Pagan Solstice celebrations (no spam)

[fable]

A couple of people have PM'd me about starting up a thread on how pagans celebrate the season. Although I doubt we'll get enough response to keep the thread on the first page for more than a day, it's probably worth a shot.

First off, the solstice season was chosen as the time for Christmas by Western church leaders in the 4th century CE. There is no internal evidence in the bible suggesting that Jesus was born at that time, but by overlaying the holiday on top of a very popular pagan celebration, Christians were making it easier for non-religionists to "transition" to the new, um, cult.

The Solstice, though, was celebrated for several thousand years prior to the appearance of Christ, with much the same connotations attached. For example, the Egyptian god of life/sacrifice Osiris was entombed on December 21st; at midnight, priests emerged from his inner shrine before the populace, holding a picture of an infant, crying out "The Virgin has given birth, the light is waxing upon us!"

The Ancient Romans, true to the syncretic nature of their religious practices, permitted an extraordinary number of religions to be worshipped in Rome. Emperor Aurelian created a single holiday for all of them as an example of the unity of these religious views, called "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun," on December 25th. Its worshippers individually worshipped Dionysus, Helios, Baal, Attis, Osiris, Perseus, Theseus, Orpheus, Zeus Zagridis, Seth-Orpheus, Hercules, or Mithra.

Most of our current Christmas symbolism derives from the pagan cultures of Northern Europe. Red, green and white were the colors that the Druidic Celts used at this time of year. Modern pagans who follow these traditions (and pagans, being heterodox, tend to mix traditions), often refer to the Solstice as Yule, or Wheel--symbolizing the turning of the year, the ivy of the waning year giving way to the oak of the waxing--and it lies between the October 31st festival of Samhain, the New Year, and February 2nd, Imbolg, the quickening of spring, the return of the Goddess from the underworld.

I realize that all this will probably sound sappy to some, and intellectual to others, but it's really just a matter of the traditions you hold. A Christian trying to explain the idea of a god being born as a human yet remaining a god would probably sound a little odd to some folks, too, if they aren't previously exposed to it. It's really just what you're used to, and what you favor.

In any case, the Solstice, to pagans, is a time of reflection on the miracle of life, and the joy of charity and affection to be shared with others.

I'll take on any reasonable questions.

[Gwalchmai]

How is ‘pagan’ defined in this case? Does it specifically follow the British Isles version of druidic lore for celebrating the solstice, or are other religious practices also included? (such as Native American?)

[fable]

Pagan is used here to mean any Western (ie, non-Oriental), non-monotheistic religions. So yes, Native American practices of various tribes are included. So are Wiccan, Druidic, Ogdoadic, shamanistic, etc, religious traditions.

Note that Oriental traditions aren't truly "excluded" from anything. It's just a useful way of defining non-monotheistic traditions outside of a global area where they remain, as they always been, very common.

[Chanak]

To be truthful I'm brimming with questions, specifically:

What traditions or practices do you observe? I suppose my mind is filled with visions of dancing around a bonfire, which sounds like great fun. Do you get to be the King Stag?

[HighLordDave]

My questions don't really have to do with the solstice celebrations, but with paganism in general:

Are there different sects and denominations of paganism just as there are for Christianity? If so, what are the differences?

I believe that many young people express an interest in paganism as a sort of rebellion against the beliefs of their parents. In your experience, it this a fair statement? Why or why not?

Many mainline churches are experiencing a decline in membership and financial support. Is this the case with pagan religions, too?

[fable]

Originally posted by HighLordDave
Are there different sects and denominations of paganism just as there are for Christianity? If so, what are the differences?

Christianity is a monotheistic religion. The differences between various pagan religions tend to be more like the differences within the polytheistic religions of India, which are usually lumped together as Hinduism (and derive from the French word, Indoo, for the subcontinent). As a result, differences between pagan groups can be considerable in terms of the object and method of worship, though (as was the case with pre-monotheistic religions, historically) they usually recognize their own patterns of worship and belief and one another's forms.

There are exceptions to this. The most noted is the Dianic group of Wiccans, or witches, who try to hog all publicity and insist (as a sort of anti-Christianity) that God is only female, and that only women can get close to Her. As a rule, though, their groups have been fading in popularity over the last two decades. The major sects tend to be Wiccans (some goddess worshippers, and those who worship a combination of gods and goddesses), Druids (sorry, no Insect Plague spells, here), and various pagan organizations in smaller denominations.

Most pagans share the following:

1) A pattern of worship that involves the invocation and celebration of pre-monotheistic dieties. Many pagans are Celtic in orientation, but there are quite a few groups that look to the Germanic/Scandanavian gods, or the Slavic. Santaria, that South American combination of African and Catholic pantheons, and Native American religions, are also nominally grouped as pagan.

