If you are a Good-aligned cleric when receiving the Sir Sarles quest the priest that gives you the quest tells you to spare no expense and not to try to cheat Sir Sarles. Does this mean you can't get the upgrade mace of disruption and still complete the quest to the temple's satisfaction? That seems rather ironic as the upgraded mace is a powerful tool in the hands of a good cleric.
I know how this works for non-cleric characters, but the warning from the priest kind of spooked me. If you do cheat Sir Sarles, does that have any effect on the cleric stronghold? If it does I am inclined to just not talk to Sarles until after doing all of the cleric stronghold quests. Since I am playing a Cleric/Thief dualed at level 3, I think this would be in character.
Good Cleric and Mace of Disruption (Spoilers)
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JackOfClubs
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Good Cleric and Mace of Disruption (Spoilers)
Resistance to Tyrants is Service to God.
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fable
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Aren't you told the same thing regardless of your PC's profession? I played a good cleric once (just for a short while; mage types are my metier), and fooling Sir Sarles didn't appear to hurt his alignment. I suspect this kind of moral ambiguity is not exactly within Bioware's frame of reference. 
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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HighLordDave
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Here's my own interpretation:
Sir Sarles is a conceited snot who doesn't deserve to be hired by any Good temple. He makes no distinction between the various faiths, and he doesn't consider it an honor to serve any of them. He refuses to be employed unless you put him on a pedestal and provide him with the means to glorify himself (instead of your deity). He will work for you only if you can provide him with "the medium of his choice", and that's the only reason he has any interest in working for you at all. If the material he desires were readily available, it wouldn't be so bad, but he knows darn good and well that the quantity he's demanding is completely unreasonable, given its limited availability. If you were to comply with his demands, you couldn't be sure that he wouldn't think of some other reason to get all huffy and refuse to finish the job. He's a pain the rear, and the results wouldn't be worth the trouble, since his heart is in the wrong place.
If you're a Cleric of Lathander, you should follow the orders of your superior, and you shouldn't lie to Sir Sarles. But you shouldn't lose sight of the true goal of the assignment. You're doing it for the glory of Lathander, not for the glory of Sir Sarles. Any person with good sense can see that excessively pandering to Sir Sarles would corrupt the spirit of the project. To push the project in the right direction, you should try to persuade Sir Sarles that he should approach the task with humility and a true heart. He'll tell you to get stuffed, of course, and you should take that as a big hint that the project is bound to be a disaster.
Given that supposition, you should cooperate with Sir Sarles and try to help him in his efforts to glorify himself, but there isn't any need to bend over backwards. As the ore merchant will tell you, Sir Sarles himself can't tell the difference between real illithium and an alloy. So why not offer him the alloy? It might not be the very best you can do, but you did have to go to extraordinary lengths to acquire it, and it's a lot better than anything that anyone else can offer him. Look at the dialogue options carefully. You don't have to lie to him to offer him the substitute for illithium. The ore merchant assured you that it would be an acceptable substitute, and it was the only thing available on the common market. If he throws it back in your face, then he's just being unreasonable.
Go back to your superior and explain how unreasonable Sir Sarles really was. You don't have to lie, and you don't have to be ashamed of what you did. Have faith in Lathander. When your own heart is true, things will turn out for the best.
Sir Sarles is a conceited snot who doesn't deserve to be hired by any Good temple. He makes no distinction between the various faiths, and he doesn't consider it an honor to serve any of them. He refuses to be employed unless you put him on a pedestal and provide him with the means to glorify himself (instead of your deity). He will work for you only if you can provide him with "the medium of his choice", and that's the only reason he has any interest in working for you at all. If the material he desires were readily available, it wouldn't be so bad, but he knows darn good and well that the quantity he's demanding is completely unreasonable, given its limited availability. If you were to comply with his demands, you couldn't be sure that he wouldn't think of some other reason to get all huffy and refuse to finish the job. He's a pain the rear, and the results wouldn't be worth the trouble, since his heart is in the wrong place.
