Kayless’ Guide to Multi-Classing

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 7:47 am

Originally posted by Kayless
Three classes will indeed give you an exp penalty (unless two of your classes are within one level of each other). I would drop the either the ranger or fighter levels. One or the other works good, but having both will give you a hefty exp penalty. The classic RogXX/Rng1 works best, IMHO.

Always take the rogue first, since they have the most starting skill points. It doesn't matter what order you take the ranger; you won't lose the free ambidexterity/two-weapon fighting. But as I said before, taking both ranger and the fighter levels is just too much (the benefits just aren't worth the exp. penalty you'll receive). Either drop the 4 fighter levels or forget about the single ranger level.

Special Note: I see a lot of people tacking 4 fighter levels onto their characters just so they can get Weapon Specialization. I hate to say it, but Weapon Specialization just isn't that good. It's nice for a tank character, but doesn't abrogate all other concerns. Weapon Specialization is not good for a wizard. Weapon Specialization is not good for any character who isn't going to be a frontline fighter. [/color]

thanks a ton for the input.

weapon specialization provides +2 to hit and a +2 dmg bonus, correct?

if so, that probably isnt worth it, especially not for the loss of spellcasting levels and/or rogue skills.

does every 2 levels of rogue provide another 1d6 sneak attack dmg? if so, it seems like it would be a good idea to load up on rogue levels if you plan to use him as an assassin or mage killer...

with a char primarily a rogue, would it be better to take 4 fighter levels and use the feats from those levels to "buy" ambidex and dual wield, and thus get the weapon specialization also? or is it better to take 1 ranger level and three rogue levels instead?

that is what I am really trying to decide between right now... rngr1/roguex, or roguexx/ftr4

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 2:40 pm

ftr 4 rogue x vs rng 1 rogue x

imo it really does not matter much, the ftr mix will have slightly more hp's and an extra feat or two, plus the benefit of weapon spec. the +2 can add up to a lot if it's a weapon you use a lot of. (small blades or bow pop to mind) w/ feats you get ambi & two wepon fighting feats on your 1st & 2nd ftr levels.

the ranger rogue will have slightly better thief abilities (lv 10+ feats quicker, an extra d6 or two sneak) + 1 favored enemy bonus. and better stealth (in class skill for both)

i lean towards the ftr mix, and tend to pick up even more ftr levels once i hit rogue 10 (for feats)

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 4:57 pm

Which is better:

Barbarian 1/Druid X or Monk 1 / Druid X ?

Been seeing both combos mentioned much lately. Any thoughts on which is superior?

Also, is there a class that compliments the Bard class? Limited to just a single level, obviously. What d'ya'll think?
(Except you, Kayless)

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 8:04 pm

Originally posted by Skooter327
Which is better:

Barbarian 1/Druid X or Monk 1 / Druid X ?

Ive heard great things from the Barbarian/Druid combination...to have barbarian rage and in shapeshifted form is just great...or thats what Ive been told, so thats going to be one of my characters for my second group.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:46 am

Originally posted by Krysalyn
thanks a ton for the input.

That's what I'm here for.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
weapon specialization provides +2 to hit and a +2 dmg bonus, correct?

if so, that probably isnt worth it, especially not for the loss of spellcasting levels and/or rogue skills.

Weapon Specialization just gives +2 to Damage, no bonuses to hit, if I recall correctly.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
does every 2 levels of rogue provide another 1d6 sneak attack dmg? if so, it seems like it would be a good idea to load up on rogue levels if you plan to use him as an assassin or mage killer...

