for fun Adalon without even a stoneskin active (I was level
12/16), and she died after a few spells and blows.
No preparations, no help.
Really Kensai/Mages and Berserker/Mages are unstoppable.
I admit dual/multi with use any item can be powerful, but IMO they
shouldn't even exist. I mean, this ability has gone beyond control
of the designers. It should permit thieves to use items like scrolls,
or the melodic chain, thanx to their smartness and experience, not weapons like Carsomyr that may be wielded only by the pure of heart.
Most of all, use this ability to equip items that go against the ethos
of the other class is really CHEATING in my point of view.
On the other side, kensai/mages complement perfectly (both have to move freely without armor for example), so they are a powerful AND stylish combination.
Oh, and don't forget the Ioun Stones or the Circlet of Netheril. Only the bracers slot remain unused in the end.
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"Ever forward, my darling wind..."
I agree that the "Use Any Item" ability goes well beyond what it was intended for. For a thief to wield Carsomyr is basically a joke, for upon reading it's description you find that only the most virtuous Paladin is permitted to wield it. As a player of AD&D long ago, I seem to recall that if your alignment was not good, you received damage if you even touched the Holy Avenger. If you were anybody but a Paladin, you couldn't wield it, for it would not permit you to.
I understand this may have been necessary to forgo for the sake of game design, but at the minimum I would love to see a patch that would make certain items unusable to a rogue with that special ability.
As for myself, the enjoyment of the game drains away when Haer'Dalis borrows Carsomyr from my Cavalier while he uses a weapon and a shield for a battle. Oh boy.
I understand this may have been necessary to forgo for the sake of game design, but at the minimum I would love to see a patch that would make certain items unusable to a rogue with that special ability.
As for myself, the enjoyment of the game drains away when Haer'Dalis borrows Carsomyr from my Cavalier while he uses a weapon and a shield for a battle. Oh boy.
CYNIC, n.:
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
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UserUnfriendly
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as you know, I am a super cheese pure power gamer, cheating scum sucker.
so her I was, bopping along the underdark, and was bout to face abaalor. so I got my party into position, decided against free action for nasty death gaze spell, and cast remove fear. so I moved my KENSAI SORC into position, and cast stone skin and POISONED HOLY AVENGER.
BWWWAHHHAAHHAA!!!
not only do goody two shoed ness paladins avoid my party like plague, but hinking of cluing in unholy reaver and pretend I am anti paladin. dont get me wrong, I have a huge amount of respect for the inquisitor kit, the high level dispell is awesome beyond belief, and the true sight and the immuniteis are so GOOD...leaves helm slot free for HELM OF BRILLIANCE!
so I had kensai sorc reach 75% magic resist with holy avenger...
holy avenger, 50
amulet of power 10
robe vecna 10
ring of gaxx 5
so I have dropped the viccy immunity project...someone figured out if you give viccy human skin armor, and other items you can get her magic resit up to 100...making her more useful than keldorn in many ways. keldy is like a spell bouncer, when a nasty psy blast amkes every one go down, hes still up and swinging, but a viccy immune to magic makes her more usefull to a spell oriented player, and you still get a good dispell magic and true sight.
so her I was, bopping along the underdark, and was bout to face abaalor. so I got my party into position, decided against free action for nasty death gaze spell, and cast remove fear. so I moved my KENSAI SORC into position, and cast stone skin and POISONED HOLY AVENGER.
BWWWAHHHAAHHAA!!!
not only do goody two shoed ness paladins avoid my party like plague, but hinking of cluing in unholy reaver and pretend I am anti paladin. dont get me wrong, I have a huge amount of respect for the inquisitor kit, the high level dispell is awesome beyond belief, and the true sight and the immuniteis are so GOOD...leaves helm slot free for HELM OF BRILLIANCE!
so I had kensai sorc reach 75% magic resist with holy avenger...
holy avenger, 50
amulet of power 10
robe vecna 10
ring of gaxx 5
so I have dropped the viccy immunity project...someone figured out if you give viccy human skin armor, and other items you can get her magic resit up to 100...making her more useful than keldorn in many ways. keldy is like a spell bouncer, when a nasty psy blast amkes every one go down, hes still up and swinging, but a viccy immune to magic makes her more usefull to a spell oriented player, and you still get a good dispell magic and true sight.
They call me Darth...
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
I agree that the Kensai/Mage is prolly the best combo to dual, but as Curdis mentioned in his post the Kensai must be "kid gloved" around for some time before he can be truly great. Yes I have used stoneskin, blur and other nice defensive spells and the Kensai do have great abilities that make the combo mage a force to be reckoned with, but just think about for example the dwarven berserker or barbarian? The entire game he is basically solid and downright explosive in the end with rage and all the extra High level skills. No babying or worrying about him at all, while the kensai/mage needs to be manually manipulated or custom scripted. Let's face it you cant simply give the K/M a fighter script,(he needs to cast defensive spells)and you cant give him mage scripts(he needs to attack quickly after casting his defensive spells), and well if you like scripting thats great. However I still would like to do some further testing. I currently have a saved K/M 12th/20th with all the fixings(Robe of Vecna, Celestial fury and Dak'kon's, boots of speed....blah blah blah) maxxed specialization in Katanas and two weapon style. What if I duel my 20th dwarven barb with him? or even my 20ish ranger/cleric or even my 22nd paladin? Are these fair contenders or should I level my K/M some before I attempt these duels?