If you're a Cleric of Lathander, you should follow the orders of your superior, and you shouldn't lie to Sir Sarles. But you shouldn't lose sight of the true goal of the assignment. You're doing it for the glory of Lathander, not for the glory of Sir Sarles. Any person with good sense can see that excessively pandering to Sir Sarles would corrupt the spirit of the project. To push the project in the right direction, you should try to persuade Sir Sarles that he should approach the task with humility and a true heart. He'll tell you to get stuffed, of course, and you should take that as a big hint that the project is bound to be a disaster.
Given that supposition, you should cooperate with Sir Sarles and try to help him in his efforts to glorify himself, but there isn't any need to bend over backwards. As the ore merchant will tell you, Sir Sarles himself can't tell the difference between real illithium and an alloy. So why not offer him the alloy? It might not be the very best you can do, but you did have to go to extraordinary lengths to acquire it, and it's a lot better than anything that anyone else can offer him. Look at the dialogue options carefully. You don't have to lie to him to offer him the substitute for illithium. The ore merchant assured you that it would be an acceptable substitute, and it was the only thing available on the common market. If he throws it back in your face, then he's just being unreasonable.
Go back to your superior and explain how unreasonable Sir Sarles really was. You don't have to lie, and you don't have to be ashamed of what you did. Have faith in Lathander. When your own heart is true, things will turn out for the best.
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JackOfClubs
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Non-clerics are approached by the temple of Helm so they would not get the message from the priest of Lathander. I presume clerics of Talos are given specific instructions to lie to Sarles. I doubt any alignment change would occur, I am just worried about sabotaging the cleric stronghold. When you played a good cleric, did you do the stronghold quest?Originally posted by fable
Aren't you told the same thing regardless of your PC's profession? I played a good cleric once (just for a short while; mage types are my metier), and fooling Sir Sarles didn't appear to hurt his alignment. I suspect this kind of moral ambiguity is not exactly within Bioware's frame of reference.
@VonDondu: As usual, we are on the same page with regard to the philosophical issues. However, there are some complications with my character who is a CG Cleric dualed to Thief at level 3. My take on the matter is:
As a young girl Lorelei was groomed for the priesthood, but very early on her willful and independent nature thwarted her commitment to any particular deity. (This probably gave rise to the vicious rumors that she was tainted with the blood of Bhaal -- a rumor that Sarevok, and later Irenicus, evidently took all too seriously.) After leaving Candlekeep she attempted to continue her profession, using her clerical powers to disperse the undead of the fallen priest Bassilus. However after encountering Mulahey, she began to lose heart. Evidently her sheltered life in Candlekeep had not prepared her for two encounters with wicked priests in such a short time. She abandoned her faith and began to practice the ways of the thief, eventually entering the guild at Baldur's Gate. There followed a dark period in which she was unable to practice the skills of her old profession, but somewhere along the line she found that she could still manage a few minor healings and had retained her power over the lesser undead.
Shortly before her abduction by Jon Irenicus (or perhaps coincident with it, her memory is understandably cloudy on this point) she had a vision in which she seemed to see her personality laid out as a series of charts. She seemed to be given a choice between maintaining her old agnosticism or clinging to the god Lathander. She chose the latter and received some minor spiritual blessings, but still could not commit herself to renewing her priestly vows. Shortly after escaping from Irenicus' dungeon, she encountered the proud knight-in-training Anomen, and seems to be falling for him. (One is not quite certain what she sees in him, but perhaps she is atoning vicariously by supporting his priestly advancement which she abandoned in her own life.)
Having witnessed the despicable rantings of the false prophet Gaal, she was accosted by the High Priest of Lathander (whose name and precise title she cannot recall at the moment, but it will come to her). He seemed to be under the impression that she was still a practicing cleric, perhaps because of the manner of her dress or by some more mystical discernment. In the course of her discussion with him, she found herself agreeing to aid in destroying the heretical cult and there was a hint that perhaps a place could be found for her on the staff of the temple. This idea is attractive to her as she really does want to help people and has confined her thieving to the wicked and undeserving (...well, for the most part, anyway). But she is understandably embarassed at admitting to the professional path she has taken and which she is not quite ready to abandon just yet. (In fact she is strongly tempted to try to find out what is hidden in that safe in the East wing of the temple -- just out of curiosity, you understand.)