Yep, every two rogue level will give you an extra D6 Sneak Attack damage. Rogues make great support personnel, since they get a sneak attack as long as they’re flanking their target. So by having your tank rush forward and the take the brunt of an attack, your rogue can creep behind the enemies and start sneak attacking.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
with a char primarily a rogue, would it be better to take 4 fighter levels and use the feats from those levels to "buy" ambidex and dual wield, and thus get the weapon specialization also? or is it better to take 1 ranger level and three rogue levels instead?

that is what I am really trying to decide between right now... rngr1/roguex, or roguexx/ftr4

I prefer the rogXX/rng1, since you have a minimum of multi-classing involved. The best combos involve only one or two levels of one class and rest in something else. A rogXX/rng1 will have a 1D6 better sneak attack and more skill points than a rogXX/ftr4. The rogXX/ftr4 will have three bonus feats; only one more feat than the rogue/ranger (since the rogXX/rng1 got Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting for free). While the rogXX/ftr4 has better HP and access to Weapon Specialization, I’ll still prefer the rogXX/rng1 (he's the better rogue, after all).

Originally posted by Skooter327
Which is better:

Barbarian 1/Druid X or Monk 1 / Druid X ?

Been seeing both combos mentioned much lately. Any thoughts on which is superior?

Hmmm, they're both nice (though I usually put 2 barbarian levels in there rather than one, for Uncanny Dodge). A raging bear is fearsome, but the monk abilities are a perfect compliment to the druid...

Originally posted by Skooter327
Also, is there a class that compliments the Bard class? Limited to just a single level, obviously. What d'ya'll think?
(Except you, Kayless)

Yuck, bards.

But since you asked, I'll spare you the rant.

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 5:16 pm

Originally posted by Kayless
Hmmm, they're both nice (though I usually put 2 barbarian levels in there rather than one, for Uncanny Dodge). A raging bear is fearsome, but the monk abilities are a perfect compliment to the druid...

Care to expand on that? 'Specially 'bout the monk levels? 1 or 2 of those? Does the monk's unarmed bonusses apply to shapechanged druids? In either case, should I throw in 4 levels of fighter and a level of ranger 'cause that's just the thing to do?

Originally posted by Kayless
Yuck, bards. But since you asked, I'll spare you the rant.

I thank you for your kindness.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:39 am

the monk wis bonus to ac applies when in shapechanged form, plus you can still use the stunning fist attack. plus you get evasion.

the first level of monk is the most important, i'd leave it at that.

and are you suggesting a ranger level + 4 ftr leves to a monk 1 druid x?

if so it's not a good decision, the ranger & ftr levels will just get in the way, and delay / impeed your shapeshifting possibilities.

and the shapes, won't benefit from dual wield or weapon specilization. and i'm not sure the incresed hit points help either...

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:16 pm

Originally posted by koz-ivan
the first level of monk is the most important, i'd leave it at that.

Thanks for the input.

Originally posted by koz-ivan
and are you suggesting a ranger level + 4 ftr leves to a monk 1 druid x?

Note the sarcasm:

Originally posted by Skooter327
should I throw in 4 levels of fighter and a level of ranger [Sarcasm]'cause that's just the thing to do? [/Sarcasm]

(Sorry for the confusion)

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:34 am

Originally posted by Kayless

Yep, every two rogue level will give you an extra D6 Sneak Attack damage. Rogues make great support personnel, since they get a sneak attack as long as they’re flanking their target. So by having your tank rush forward and the take the brunt of an attack, your rogue can creep behind the enemies and start sneak attacking. [

is the rogue still useful in HoF mode? I am planning to use some members (or all, depending on how effective they are) when starting a HoF game, after completing a normal run through the game... if they are still effective, is it necessary to get very high rogue levels and very high skill levels in order to be so?

Originally posted by Kayless

I prefer the rogXX/rng1, since you have a minimum of multi-classing involved. The best combos involve only one or two levels of one class and rest in something else. A rogXX/rng1 will have a 1D6 better sneak attack and more skill points than a rogXX/ftr4. The rogXX/ftr4 will have three bonus feats; only one more feat than the rogue/ranger (since the rogXX/rng1 got Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting for free). While the rogXX/ftr4 has better HP and access to Weapon Specialization, I’ll still prefer the rogXX/rng1 (he's the better rogue, after all). [

when is the best time to take the rngr level? does taking the ranger level result in some of the rogue-minded skills being more "expensive" to take? The character woudl start as a rogue for the extra initial skill pts, but when should the rngr level be taken?

likewise for the ftr levels if I decided to multiclass as a roguex/ftr4... would taking ftr levels result in some skills "costing" more to take?

same for the half-orc barbx/ftr4 - what should this character start out as? which will give more free feats at game start? and when would be the best time to take the ftr levels?