Well I soloed the kensai until level 12, then dualled to mage
and soloed (as simple mage!) until I rescued Imoen, and since
then kept her with me.
The Kensai was very powerful from the beginning, you just have
to know how to use him.
When dualled to mage he becomes godlike (as the berserker/mage)
I don't know if the duel you plan to try would have any value,
but IMO a straight fighter type would have no chances to win.
With the RIGHT triggers and contingiencies active, I see no
hope for a (however powerful) fighter against a kensai/mage!
and soloed (as simple mage!) until I rescued Imoen, and since
then kept her with me.
The Kensai was very powerful from the beginning, you just have
to know how to use him.
When dualled to mage he becomes godlike (as the berserker/mage)
I don't know if the duel you plan to try would have any value,
but IMO a straight fighter type would have no chances to win.
With the RIGHT triggers and contingiencies active, I see no
hope for a (however powerful) fighter against a kensai/mage!
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Normal fighting duels can be tested. But it is hard to test fighting duels with high level/special abilities (need some scripts).
And there is no way to try out real magical duels (the game engine doesn't support it). Testing magically enhanced fighting duels can be tried out, but actually it soon "became" a magical duel (removing protections, etc.)
The best pure figthing class and the best weapons for some classes were already tested for SoA, search for "duel" in earlier threads.
[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: Kovi ]
And there is no way to try out real magical duels (the game engine doesn't support it). Testing magically enhanced fighting duels can be tried out, but actually it soon "became" a magical duel (removing protections, etc.)
The best pure figthing class and the best weapons for some classes were already tested for SoA, search for "duel" in earlier threads.
[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: Kovi ]
As a pure fighter, there probably isn't much point in selecting a Kensai over a Monk. When you create a dual class character combining the fighting prowess and additional HPs of a Kensai fighter with the skills or casting abilities of other classes like a Kensai/Mage or Kensai/Thief, you begin to see the real advantages of this class. Add wizard and priest buffs to the fighting ability of a Kensai, throw in Tensor's Transformation and you have a powerhouse. Summon up some cannon fodder and then wade into the mobs and watch the carnage.
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pooburgler
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I know this topic has been done to death, but I made an Assassin/Mage and am loving it so far. lots of invisiblity type spells and items along with poisoning weapons (and spells!!), traps, backstabbing, and spell-slinging make for lots of fun rather than the hack n slash plus spells of a kensai-mage.
Am I the only one who who recognizes the supremacy of Half-Elven Fighter/Mages? F/Ms rule!
Unlike the vanilla Kensai, you need not baby-sit your F/M in battle since he has access to all the protection spells (Stoneskin, Mirror Image, etc) from the very beginning.
His Thaco gets progessively better as his level increases. Nor does it stop increasing until you hit the ToB level cap of 24/20. On the other hand, the Kensai's Thac0 comes to a standstill at the point you dual him into a Mage. It is also at that point his Kensai skills are rendered useless. By the time you recover them, the game is pretty much over.
A F/M can wear armor, bracers, and helmets. The benefits of this ability cannot be overestimated. An F/M with 18 DEX, wearing the Armor of the Hart, Helm of Balduran, Ring of Gaxx, Ring of Earth Control, and Sentinel Shield will have an armor class of -15. Thus, even without their spell repertoir, F/Ms are un-hittable save by the demons and dragons.
A F/M gains the high level abilities available to mages and fighters after achieving levels 13/12, or when his combined experience totals 2000000+ (IIRC).
And finally, a high level F/M can employ ridiculous battle tactics like: Time Stop/ Greater Whirlwind/ Greater Whirlwind/ Time Stop/ Greater Whirlwind/ Greater Whirlwind/ Time Stop/ Greater Whirlwind Greater Whirlwind, to make mincemeat of anyone who gets in your way.
PS Actually, because of their bonus spells per level, Gnome Fighter/Illusionist are potentially more powerful than their Elven and Half-elven F/M counterparts.
Unlike the vanilla Kensai, you need not baby-sit your F/M in battle since he has access to all the protection spells (Stoneskin, Mirror Image, etc) from the very beginning.
His Thaco gets progessively better as his level increases. Nor does it stop increasing until you hit the ToB level cap of 24/20. On the other hand, the Kensai's Thac0 comes to a standstill at the point you dual him into a Mage. It is also at that point his Kensai skills are rendered useless. By the time you recover them, the game is pretty much over.
A F/M can wear armor, bracers, and helmets. The benefits of this ability cannot be overestimated. An F/M with 18 DEX, wearing the Armor of the Hart, Helm of Balduran, Ring of Gaxx, Ring of Earth Control, and Sentinel Shield will have an armor class of -15. Thus, even without their spell repertoir, F/Ms are un-hittable save by the demons and dragons.
A F/M gains the high level abilities available to mages and fighters after achieving levels 13/12, or when his combined experience totals 2000000+ (IIRC).
And finally, a high level F/M can employ ridiculous battle tactics like: Time Stop/ Greater Whirlwind/ Greater Whirlwind/ Time Stop/ Greater Whirlwind/ Greater Whirlwind/ Time Stop/ Greater Whirlwind Greater Whirlwind, to make mincemeat of anyone who gets in your way.
PS Actually, because of their bonus spells per level, Gnome Fighter/Illusionist are potentially more powerful than their Elven and Half-elven F/M counterparts.