In her moral confusion, she turned for advice to Dawnbringer Sain and found herself even more deeply compromised. She now has been asked to commission an idol from the technically brilliant but morally ambiguous Sir Sarles. While she would like to honor the god who so recently delivered her from the hands of the evil Irenicus, she is not quite sure this Sarles is the fellow to do it. She feels reasonably sure she could find a way to use that illithium to better purpose, and has a vague suspicion that there is a craftsman in town that will help her do it. However, she is not sure that the rigid priests will see it that way. They often seem not to reason morally as human beings but to be following some sort of Script. She just cannot tell if her actions will be interpreted by that Script to be dishonoring to the deity. She really does not want to bring scandal to the temple and would not willingly jeopardize what may her last chance to serve in an official capacity in her original vocation.
Her current idea is to follow her own instinct and simply delay telling anyone about any problems that arise until she has done all the good that she can. She recognizes that her stay in Athkatla will be limited in any event, and she feels reasnoably certain that her great wisdom (the previously mentioned vision indicated 20 out of a possible 18, whatever that means) will allow her to deal with any complications. However, she would hate to forgo the Experience of providing a new image for the temple and any subsequent quests that might result, if such delay is not really necessary.
Resistance to Tyrants is Service to God.
You've just explained why people (including Clerics) need guidance. Lorelei sounds like someone who distrusts authority figures, rendering her unable to profit from their advice. That's not very smart for a Thief.Originally posted by JackOfClubs
@VonDondu: As usual, we are on the same page with regard to the philosophical issues. However, there are some complications with my character who is a CG Cleric dualed to Thief at level 3. My take on the matter is:
As a young girl Lorelei was groomed for the priesthood, but very early on her willful and independent nature thwarted her commitment to any particular deity...
She was accosted by the High Priest of Lathander... He seemed to be under the impression that she was still a practicing cleric, perhaps because of the manner of her dress or by some more mystical discernment... She really does want to help people and has confined her thieving to the wicked and undeserving...
While she would like to honor the god who so recently delivered her from the hands of the evil Irenicus, she is not quite sure this Sarles is the fellow to do it. She feels reasonably sure she could find a way to use that illithium to better purpose, and has a vague suspicion that there is a craftsman in town that will help her do it. However, she is not sure that the rigid priests will see it that way. They often seem not to reason morally as human beings but to be following some sort of Script. She just cannot tell if her actions will be interpreted by that Script to be dishonoring to the deity...
Her current idea is to follow her own instinct and simply delay telling anyone about any problems that arise until she has done all the good that she can...
Surely she can make a distinction between an act of piety and an act of selfishness. Therefore, she should let her conscience be her guide. If she wants to behave like a Thief, then her choice is clear. If she wants to behave like a Cleric, then her motives must be true.
Lorelei does not seem to understand the tenets of the Morninglord. The Temple of Lathander does not require strict adherence to arbitrary rules; the Temple's goal is to achieve the best outcome for all concerned, based on individual needs. The Temple of Lathander would not have you conform to anything you didn't truly believe in; that would defeat their purpose. (No offense to Helm, but Lathander is quite different from Helm.)
This brings me back to a point I made earlier: Lorelei does not seem to have any faith in the people who would guide her if only she would let them. This is a hindrance to her spiritual growth. The fact that Dawnmaster Kreel (?) could tell that she is a "woman of faith" should be a clue that he can help her realize her potential, and she should jump at the opportunity.
I suggest the following: she should approach the illitihium quest as a personal test. She should be very clear about her motives, make her decisions accordingly, and let the chips fall where they may. Then she should return to the Temple and tell them exactly what she did. Unless she did something completely outrageous such as murdering Sir Sarles, the priests will listen to her story and offer her advice to help her grow from the experience. They might even be able to see her actions in an unexpected light, and Lorelei will see that the result of her actions was even better than she had thought. That's what having faith is all about. You do your best, you learn from it, and with Lathander's blessing, you reap benefits you never even expected. Try it.
The evil side...
Evil clerics are not specifically instructed to lie by the Talons. It's just a snarly demand to obtain Sarles' services by any means. Anyway, using the fake Ilithium, and reporting the results produces essentially the same results as doing the quest for the temple of Helm, though I thought the Talon speech was funnier.