Most pagan religions are reconstructions. The people who create and follow them are seeking a spiritual path outside mainstream religions. This is a webpage that gives a good, honest, short background on Wicca, without any of the drivel about links to folkloric figures that occasionally disfigures such things.

2) A concern for the environment. This doesn't mean that all pagans are necessarily politically liberal; I've known quite a few who were qute conservative. The high priest of one Wiccan coven whose an old friend of mine favored McCain in the 2000 primaries. But generally speaking, they do tend to be more politically aware, and less into traditional role models. I suppose it comes with the territory, when your religion doesn't match that of hundreds of millions of people around you.

3) Privacy. Most worship in private rituals with friends or by themselves. There are been a number of instances of arson, jobs lost, and physical abuse--even shootings. At the various least, most pagans have some reason to fear social ostracism in communities where they have "come out." Public pagan ceremonies are more in the way of occasions to show everybody else that they don't sacrifice children and bay at the moon.

4) The worship ceremonies tend to cluster around a series of holidays linked to the cycles of the seasons. The same ritual elements seen in mainstream religions--altars, chalices, candles, incense, chanting, etc--are used. On the other hand, most pagans believe that influencing matter through the mind and the will is quite possible; but then, I have seen people light candles in Churches to gain luck, or give money to a Church to "secure a seat in heaven." So maybe the pagans that do this aren't so far away from their monotheistic cousins.

I believe that many young people express an interest in paganism as a sort of rebellion against the beliefs of their parents. In your experience, it this a fair statement? Why or why not?

I think it's more of a sense of failure in spiritual values. If daddy and mommy say that God wants us to be honest and good, but Timmy sees that dishonesty pays and that hardly anybody is truly good according to the way his parents say God wants, Timmy might grow disillusioned. He still wants something spiritual to believe in, but the value system promulgated by a group of people 2000 years ago, and enforced by a modern hierarchy interpreting a book of texts, doesn't seem to work for him. There *is* a value system implicit in paganism, but its one that doesn't assume (in my experience) it is possible to figure out whether there's a Divine Plan or if so, whether humans can understand it.

Sometimes, Timmy just rebels. Sometimes, Timmy is looking for something, and finds it in paganism.

Many mainline churches are experiencing a decline in membership and financial support. Is this the case with pagan religions, too?

On the contrary. There's no financial support per se, and it's a general rule-of-thumb in paganism that if somebody wants to charge you for something (beyond the value of materials), it's a sham. Pagan groups charge nothing for membership, unless they're all putting in something for a buffet.

Membership is growing, although I wouldn't say its exactly a flood. I don't care to speculate on the numbers of pagans in the US, though I've seen figures all over the place. Nobody is recruiting; pagans don't want that kind of member or any attention. But the sheer lack of honest spirituality in our mainstream culture has caused a lot of people to seek out pagan groups. Sure, many folks drop it, but many also stay on.

Hope that helps. If you have other questions, feel free to ask.

[Chanak]

Originally posted by fable
Christianity is a monotheistic religion. The differences between various pagan religions tend to be more like the differences within the polytheistic religions of India, which are usually lumped together as Hinduism (and derive from the French word, Indoo, for the subcontinent). As a result, differences between pagan groups can be considerable in terms of the object and method of worship, though (as was the case with pre-monotheistic religions, historically) they usually recognize their own patterns of worship and belief and one another's forms.

This is rather interesting. I had suspected that a injustice of sorts was being committed...one hears of millions of gods being venerated across India. This differs from what I know of classic Hinduism as a whole...though the concept of the Brahma (sp?) seems to embrace a multitude of expressions. That has always been an attractive element of Hinduism to me.

The most noted is the Dianic group of Wiccans, or witches, who try to hog all publicity and insist (as a sort of anti-Christianity) that God is only female, and that only women can get close to Her. As a rule, though, their groups have been fading in popularity over the last two decades. The major sects tend to be Wiccans (some goddess worshippers, and those who worship a combination of gods and goddesses), Druids (sorry, no Insect Plague spells, here), and various pagan organizations in smaller denominations.

The group of Wiccans you refer to were perhaps the most vociferous; I have heard of several witches who conducted lectures and seminars across the country concerning goddess worship. It seems to me they found a great vehicle of expression in the various New Age movements, the decline of which seems to parallel their own loss of popularity.

Most pagan religions are reconstructions. The people who create and follow them are seeking a spiritual path outside mainstream religions. This is a webpage that gives a good, honest, short background on Wicca, without any of the drivel about links to folkloric figures that occasionally disfigures such things.

Thanks for the link, fable. A good deal of information being offered out there is unfortunately tainted to begin with...