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:53 am

ah sarcasam, ok... *oops*

-- getting back on track...

best time for the ranger level?

i'd say level 2 or 3,

rogues can't take weapon finesse at level one (non bab bonus) so that's usually my level 3 feat, having the ranger feats already means you can dive straight into combat at that point. (plus depending on your choice of favoured enemy, you can start getting that bonus right away)

most of the rogue skills are in class for rangers, so your stealth / search ect ect can all be rasied easily, you will suffer no long term impact to your thief skills...

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 3:19 am

Originally posted by Skooter327
Care to expand on that? 'Specially 'bout the monk levels? 1 or 2 of those? Does the monk's unarmed bonusses apply to shapechanged druids? In either case, should I throw in 4 levels of fighter and a level of ranger 'cause that's just the thing to do? I thank you for your kindness.

Not much for me to say, since koz-ivan covered it nicely.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
is the rogue still useful in HoF mode? I am planning to use some members (or all, depending on how effective they are) when starting a HoF game, after completing a normal run through the game... if they are still effective, is it necessary to get very high rogue levels and very high skill levels in order to be so?

In my experience rogues work quite well in HoF games. And if you have a multi-class character he should always be primarily one class, with only one or two levels in something else (otherwise you spread yourself too thin. It's better to do one thing great, then two things half-assed). So yes, you want to keep those rogue levels and skills high.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
when is the best time to take the rngr level?

I usually take it as soon as possible (i.e. start as a rogue then multi-class to a ranger after the first level up).

Originally posted by Krysalyn
does taking the ranger level result in some of the rogue-minded skills being more "expensive" to take? The character woudl start as a rogue for the extra initial skill pts, but when should the rngr level be taken?

Taking a ranger level won't make your rogue skills more expensive.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
likewise for the ftr levels if I decided to multiclass as a roguex/ftr4... would taking ftr levels result in some skills "costing" more to take?

The only time your rogue skills will cost more is when your actually taking a level in another class that doesn't have a particular skill as a "class skill". You buy skills when you level up and your current class determines how many skill points you get (modified by Int). Thus when you level up and take a fighter level, naturally rogue specific skills will cost you extra (2 points instead of one). When you multi-class back to a rogue then you can purchase rogue skills as normal (another reason why rangers mesh so well with rogues is because they share a number of class skills, like Move Silently and Hide, enabling you to keep those skills up even when you're not a rogue).

Originally posted by Krysalyn
same for the half-orc barbx/ftr4 - what should this character start out as? which will give more free feats at game start? and when would be the best time to take the ftr levels?

I would start out as a fighter (since you get bonus feats which will help a beginning character out a lot) and multi-class to barbarian after you're done with the four levels.

Jatsu · Post by **Jatsu** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:38 pm

Greetings Kayless,

I have a thread going on about my planned IWD II party, that is petering out, and it was suggested to me that I talk to you about this stuff, since your.. the master

I'm not going to copy anything from that thread, but instead I'll make an original one for you =)

I've got several questions about the different characters and such, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how to start this out, so I'll just jump into the party.. (any advice you have for any of the characters would be greatly appreciated)

Aasimar Paladin of Helm (main frontrunner/tank for diplomacy skill and saving throws, tank, diplomat, mage killer) I was going to keep this character single classed before, but because he is my main tank as well as talker, I'm starting to think that perhaps I should finish him off with fighter levels. My plan is to get that Holy Avenger sword and if I take fighter I will specialize in Great Swords...