In all fairness to the egotistical Sir Sarles, he DOES have enough skill to recognize the fake, at least
Evil clerics are not specifically instructed to lie by the Talons. It's just a snarly demand to obtain Sarles' services by any means. Anyway, using the fake Ilithium, and reporting the results produces essentially the same results as doing the quest for the temple of Helm, though I thought the Talon speech was funnier.
In all fairness to the egotistical Sir Sarles, he DOES have enough skill to recognize the fake, at least
I have given up all lesser evils as inadequate to my purpose.
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JackOfClubs
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Well I wouldn't expect the Talons to be so upfront as to say "lie" in so many words, but the implication is obviously there.
I am happy to report that Lorelei has seen the light, although the occasion of her illumination has been predictably awkward:
Having ascertained through labyrinthine negotiations the whereabouts of the only cache of illithium in Athkatla, she proceeded to attempt to ascertain the illithium itself. Upon arriving at the proper district, however, she was accosted by a pushy, but evidently well intentioned, officer of the guard. He warned her of a series of gruesome murders and more or less insinuated that she might investigate. Since she was in a good mood after having discovered a source of illithium and since in was on her way, she decided it couldn’t hurt to follow up some of the clues. It proved laughably easy to determine the culprit (really what do they pay these people for?) but apprehending him proved to be another matter entirely.
When she encountered Reijek on the lower level, her party attacked with various missile weapons and spells, but Lorelei used the Ring of the Ram that she had … uh, discovered in the pocket of Tolgeiras while on the way to interview Sir Sarles. When the hidesman was not immediately killed, she assumed he would continue to make his getaway and she would have to pursue him later. On the contrary, he began to attack the party. After several minutes, it became clear that his constant contact with preservatives had made Reijek unkillable. The party beat a hasty retreat but he followed them all the way back to the district entrance. Lorelei attempted to enlist the aid of the guard, but without giving her a chance to explain, he nipped away to “investigate”. [And one wonders why Lorelei is suspicious of authority figures?]
Having reached the safety of the Promenade, Lorelei decided to interpret this as a sign from Lathander and proceeded with her back-up plan involving the illithium alloy with predictable results. However, she was surprised to discover, the priest that gave her the original commission was willing to accept her confession of failure without even necessitating her explanation of apparent divine intervention. (In fact the subject never came up.) Through a combination of shrewd diplomacy and very bad taste in artwork, she managed to squeak through the interview well rewarded and with no obvious negative consequences.
Perhaps this priesthood thing is not as bad as she had feared, after all.
I am happy to report that Lorelei has seen the light, although the occasion of her illumination has been predictably awkward:
Having ascertained through labyrinthine negotiations the whereabouts of the only cache of illithium in Athkatla, she proceeded to attempt to ascertain the illithium itself. Upon arriving at the proper district, however, she was accosted by a pushy, but evidently well intentioned, officer of the guard. He warned her of a series of gruesome murders and more or less insinuated that she might investigate. Since she was in a good mood after having discovered a source of illithium and since in was on her way, she decided it couldn’t hurt to follow up some of the clues. It proved laughably easy to determine the culprit (really what do they pay these people for?) but apprehending him proved to be another matter entirely.
When she encountered Reijek on the lower level, her party attacked with various missile weapons and spells, but Lorelei used the Ring of the Ram that she had … uh, discovered in the pocket of Tolgeiras while on the way to interview Sir Sarles. When the hidesman was not immediately killed, she assumed he would continue to make his getaway and she would have to pursue him later. On the contrary, he began to attack the party. After several minutes, it became clear that his constant contact with preservatives had made Reijek unkillable. The party beat a hasty retreat but he followed them all the way back to the district entrance. Lorelei attempted to enlist the aid of the guard, but without giving her a chance to explain, he nipped away to “investigate”. [And one wonders why Lorelei is suspicious of authority figures?]
Having reached the safety of the Promenade, Lorelei decided to interpret this as a sign from Lathander and proceeded with her back-up plan involving the illithium alloy with predictable results. However, she was surprised to discover, the priest that gave her the original commission was willing to accept her confession of failure without even necessitating her explanation of apparent divine intervention. (In fact the subject never came up.) Through a combination of shrewd diplomacy and very bad taste in artwork, she managed to squeak through the interview well rewarded and with no obvious negative consequences.