A concern for the environment. This doesn't mean that all pagans are necessarily politically liberal; I've known quite a few who were qute conservative. The high priest of one Wiccan coven whose an old friend of mine favored McCain in the 2000 primaries. But generally speaking, they do tend to be more politically aware, and less into traditional role models. I suppose it comes with the territory, when your religion doesn't match that of hundreds of millions of people around you.

This makes sense, since most polytheistic forms stem from a time when there were less artificially created environments. IMO, it isn't until we contemplate how we should interface with this society that we begin to adopt political stances in the first place. For the longest time, my disgust with the power structure drove me to an apolitical shelter, where I didn't concern myself with rhetoric, issues, or voting in general. I have since woke up and smelled the coffee, for as a thinking being I felt I was being as dishonest as those I took issue with. I think, therefore I am?

Privacy. Most worship in private rituals with friends or by themselves. There are been a number of instances of arson, jobs lost, and physical abuse--even shootings. At the various least, most pagans have some reason to fear social ostracism in communities where they have "come out." Public pagan ceremonies are more in the way of occasions to show everybody else that they don't sacrifice children and bay at the moon.

I am familiar with this. I have seen this happen when I lived in Tennessee. This has been instrumental in forming a general distaste in myself of societal norms. Unlike many, however, I do not believe this is limited to western societies. I have both seen (and read) of this kind of thing happening in other parts of the world. This is a result of basic human nature shared by all members of our species. Though we are equipped with eyes to see and ears to hear, the majority of humanity seems to suffer from a general dulling of these senses.

...On the other hand, most pagans believe that influencing matter through the mind and the will is quite possible; but then, I have seen people light candles in Churches to gain luck, or give money to a Church to "secure a seat in heaven." So maybe the pagans that do this aren't so far away from their monotheistic cousins.

I recall this being a central concept in what limited exposure I have had to Wicca. Rituals and traditions were tools to unlock the potential within. This is quite an advanced and astute insight that attracts me greatly. I read a book about prayer that explored both the positive, and negative, effects that group efforts in exerting the will has had on the terminally ill. I only wish I could remember the title of that book; you would find it excellent reading, as it was written by a physician with a great deal of experience with terminal patients.

but the value system promulgated by a group of people 2000 years ago, and enforced by a modern hierarchy interpreting a book of texts, doesn't seem to work for him. There *is* a value system implicit in paganism, but its one that doesn't assume (in my experience) it is possible to figure out whether there's a Divine Plan or if so, whether humans can understand it.

It is interesting to note that the early Christians were in actuality a number of different groups. Some were Jewish (those from Jerusalem), most were pagan (Greece and Asia Minor). Their conflicts still persist in the Christian writings, there in plain view for anyone to see. Paul was an interesting character; he was originally of the Pharisees, one of the more severe Jewish sects of the day, yet he dined with "gentiles", something strictly forbidden by law. What amuses me to no end is how he then sponsored some Jewish Christians in their Nazarite vows at the Temple. This flies in the face of the modern interpretations and dogma of modern Christianity, which IMO bears little to no resemblance to the various groups found 2000 years ago. The most interesting of them all, however, were the Gnostics.

[Scayde]

Thank you for shareing with us fable..*HUG*
I do have a few questions, fo course if any are too much of a personal nature, I will understand you not answering them...
1. Do you celebrate the Solstice in a purely traditional Pagan fashion, or rather a hybrid of modern Christmas traditions and ancient Pagan ritual.
2. Which Gods if any are you honoring?
3. If you subscribe to the ancient rituals, which ones do you adhere to?
4. Do you celebrate on the true Solstice, or on Dec. 25th as a symbolic gesture to the Solstice.
5. Are there other people in your area with whom you share your belief system, and worship with?
6. Would you characterize your religious practices as "worship" or "spiritual interaction" ?

7. and Lastly, Thank you fable for your willingness to share with the rest of us a glimpse into your experiences...I would love to have been able to attend a service with you, but as that is not possible, this is a very warm and giving thing you offer us........

[fable]

Originally posted by Chanak
The group of Wiccans you refer to were perhaps the most vociferous; I have heard of several witches who conducted lectures and seminars across the country concerning goddess worship. It seems to me they found a great vehicle of expression in the various New Age movements, the decline of which seems to parallel their own loss of popularity.

They're still pretty zealous, as might be expected from any group that possesses a larger agenda. Their main legacy at this time unfortunately seems to be the image in pop culture of Wiccans as female-only groups who combine the austerity and power of AD&D priest cults with Jung's anima. Breaking the idea down is going to take some time, just as women officiating priests and bishops in mainstream Christian churches run into disbelief when not facing outright hostility and opposition.