Human Monk (Tank, Mage Killer, Scout) I'm going to do some min-maxing with this character so that his str, con, dex, and wis are all 16 or 18 depending on how much I decide to butcher his cha and int...

Aasimar Morninglord of Lathander (Secondary Tank, Healer, and Bombardier) This is my favorite guy right here =)

Human Wizard (Main Bombardier, Summoner, Loremaster, and Alchemist)

Ok now this is where we get to the gray territory

For this next character, my idea was originally a pure Elf Fighter who would specialize in bows and be the sniper/archer of the group. Then I realized that with the high dex he would make a good rogue, especially since I didn't make room for a rogue anywhere else in the party. So then I figured I would do my first 2-3 levels rogue, and then the rest would be Fighter with bow feats and such. Then I realized that there would be a exp penalty, and decided to go with a 50/50 Fighter/Rogue. I even thought about using a pure ranger as an archer/rogue since I am using my monk as a scout and wouldn't need hide or move silently for my rogue character, but I know you wont agree with that

So I dunno, its still up in the air.. I was thinking maybe you might think it would be best to scrap the archer all together, and make a Ranger1/RogueX and dual weild short swords... if this character would better support the tanks in combat than an archer.

Sixth Character
I have speculated MUCH about this character, sometimes not even sure if I would use a Sixth Character, and eventually came up with three options. A Half-Orc BarbarianX/Fighter 4, Aasimar Sorcerer, or Wild Elf Druid. With the original plan of the archer, I was getting into the frame of mind that the Druid would best fit the party since I already have 2 bombardier characters and 3 tanks (including the cleric), and the Druid could do extra Summoning and Healing duty.

I'm hoping you can help me clear all this confusion up =P Perhaps even using that pure elf fighter archer and then making the sixth character a ranger1/rogueX would be cool.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:42 am

Originally posted by Jatsu
Aasimar Paladin of Helm (main frontrunner/tank for diplomacy skill and saving throws, tank, diplomat, mage killer) I was going to keep this character single classed before, but because he is my main tank as well as talker, I'm starting to think that perhaps I should finish him off with fighter levels. My plan is to get that Holy Avenger sword and if I take fighter I will specialize in Great Swords...

This character will work pretty well, as long as you don’t mind the aasimar’s ECL (that will make him level a bit slower than the rest of your party). For a tank paladin I like to go pal3/ftrXX. This gives you all the paladin abilties (except spells) and let's you get a lot of extra feats from the fighter levels. Also, the Holy Avenger is a longsword, so you'll have to spend twice as much on feats to get Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for both longswords and greatswords. Still, a very solid character.

Originally posted by Jatsu
Human Monk (Tank, Mage Killer, Scout) I'm going to do some min-maxing with this character so that his str, con, dex, and wis are all 16 or 18 depending on how much I decide to butcher his cha and int...

No problems here. Your monk may be ugly and stupid, but he'll kick ass (though remember when you're reducing his stats that is Int is more important than Cha, since it helps determine your skill points).

Originally posted by Jatsu
Aasimar Morninglord of Lathander (Secondary Tank, Healer, and Bombardier) This is my favorite guy right here =)

Ahh, nothing like a single-classed spell caster.

Though once again I have to remind you about the aasimar ECL that will make him level slower.

Originally posted by Jatsu
Human Wizard (Main Bombardier, Summoner, Loremaster, and Alchemist)

Nice.

Originally posted by Jatsu
Ok now this is where we get to the gray territory

I knew this was going too smoothly...

Originally posted by Jatsu
For this next character, my idea was originally a pure Elf Fighter who would specialize in bows and be the sniper/archer of the group. Then I realized that with the high dex he would make a good rogue, especially since I didn't make room for a rogue anywhere else in the party. So then I figured I would do my first 2-3 levels rogue, and then the rest would be Fighter with bow feats and such. Then I realized that there would be a exp penalty, and decided to go with a 50/50 Fighter/Rogue. I even thought about using a pure ranger as an archer/rogue since I am using my monk as a scout and wouldn't need hide or move silently for my rogue character, but I know you wont agree with that So I dunno, its still up in the air.. I was thinking maybe you might think it would be best to scrap the archer all together, and make a Ranger1/RogueX and dual weild short swords... if this character would better support the tanks in combat than an archer.