Perhaps this priesthood thing is not as bad as she had feared, after all.
Resistance to Tyrants is Service to God.
I think the dialogue says it all.
SPOILER
Dawnbringer Sain: "What is it, <CHARNAME>? You look downtrodden. How goes your quest to please Sir Sarles?"
[MAIN CHARACTER]: "He has left. I tried to appease him with this illithium alloy, but I failed."
Dawnbringer Sain: "I see. You have done all you can; there is no shame in that. We will wait for another artist to accept a commission. Perhaps they can use this alloy..."
Mornmaster Arval: (looking at the chunk of illithium alloy) "Dawnbringer, I see you have the latest in your artistic acquisitions. Another tribute to the Morninglord from a local artisan?"
Dawnbringer Sain: "That was the intent, Mornmaster, but there has been a setback or two."
Mornmaster Arval: "I don't see why. This new piece is a welcome understatement. It looks as though it represents the shadows receeding from the dawn. Fine work." (He examines the chunk more closely.) "It looks a bit like an illithium derivative? Good. Smudge it up occasionally. We need make-work cleaning to keep the penitents busy. Carry on, Dawnbringer."
Dawnbringer Sain: "Y-yes, Mornmaster Arval." (Turning to your character.) "W-well, by the grace of Lathander, all has worked out for the best! You have obviously been touched by the Morninglord."
SPOILER
Dawnbringer Sain: "What is it, <CHARNAME>? You look downtrodden. How goes your quest to please Sir Sarles?"
[MAIN CHARACTER]: "He has left. I tried to appease him with this illithium alloy, but I failed."
Dawnbringer Sain: "I see. You have done all you can; there is no shame in that. We will wait for another artist to accept a commission. Perhaps they can use this alloy..."
Mornmaster Arval: (looking at the chunk of illithium alloy) "Dawnbringer, I see you have the latest in your artistic acquisitions. Another tribute to the Morninglord from a local artisan?"
Dawnbringer Sain: "That was the intent, Mornmaster, but there has been a setback or two."
Mornmaster Arval: "I don't see why. This new piece is a welcome understatement. It looks as though it represents the shadows receeding from the dawn. Fine work." (He examines the chunk more closely.) "It looks a bit like an illithium derivative? Good. Smudge it up occasionally. We need make-work cleaning to keep the penitents busy. Carry on, Dawnbringer."
Dawnbringer Sain: "Y-yes, Mornmaster Arval." (Turning to your character.) "W-well, by the grace of Lathander, all has worked out for the best! You have obviously been touched by the Morninglord."
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serjeLeBlade
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What remains unclear, is if Lorelei has finally managed to find the stolen Illithium...
I mean...
Slight spoiler (highlight):
The Illithium has nothing to do with the Tanner quest... it has been stolen by... someone else!
Ask if interested in more hints...
I mean...
Slight spoiler (highlight):
The Illithium has nothing to do with the Tanner quest... it has been stolen by... someone else!
Ask if interested in more hints...
Where we came from, we don't know
Where we're going.... (even worse)
And about who we could be, we actually have trouble in clearly defining the term "to be" in the first place...
Where we're going.... (even worse)
And about who we could be, we actually have trouble in clearly defining the term "to be" in the first place...
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JackOfClubs
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Sorry if that was unclear: (very minor spoilers)
Lorelei was attempting to find the stolen illithium when she got distracted by the tanner quest. Since the bridge district is now inaccessible, due to the presence at the entrance of the unkillable tanner, she has abandoned the quest for the time being. Nalia has suggested a possible solution involving the Shape Change:Mind Flayer spell, but INSISTED on rescuing her family from an invasion before making the attempt. Lorelei decided to report on her progress before leaving Athkatla, resulting in the conversation I previously reported.
Lorelei was attempting to find the stolen illithium when she got distracted by the tanner quest. Since the bridge district is now inaccessible, due to the presence at the entrance of the unkillable tanner, she has abandoned the quest for the time being. Nalia has suggested a possible solution involving the Shape Change:Mind Flayer spell, but INSISTED on rescuing her family from an invasion before making the attempt. Lorelei decided to report on her progress before leaving Athkatla, resulting in the conversation I previously reported.
Resistance to Tyrants is Service to God.