I am familiar with this. I have seen this happen when I lived in Tennessee. This has been instrumental in forming a general distaste in myself of societal norms. Unlike many, however, I do not believe this is limited to western societies. I have both seen (and read) of this kind of thing happening in other parts of the world. This is a result of basic human nature shared by all members of our species.

It was never my intention to blame any one country for its attitude towards minority religions. Certainly the record of BJP-administered India against Islam and Iran against Ba-hais shows that this kind of behavior is widespread. Individual Buddhist sects have vied viciously, even violently, for control over governments in the past. Tolerance only seems to be shown when the dominant culture is extremely strong, homogenous, and stable.

I recall this being a central concept in what limited exposure I have had to Wicca. Rituals and traditions were tools to unlock the potential within. This is quite an advanced and astute insight that attracts me greatly. I read a book about prayer that explored both the positive, and negative, effects that group efforts in exerting the will has had on the terminally ill. I only wish I could remember the title of that book; you would find it excellent reading, as it was written by a physician with a great deal of experience with terminal patients.

If you recall, please let me know. Interestingly, there seems to be no difference between the forms used by all worshippers to achieve some sort of objective. The Eastern Orthodox Church, for example, has recommended mantras extensively in documents dating as far back as the 9th century AC, though (amusingly enough) they've complained that the Buddhists copied them, and poorly. The power of collective prayer, whether in a Christian Church or a Wiccan circle, is said to be quite powerful. And the paraphenalia involved in any religious ritual--the garb, the purifications, the carefully selected images, the special ritual objects designed to create a sense of separate space/time--are all part of extending enthusiasm and focusing the will.

It is interesting to note that the early Christians were in actuality a number of different groups. Some were Jewish (those from Jerusalem), most were pagan (Greece and Asia Minor). Their conflicts still persist in the Christian writings, there in plain view for anyone to see.

Yet hardly anybody bothers to check: the desire to establish a sense of being separate from all other religions requires orthodoxy, and orthodoxy is then assumed since the beginning of Christianity as a justification for its later practice. The Gnostics whom you mention were considered one of the greatest threats to the Early Christians. The Valentinian Gnostics in particular had formed a kind of Gnostic Christianity that drove Orthodox Christians into a rage, since the latter assumed they held the final, exact message, while the Gnostics were adding new and different values to it.

Ultimately, the Orthodox Christians managed to defeat, banish or kill (mostly defeat and banish, to be honest) all other branches after becoming the recognized official religion of the Roman/Byzantine Empire, but ironically, the influx of different messages upon the perceived "core" religion continued, if only indirectly or for political reasons. Marian ideology was added as an effort to gain the support of cultures that were not just pagan, but had a strong feminine element in their belief systems. The eschatology of two nearly equal good and evil supernatural forces (as opposed to the obvious superiority of the good) comes directly from a major branch of Gnosticism, Manicheanism; Augustine of Hippo was a Manichean priest before he converted to Christianity and became one of its most influential thinkers.

[fable]

Originally posted by Scayde
1. Do you celebrate the Solstice in a purely traditional Pagan fashion, or rather a hybrid of modern Christmas traditions and ancient Pagan ritual.

There's precious little ancient pagan ritual around, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Pre-monotheistic religions in Europe used a form of oral literacy; either that, or (as in the case of Ancient Greece) they kept their rituals unwritten, so as to maintain their sacred "otherness." The Ancient Egyptians, anal-retentive writers, were perhaps the only group that noted down every detail of their rituals, but few pagans make extensive use of 'em. Some do, but none that I know personally.

Pagan ritual, then, is reconstructed ritual. This doesn't make it any less sacred, though it's amusing how defensive some of my co-religionists get, trying to invent or stoutly maintaining that their rituals were handed down "for thousands of years." What does it matter? All that matters is whether it does the job. I think it does.

As such, they include a wide variety of rituals about the Newborn King and the Virgin that has given birth, both ancient pagan traditions. Gift-giving is included, but I suspect that's not a religious tradition as much as it's a cultural one. And very ancient.

2. Which Gods if any are you honoring?

In general, or at Solstice?

3. If you subscribe to the ancient rituals, which ones do you adhere to?

Well, I set up the invocation to the four quarters, retell the story of a particular Newborn King that raises my fervor at the moment, and invoke his blessing, and that of his Mother. There is a sharing of energy, a blessing upon those less fortunate throughout the world, and a sharing of gifts. After the consumption of a sip of consecrated wine and cookie (I don't do wafers; and btw, this isn't a parody of Christian religion, but a very old ritual) on a sacred altar, the wards are dispersed, and the circle broken for that time.

I have no doubt this sounds majorly weird to most people reading it. What can I say? I think Dubyah is fiction. Each to their own.