Well I always like to plug the rogXX/rng1 since they're the crown jewel of multi-classing (no other combo is as smooth). The best archers though are fighters. So there's nothing wrong with your original concept of the character. He'll work quite well as a supporting combatant (plus you can pretend he's Legolas from LoTR).

Originally posted by Jatsu
Sixth Character
I have speculated MUCH about this character, sometimes not even sure if I would use a Sixth Character, and eventually came up with three options. A Half-Orc BarbarianX/Fighter 4, Aasimar Sorcerer, or Wild Elf Druid. With the original plan of the archer, I was getting into the frame of mind that the Druid would best fit the party since I already have 2 bombardier characters and 3 tanks (including the cleric), and the Druid could do extra Summoning and Healing duty.

I'm hoping you can help me clear all this confusion up =P Perhaps even using that pure elf fighter archer and then making the sixth character a ranger1/rogueX would be cool.

I see we’re on the same wavelength here.

A rogXX/rng1 would round off your party nicely. So all in all, a very well conceived group you've got here. They should do well.

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:15 am

Just a few thoughts on weapon and spell choice

After playing the first few chapters I think that weapon choice is much more important in 3e than it used to be in 2e.

I know that this is a character development issue and not exactly about multiclassing, but I'll place it in this thread anyway, since party design threads often become linked to this one.

By "weapon choice" I'm referring to damage type (bludgeon, pierce, slash), since resistances to certain damage types really come into play sometimes.

The battle square in Auril's temple is a nice testing ground for character and weapon damage potential and there I found that having access to different damage types is absolutely necessary.

Basically one of my fighters is specialized in hammers (bludgeon), one in great sword and one in axe (both slashing) and two chars mainly use bow/crossbows (piercing).

So every physical damage type is at least covered and there's a sorc in the background who can also fry/freeze/dissolve/blast enemy creatures. Correct, different damage types are of course also relevant for your spell choice, due to their casting flexibility sorcs have a certain advatange over wizards here. One more thing: Double spell focus evocation is a very nice feat if you're spellcaster is determined to be the battle mage type. Those -4 on enemy saves really make a big difference and most good damage spells are evocation, so you're probably better off with specializing in evocation than with specializing in a single element.

But even with all damage types covered by different characters it seems reasonable to give each fighter at least one weapon with a different damage type than his favourite or specialized weapon. Bludgeoning and slashing should always be covered. Since fighters and fighter types are at least proficient in all simple and martial weapons, you'll lose the effects of specialization but this is easilly compensated by ignoring a creature's damage resistance.

In fact my "bludgeoning dwarf" failed a few tests in the battle square until he borrowed the "slashing dwarve's" axe in order to whack a certain bludgeon-resistant creature that kept popping up. From that point he was (compared to his level) pretty invincible.

Conclusion: Use those four quick-weapon slots you've been given to store different weapon types in them.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 9:38 am

phantom lord - my thoughts exactly. quite often a ftr will do more damage w/ the "right" weapon then he would with his/her "best" weapon.

the best way to remain viable in combat is to be able to throw as much different types of damage as possible, for ftr's it's fairly easy to focus & master different weapons, but it's not really needed, my two hander ftr's will often carry a great sword or great axe, a staff, and a polearm, slash / blunt / pierce.

also i can't say enough good things about power attack, if you start running into a damage resistance problem, just amp up the power attack, you will hit less often but the extra 5 damage may be enough to overcome the resistances...
--
same thing w/ sorcs, don't fall in love w/ a damage type (fire for example) and overlook the skulltraps, or ice daggers along the way. sooner or later you will run into something that could well be immune to your chosen element.

barac · Post by **barac** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:14 pm

dualclass magic missiles

I read the entire thread and decided to look up the magic missile spell description and fireball to reveal the difference.

fireball "...1d6 points of fire damage per caster lvl..."