4. Do you celebrate on the true Solstice, or on Dec. 25th as a symbolic gesture to the Solstice.

As close as possible to the solstice, and allowing (when others are in attendance) for scheduling problems.

5. Are there other people in your area with whom you share your belief system, and worship with?

I've been a pagan for 24 years. During that time, I've moved several times and worked with different groups. I've also been "solitaire," meaning that I worship on my own. I'm currently solitaire.

6. Would you characterize your religious practices as "worship" or "spiritual interaction" ?

Yes. Though I have also done private, non-celebratory rituals designed strictly for spiritual interaction and meditation.

7. and Lastly, Thank you fable for your willingness to share with the rest of us a glimpse into your experiences...I would love to have been able to attend a service with you, but as that is not possible, this is a very warm and giving thing you offer us........

I'm not quite sure what's being asked for, here. Do you mean an experience drawn from a Yule ritual? The words, or the emotions? Or something else?

EDIT: One final note. I hope that nothing I've written is interpreted as a recruitment poster for paganism. I'm not interested in that, or in painting paganism as something all-wonderful and rosy. Pagans are people, in all the nastiness and marvelousness that includes. There are social butterfly types, and power trip types, just as you find in all religions, everywhere. If anyone has misunderstood this from my posts, I apologize.

[Scayde]

Originally Posted by fable
Pagan ritual, then, is reconstructed ritual. This doesn't make it any less sacred, though it's amusing how defensive some of my co-religionists get, trying to invent or stoutly maintaining that their rituals were handed down "for thousands of years." What does it matter? All that matters is whether it does the job. I think it does.

I totally agree. It is not the symbol or the age of the symbol but the meaning it intones to the worshiper which is the source of the sacred it represents.

As such, they include a wide variety of rituals about the Newborn King and the Virgin that has given birth, both ancient pagan traditions. Gift-giving is included, but I suspect that's not a religious tradition as much as it's a cultural one. And very ancient.

I am familiar with the Greco-Roman myths regarding these symbols, but was the mythology also prevelant in Western Earope from a seperate source than the Mediteranean Basin, and if so, Do you know how far back they date?

2. Which Gods if any are you honoring?
In general, or at Solstice?

Both

3. If you subscribe to the ancient rituals, which ones do you adhere to?
Well, I set up the invocation to the four quarters, retell the story of a particular Newborn King that raises my fervor at the moment, and invoke his blessing, and that of his Mother. There is a sharing of energy, a blessing upon those less fortunate throughout the world, and a sharing of gifts. After the consumption of a sip of consecrated wine and cookie (I don't do wafers; and btw, this isn't a parody of Christian religion, but a very old ritual) on a sacred altar, the wards are dispersed, and the circle broken for that time.

Interesting the commonalitites...

I have no doubt this sounds majorly weird to most people reading it. What can I say? I think Dubyah is fiction. Each to their own.

Not at all, it sounds trather like high Mass to me...
re: George W. Bush..You do know I am honor bound to defend the President and a fellow Texan, don't you?
*pelts fable with a snowabll*

I'm not quite sure what's being asked for, here. Do you mean an experience drawn from a Yule ritual? The words, or the emotions? Or something else?

Well since I am standing in relative darkness here, any light you shed will be welcome and edifying.I would love it if you described the Yule ritual, along with the words, if that is allowed, and of course the emotional aspect is what differentiates the experience from the mundane, so any or all of the above would be all too wonderful for a mere
"Thank You"

[Scayde]

EDIT: One final note. I hope that nothing I've written is interpreted as a recruitment poster for paganism. I'm not interested in that, or in painting paganism as something all-wonderful and rosy. Pagans are people, in all the nastiness and marvelousness that includes. There are social butterfly types, and power trip types, just as you find in all religions, everywhere. If anyone has misunderstood this from my posts, I apologize.

Not at all, we asked , you answered, thank you...*HUG*....Please tell us more

[fable]

Originally posted by Scayde
I am familiar with the Greco-Roman myths regarding these symbols, but was the mythology also prevelant in Western Earope from a seperate source than the Mediteranean Basin, and if so, Do you know how far back they date?

I have no idea how far back the Newborn King and his Virgin Mother date, because we move into a period where history was maintained orally rather than through literature. Ethnologists now agree that the oral tradition provided a very accurate means of transcribing knowledge for thousands or possibly tens of thousands of years, and that the people entrusted with this knowledge, aided by mnemonics, were capable of holding the equivalent of dozens of modern books in their mind at a time. (There have been many studies published of modern oral repositories that exist in "backward" cultures among Central American native tribes, African and Oceanic tribes. All confirm this.)

I don't think the Newborn King and Virgin Birth can be found naturally in many other geographical regions. Jung's claims notwithstanding, many such "universal" symbols were linked to the rhythm of daily and seasonal life in a given climatalogical or topographical zone. So the Solar King who is born and dies and acts as the soul of each person (in Christianity, Ancient Egyptian Osirisian beliefs, Orphic religion and Mithraism) is of far less importance in cultures unlinked to the regular tide of agriculture. Doesn't make the symbols any less real or true; it merely means those other cultures bring a different set of equally real and true symbols to the universal table, so to speak. And IMO.

2. Which Gods if any are you honoring?

Depends on whether I'm worshipping by myself, or within a circle with others, as a member of a group. Typically, I mix Mediterranean traditions, and I have no problem including both Jesus and Mary within my private extended pantheon. I think it's safe to say this doesn't hold true for most pagans. I've been pretty successful at separating the worship from the worshippers, probably because my parents were so religiously apathetic when I was growing up. In me, their lip service (and it wasn't much more) to "tolerance" reached up years later and bit 'em in the butt, I guess.

I also enjoy using the Slavic pantheon. I'm still researching it. It resonates with me. I suspect this is largely because of childhood memories of stories and what-not with my Ukrainian grandmother, and later time spent enjoying Russo-Ukrainian classical music and folktales.

Well since I am standing in relative darkness here, any light you shed will be welcome and edifying.I would love it if you described the Yule ritual, along with the words, if that is allowed, and of course the emotional aspect is what differentiates the experience from the mundane...

Tough one. I can't share specific rituals, since I've promised not to do that. In addition, they come off sounding pretty puny outside of their context, because they're meant to serve in a setting abetted by a variety of preparations. Christians used to be able to discuss in commonality the verses of the Agnus Dei or Ave Maria, because the experience surrounding the use of these verses had been standardized within a shared culture for hundreds of years. All the trappings were identical (within expected limitations of poorer or wealthier communities). If I were to write a religious verse used in a pagan ritual, here, anyone would read it without that background. It would simply sound silly.

However, if you're ever up around Philly, I'll be happy to include you in a private worshipping circle, and you can experience it for yourself. Robes would be nice, but they're optional.

[Scayde]

Originally posted by fable
I don't think the Newborn King and Virgin Birth can be found naturally in many other geographical regions. Jung's claims notwithstanding, many such "universal" symbols were linked to the rhythm of daily and seasonal life in a given climatalogical or topographical zone. So the Solar King who is born and dies and acts as the soul of each person (in Christianity, Ancient Egyptian Osirisian beliefs, Orphic religion and Mithraism) is of far less importance in cultures unlinked to the regular tide of agriculture. Doesn't make the symbols any less real or true; it merely means those other cultures bring a different set of equally real and true symbols to the universal table, so to speak. And IMO.

I have not been able to find any Western European Mythologies which corrolate with the Mediterranian versions, other than as you say regarding Jung's theories, so I was currious if you had been more successful.

2. Which Gods if any are you honoring?

Depends on whether I'm worshipping by myself, or within a circle with others, as a member of a group. Typically, I mix Mediterranean traditions, and I have no problem including both Jesus and Mary within my private extended pantheon. I think it's safe to say this doesn't hold true for most pagans.

I find this very refreshing, I have never understood why it seems that to so many it must be an "all or nothing" proposion. You are either a "Pagan" or a "Christian"... I can see the validity in both..

I also enjoy using the Slavic pantheon. I'm still researching it. It resonates with me. I suspect this is largely because of childhood memories of stories and what-not with my Ukrainian grandmother, and later time spent enjoying Russo-Ukrainian classical music and folktales.

This is so cool I became interested in the European theologies when I became interested in my cultural heritage. It somehow made me feel closer to my ancestors to have an understanding of the gods they worshipped or feared.

Well since I am standing in relative darkness here, any light you shed will be welcome and edifying.I would love it if you described the Yule ritual, along with the words, if that is allowed, and of course the emotional aspect is what differentiates the experience from the mundane...

Tough one. I can't share specific rituals, since I've promised not to do that. In addition, they come off sounding pretty puny outside of their context, because they're meant to serve in a setting abetted by a variety of preparations. Christians used to be able to discuss in commonality the verses of the Agnus Dei or Ave Maria, because the experience surrounding the use of these verses had been standardized within a shared culture for hundreds of years. All the trappings were identical (within expected limitations of poorer or wealthier communities). If I were to write a religious verse used in a pagan ritual, here, anyone would read it without that background. It would simply sound silly.

I understand, and am not at all surprised. I did not think you would be able to share the details..but chalk it up to "Might as well ask"

However, if you're ever up around Philly, I'll be happy to include you in a private worshipping circle, and you can experience it for yourself. Robes would be nice, but they're optional.