Magic Missile "...For every 2 lvls of exp past 1st, you gain an additional missile...."

So a sor1-mnk8 has 5 missiles, unless there´s an erratum I didn´t see somewhere. Oh, and programmers may have interpreted the spelldescription differently. Very nice vs those nasty image-producing magetype NPCs.

I totally agree on the rgr1/rogXX and bbn2/druXX being very good. Taking the 2 bbn lvls as 3rd and 6th lvl means you can take the extra rage feat twice.

Barac Shaper

"Knowledge is power and my mind my weapon of choice."

two · Post by **two** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 7:19 pm

Best Archer

Gotta respectfully disagree with the statement that the best archer is a fighter.

I'd say Bard, by far, because, well, I'm playing one. Plus, it just makes sense the way the game is set up.

Basically, you just need two feats (rapid shot, precise shot). Both Bard and Fighter can easily manage that. Oh sorry the Bard needs Proficiency-Bow as well, that's 3 feats. Advantage fighter. A human bard could finish this at level 3, however, so it's not really a huge drawback. Precise shot should be taken last, of course (proficiency, rapid shot, then precise, possibly). You can or can't take bow-focus, bow-specialization if you want, the fighter has bunches more feats, so advantage fighter.

Let's look at level 10. Fighter BAB is +10. Bard BAB is not. Advantage fighter.

Both use the same bow+arrow combo. Even.

But Bard casts Cat's Grace, putting his dex +1 or +2 vs. fighter. Lasts all day.

Bard casts Hope, giving +2 to hit, +2 to damage. This alone evens him out BAB wise with the fighter. Lasts 50 rounds. Can cast it 3-4 times a day. Also makes up for lack of weapon specialization-bow. With one spell. Nice.

Then throw in all the defensive spells the bard can cast, and it gets sick.

Plus Bard's can cast Haste, making up for a lost BAB attack with a better bonus (and defensive AC boost too, plus movement!).

As you ramp up, the Bard just gets better while the fighter just gets BAB. When the Bard can cast Improved Haste it's really all over, that's the scariest archer in the game, take your fighter and dump him. You really want to face a level 20 Bard with 3 BAB attacks +1 rapid shot *2 imp. haste = 8 attacks/round with a Level 20 5 attack/round fighter? Nah.

Plus, of course, the Bard can do a million other things well.

Sure, it's only for a few battles a day (or one-two very long battles) but really, how many are you doing per day anyway?

Plus with a Bard's defensive tricks (mirror image, invis) he won't take damage like a fighter will, or fail those will saves as much.

Trust me on this one. If you want a dedicated, pure, nasty, scary, effective archer go 100% bard. You won't regret it.

Now, if you want to make a fighter-archer and have a sorcerer dedicated to buffing him up every day and before every battle, more power to you. I never said a bard was better than a fighter+sorcerer. But then, that's 2 to 1.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:34 pm

Originally posted by two
Gotta respectfully disagree with the statement that the best archer is a fighter.

I'd say Bard, by far, because, well, I'm playing one. Plus, it just makes sense the way the game is set up.

Gotta dispute the bard thing.

The bard’s only advantage comes from spells (as you pointed out), something he does half-assed compared to the wizard or sorcerer. So with the exception of self-only spells (mirror image, etc.) the bard isn't going to have anything on a properly buffed fighter. Plus the bard has to diversify his stat points more than a fighter does, so the fighter is going to have better stats anyway (so spells like Cat's Grace won't be that advantageous).

Originally posted by two
Now, if you want to make a fighter-archer and have a sorcerer dedicated to buffing him up every day and before every battle, more power to you. I never said a bard was better than a fighter+sorcerer. But then, that's 2 to 1.