Oh fable..That is so sweet...*HUG*......You never know...with an invitaion like that I just might show up
Re: the robes...cool... I have always wanted one anyway, but never had a need for it, now I have a perfect excuse to go shopping

[Aqua-chan]

Well, can't say I have a whole lot to say on the subject... I've been a Wiccan since I was born (my mother was a firm believer in it), so I know more than just a few things. But these days, several "denominations" (Druid, Wiccan, Native American, Ancient Egyptian...ect... practicers) are under the "title" of NeoPaganism.

You'd be surprised... I found my best friend by wearing a belt with a Wiccan's pentacle on my belt one day while in a shopping line. She openly pointed it out, and we've been best friend ever since. She practices in a coven of thirty witches, while I just stick solo. Another friend of mine is in the Egyptology wing, and two others I know follow the Native Americans. (Screwy group, ain't we?) Not sure how much I can help with questions, but... *shrugs*...

[Scayde]

Originally posted by Aqua-chan
Well, can't say I have a whole lot to say on the subject... I've been a Wiccan since I was born (my mother was a firm believer in it), so I know more than just a few things. But these days, several "denominations" (Druid, Wiccan, Native American, Ancient Egyptian...ect... practicers) are under the "title" of NeoPaganism.

You'd be surprised... I found my best friend by wearing a belt with a Wiccan's pentacle on my belt one day while in a shopping line. She openly pointed it out, and we've been best friend ever since. She practices in a coven of thirty witches, while I just stick solo. Another friend of mine is in the Egyptology wing, and two others I know follow the Native Americans. (Screwy group, ain't we?) Not sure how much I can help with questions, but... *shrugs*...

AC, that is awesome...I never new you were a Wiccan... It must have been very intersesting growing up in the belief. Every one I have ever known was an adult convert. Did you have any issues with the kids at school? They can be rather mean spirited when you are "different"

[fable]

Originally posted by Aqua-chan
Well, can't say I have a whole lot to say on the subject... I've been a Wiccan since I was born (my mother was a firm believer in it), so I know more than just a few things. But these days, several "denominations" (Druid, Wiccan, Native American, Ancient Egyptian...ect... practicers) are under the "title" of NeoPaganism.

You're a Wiccan, too? Sheesh, I was reluctant to say anything and pin myself down, here--habits of a lifetime, I guess, since pagan sounds a lot less Californian than Wiccan--but if you're going to come right out and admit it, well...Which branch? And leaving aside "birth religions" (which I pay no attention to, since you don't have any choice), when were you initiated into a circle? I've been Gardnerian since 1978. Though I'd like to think I was following the core beliefs long before I became actively and consciously aware of them.

You know, the fact that there are grownups now whose parents were Wiccan really makes me feel young and chipper.

[fable]

Since @Aqua-chan hasn't responded yet to my queries--presumably, because she's bound in a catsuit, as her avatar info states, a ritual which certainly isn't included in my Book of Shadows--I thought I'd have a go at the few questions Scayde posed. Didn't realize they'd been overlooked:

Originally posted by Scayde
I find this very refreshing, I have never understood why it seems that to so many it must be an "all or nothing" proposion. You are either a "Pagan" or a "Christian"... I can see the validity in both..

Well, it is kind of stated in the bible--that whole business about the comandment concerning having "no other gods before me," serving them, bowing down to them, etc. That's for Judaism; but then, Christianity as it is currently accepted includes all of the OT. This is Orthodox Christianity, and it pretty much destroyed non-orthodox variants by the middle of the 4th century AC, thanks to the support and privilege accorded by the Roman Emperor Constantine. Can't say I've seen too many Christian movements that are otherwise inclined, though I've met quite a few individual Christians who are far more open. And that includes some Church leaders, too.

Unfortunately, some of my fellow Wiccans (and pagans, in general) have both the historical example of previous treatment plus their own ostracism from modern society, on their minds when they worship. They can't help but hear the statements of powerful religious figures who aren't exactly ecumenically sensitive. I still recall how, back in the 1970s, the pastor officiating at the head of Dallas' Second Southern Baptist Church (the most powerful in the city) railed repeatedly "New Agers" and reminded his congregation, live, on radio and on television, how witches were not to be "suffered to live" (a mistranslation in the King James version, btw). People like that only harden reactions on both sides, and bring out the worst in everybody, IMO.

This is so cool I became interested in the European theologies when I became interested in my cultural heritage. It somehow made me feel closer to my ancestors to have an understanding of the gods they worshipped or feared.

You're unusually open-minded. Most people don't wan't to think that there were structures, religious or otherwise, that preceded those they believe in, since this lends an air of intangibility to their existence. They fight it. There's a 19th century positivistic spin to religion: first idol worshippers, then Jews, then Christians. Full stop. All others need not apply.

I understand, and am not at all surprised. I did not think you would be able to share the details..but chalk it up to "Might as well ask"

Some pagans are much more public in this regard, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, they tend to be very generic. They're often comprised of people who belong to liberal church organizations and wish to experiment with non-"traditional" forms of worship. More power to 'em, but it's not quite the same as having a different belief system and alternative means of worship.
Oh fable..That is so sweet...*HUG*......You never know...with an invitaion like that I just might show up
Re: the robes...cool... I have always wanted one anyway, but never had a need for it, now I have a perfect excuse to go shopping

Heh. My robes were made for me by one of the members of a circle I led many years ago, with a few more recent changes by my wife (who is a skeptical agnostic, but a damn fine seamstress). I've also belonged to circles where we all worshipped skyclad--that is to say, in the nude--but both work, and robes really heighten the mood of "otherness" for many people. They're also a more convenient place than the human body if you need pockets.

[Scayde]

Well, it is kind of stated in the bible--that whole business about the commandment concerning having "no other gods before me," serving them, bowing down to them, etc.

I think the key part here is just as you quoted "No other gods before me" I have read and re-read the bible in many different translations and have yet to find where it is said There are no other gods. Rather the opposite. It has been my experience in my studies that both the Torah, and the Talmud, as well as the New Testament acknowledge that other gods do in fact exist. As far as not "Bowing down to any other gods before me", I would risk the ire of may staunch believers to say this goes for money, lifestyles, philosophies, or anything which comes between a person and what they profess to believe.

You're unusually open-minded. Most people don't want to think that there were structures, religious or otherwise, that preceded those they believe in, since this lends an air of intangibility to their existence. They fight it. There's a 19th century positivistic spin to religion: first idol worshippers, then Jews, then Christians. Full stop. All others need not apply.

Perhaps it is easier for some to have faith born of darkness. For me, it has always been that the more understanding I have, the more equipped I am to make my choices. My faith has never suffered from my thirst for knowledge. I call myself Christian, because I believe in what Yesua the Christ tried to teach us. It is a beautiful message. "We are all one." And "God is in us." We are "Children of the "Divine." The beauty of his message resonates truth to me. The more I study, the more credence is leant to his teachings, as Truth shows up time and time again in every culture and in many forms, but always with a common thread that speaks to me.

Some pagans are much more public in this regard, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, they tend to be very generic. They're often comprised of people who belong to liberal church organizations and wish to experiment with non-"traditional" forms of worship. More power to 'em, but it's not quite the same as having a different belief system and alternative means of worship.

When I was growing up we had some very dear friends who were Native American. He was a Crow Chieftain, and she was a Wise Woman. I remember them teaching me sand painting. The patterns were very beautiful and intricate, but always there would be a part they left out, and the circle would be left open. It was explained to me that this was the difference in appreciation of an art form, and reverence for the sacred. It is a lesson I have never forgotten.

Heh. My robes were made for me by one of the members of a circle I led many years ago, with a few more recent changes by my wife (who is a skeptical agnostic, but a damn fine seamstress). I've also belonged to circles where we all worshipped skyclad--that is to say, in the nude--but both work, and robes really heighten the mood of "otherness" for many people. They're also a more convenient place than the human body if you need pockets. [/b]

The more I learn of your wife the more certain I am that we would be great friends if ever we had the chance to meet IRL......

[fable]

Originally posted by Scayde
It has been my experience in my studies that both the Torah, and the Talmud, as well as the New Testament acknowledge that other gods do in fact exist. As far as not "Bowing down to any other gods before me", I would risk the ire of may staunch believers to say this goes for money, lifestyles, philosophies, or anything which comes between a person and what they profess to believe.

We used to have some pretty fundamentalist Christians, here. I'd like to see those points discussed, and not necessarily because I find your views a lot more tolerant to my Wiccan butt. Unfortunately, while individual Christians may show signs of humanity, the monotheistic religions in general, according to their holy books, definitely do not.

When I was growing up we had some very dear friends who were Native American. He was a Crow Chieftain, and she was a Wise Woman. I remember them teaching me sand painting. The patterns were very beautiful and intricate, but always there would be a part they left out, and the circle would be left open. It was explained to me that this was the difference in appreciation of an art form, and reverence for the sacred. It is a lesson I have never forgotten.

I'm told this is true of traditional MidEastern carpets, that each is woven with a flaw in respect of unflawed divinity.

The more I learn of your wife the more certain I am that we would be great friends if ever we had the chance to meet IRL......

Heh! Well, her Methodist upbringing has left her with a satirical attitude towards any ritual, and that kind of thing can really take the zing out of your attempts to raise a little energy: atmosphere is important. But I dearly love her, even if she is a mathhead.