Unless you're soloing you gotta look at the big picture and see how your rag-tag group of adventurers functions as a unit. This multi-classing guide would be quite different if IWD2 were like NWN and you only had a single character. The bard is a generalist: Jack-of-all-Trades, master of none. He's good for soloing, but sub-par when you've got a finely honed party of specialists each doing what they do best. A Bard can't cast spells as well as a wizard/sorcerer. He can't fight as well as a fighter. Personally I'd rather have a wizard+fighter than a bard+fighter or a wizard+bard.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:41 pm

two's on to something here.

ftrs actually make rather inefficient archers imo. (bards, elf clerics, & rogues are actually quite good at being archers + having other abilities that can add signifigant advantages to a party)

to begin with - point buy. the more standard max str & con, + ability to use heavy armour negates the need for a high dex ftr.

sure you could make a ftr with a high dex but those points need to come from someplace. if you really want to min max it's not that big a deal. but it violates the "spirit of the rules"

the bard only really needs cha, the other points can be spread out.

with that in mind a bard's bab is 75% of a ftrs, but the additional dex bonus will even that out in the long run.

precise shot is a wasted feat. end of story, if it negated the point blank penalty, it would be worth considering.

if you run the numbers the bard's stay fairly close to the ftr's for most of the normal game, it's not until levels 12 + where the ftr gains clear advantage.

--

opertunity cost - you only have 6 slots, to get max value out of each slot you want each char to be able to do as much as possible to help the party.

bards get, more skill points, talkie skills, thief skills, spells, bard songs, ability to use bard items, bard solution to some quests.

bards can self buff. mirror image, blur, and improved invis negate the ftr's advantage w/ hit points.

ftrs get more feats, and more hp.

now the ftr w/ a bow really does not help the party much in conversation, or non combat situations (unless it's a very odd build)

at the end of the day a party gets a lot more milage out of a bard, then they would an archer build ftr.

there are only a few feats to help an archer, wf ws bow, rapid shot. dirty fightng, improved criticals, (max attacks or envenom weapon if you really like once per day feats w/ expensive prereq's and very short durations)

--

it's fairly easy for a bard to get the same feats, and if a bard gets 4 ftr levels it's no longer a contest, the ftr / bard (skald?) reigns supreme.

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:56 am

the problem is one that Kayless pointed out, though. that two is comparing a solo Bard to a solo fighter, and of course the Bard is going to come out on top because he can cast spells on himself.

if you are looking at a party where you have the characters to cast these same spells on your fighter, then the fighter comes out on top. i.e. in a party that has a fighter and a Bard, which one would be the better archer?

it is the fighter, since he starts with a bow feat the Bard doesnt have, and has more "wiggle room" to min/max his stats to become the best archer, whereas the Bard must have pts in Cha.

Fighter:
Str 18 Dex 18 Con 18 Int 6 Wis 10 Cha 6

Bard:
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 10 Cha 18

this is to be able to be a strong Bard spellcaster. you could of course poach pts off of Cha if you wanted to, but then you wouldnt have the most effective Bard. Also, if you want your Bard to be the party spokesman, you will probably want to raise Int so that he can take some of the dialog skills...

iirc, there are some bows that allow you to take some of your Str bonus into acct for dmg, and here the fighter obviously wins out. The fighte will also get more feats than the Bard to become a more effective archer earlier.

The fighter will also have more hit points. and the BAB will advance faster, and the Fighter will get more attacks per round faster as well.

this is looking at it from a party perspective, who would be the best char to have as an archer, only.

yes, the Bard has spells, and since his spells are based on Cha he is also a natural talker for the party... but all of that takes away from him being an archer, imho.

important issues for an archer:
BAB
Dex
attacks/round
dmg
archery-specific feats

ignoring all buffing spells (again, assuming this person is a member of a party and all buffing spells would be available for either character) the fighter is equal to or superior to the Bard on all of the important factors in building the most successful archer, imho.

(also, is weapon specialization in bows possible? if so, the fighter is the only char that can achieve that)