The drums or war....

[fable]

Originally posted by Weasel
Toned down? I still remember the people in the middle east dancing in the streets as US citizens where killed on 9/11.

The images shown on television are deliberately chosen for their risable effect: we all know this. I don't think watching a dozen people dancing gives a feeling for how any Islamic nation's population truly feels about 9/11. I know that shortly after it happened in a Syrian restaurant where we were eating in Budapest, the Syrian owners were weeping. And one convulsively grabbed my hand, and squeezed it. FWIW, I think my experience probably showed the reaction of the average MidEastern Muslim to that horror. But I do think that when the US/UK invade Iraq, we will fan the flames of that attitude.

[RandomThug]

The reality is there are groups that hate the US, and just like the US does they use propaganda to get people on their side. Its all a giant game of chess and all we can hope for is the least amount of deaths.

I have become very edgy as of late, not especially because of the upcoming war but more along the reasoning of the fact I hate people. People like Saddam will cause the deaths of innocents, people Like Bush will do the same. Everything is based on the values of good and evil, things I neglect to even recongnize as real anymore.

All I know is I dont want my brother to get gassed by some coward sob, and then have the rest of the world turn around and go "oh were sorry you were right"

[AGAPE]

First, I don't think it's appropriate to call President Bush "Dubya" except when you are joking. By associating people with denigrating terms on a serious tone, you are at the same time telling everyone that you are incapable of handling these things in an acceptable, mature manner.

"In the future, the global image and opinion of Americans will only worsen."

Some of you anti war & anti US people are stepping over the line right there. Well, just what would you like to have Bush and the rest of the world do, then? You guys are like, "Bush is so wrong! Blah, blah, blah. Americans are pigs! Blah, blah, blah. It's not morally correct! Blah, blah, blah." Just how much do you know to make those assumptions and claims that you can't back up with guts? Because all your buddies say so? You say those things because nobody ran an airplane into a skyscraper in your own country! Think about what you said from the perspective of an American. Listen to yourself! For one, my poor friend, who lost both her parents on 9/11, would be so angry and frustrated beyond words with your inane remarks, such as: "All this is, is a game of poker on a global scale." Not to her. Not to the innocent people who suffered.

Images on televisions are deliberately chosen? Isn't that obvious? Media does that. Oh, I get it; they should have shown what EVERYONE in the Middle East was up to that moment so the viewers would know there are some people NOT celebrating 9/11! Now that's not biased and morally correct. You must be satisfied. Actually, the fact that there are people CELEBRATING as thousands perish in flames tells you right there: they don't like us very much. As for me, I never saw people partying in the streets in Europe/Asia/Africa, but the TV deliberately chooses to show such and such about everything, so we will never know, right??? So you are saying that this incident at the restraunt reflects the "reaction of the average MidEastern Muslim." Frankly, when it comes to reliability, I would choose CNN over your episode at the Syrian restraunt in Budapest.

Think about how the US worked for the good of the world, even though the US did commit atrocities. But then, who DIDN'T commit atrocities from time to time? You are always complaing about and blaming everyone BUT yourself. What do you have to gain from criticizing every little thing? You want the accusation that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction PROVED. Ah, well, better safe than sorry. You want this perfect. You want that perfect. Blah, blah, blah.

I understand you would like things to be ideal, but that's just not possible. Do you really think Bush is picking up where his dad stopped? I probably don't know as much as you do, or you me, but I don't think it's that simple. The world does not evolve around your witty theories. Just why do you think "the global image and opinion of Americans will only worsen?" Because you think Americans are bunch of idiots? So how come we are the world leader in education, medicine, science, not to mention economy and politics? How come we have the greatest power over global affairs? You better learn to be prudent when someone else stronger than you does something, even though you don't like this and that about it.

I just had to make the point that some of you tend to believe what you hear, interpret the information to your tastes, and share them irresponsibly. You might think, "Oh, I'm in Sweden or whatever, so I'm ok," but who knows if what you say is going to get you later?

I realize that a bunch of things I've said is offensive, and apologize. But then, many of you guys were disrespectful and insulting as well.

Somehow, I get the feeling that you don't want to admit what you already know. You know the war is going to benefit the majority, not just the US. But you are still objecting because of this and that and this and that. I don't think not a lot of people give a damn about morals, virtues, justice, etc. I wonder what the real reason is.

[fable]

Originally posted by AGAPE

I realize that a bunch of things I've said is offensive, and apologize. But then, many of you guys were disrespectful and insulting as well.

If you see something offensive, @Agape, you should report it to the moderators. I haven't seen that, here. I do see that you're flaming others who express a difference of opinion with your views, and I must warn you that this kind of tone won't be tolerated. If you want to discuss issues, feel free to do so. If you want to yell and insult others, find another board. You won't last on this one.

[Scayde]

Originally posted by fable
The images shown on television are deliberately chosen for their risable effect: we all know this. I don't think watching a dozen people dancing gives a feeling for how any Islamic nation's population truly feels about 9/11. I know that shortly after it happened in a Syrian restaurant where we were eating in Budapest, the Syrian owners were weeping. And one convulsively grabbed my hand, and squeezed it. FWIW, I think my experience probably showed the reaction of the average MidEastern Muslim to that horror. But I do think that when the US/UK invade Iraq, we will fan the flames of that attitude.

I understand what you are saying about sensationalism in the press, and I do not argue that it exists. I also realize that you are speaking from first hand experience, however, I have heard other reports that lend credence to what those clips were showing. The hospital where I was working had a large staff of international residents and interns, many from the middle east. It was the position of several, that somehow America had brought this on herself. The stories they shared with me at the time reflected the deep anti-American sentiment of their homes, especially the students from The United Arab Emirates. It saddens me to think how much we are hated, but I cannot disregard the things that were said by people I worked with at the time, who staunchly defended the people who were being depicted in those sound bites. .

[AGAPE]

Fine, bye.
I would like to, however, quote someone:

"If people heard themselves talk, they would talk less."
With due respect, fable sir, and many others, need that.

"Report to a moderator?" I am so silly to waste my time like that. Thanks for your role in precipitating the revelation.

Best,
-AGAPE

[HighLordDave]

@AGAPE:
Once again, you're equating Saddam Hussein with Al-Qaeda, a link which has no credible connection. After the World Trade Center attacks, Dubya went out of his way to say that Iraq wasn't involved so he could prosecute his war in Afghanistan. Now he wants to have it both ways so he can prosecute his war in Iraq.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by AGAPE
Some of you anti war & anti US people are stepping over the line right there. Well, just what would you like to have Bush and the rest of the world do, then? You guys are like, "Bush is so wrong! Blah, blah, blah. Americans are pigs! Blah, blah, blah. It's not morally correct! Blah, blah, blah." Just how much do you know to make those assumptions and claims that you can't back up with guts? Because all your buddies say so? You say those things because nobody ran an airplane into a skyscraper in your own country! Think about what you said from the perspective of an American. Listen to yourself! For one, my poor friend, who lost both her parents on 9/11, would be so angry and frustrated beyond words with your inane remarks, such as: "All this is, is a game of poker on a global scale." Not to her. Not to the innocent people who suffered.

First, I don't see anywhere in my posts that insulted Americans, nor did I voice my opinion of Americans, so many of these comments are unjustified. Also, I have the guts to back my comments up, it's all a matter of whats at stake. As for my buddies, why do I need them to tell me what to do?.

I said what I said for a very good reason. Americans are already, generally, looked down upon by many peoples of the world, hence the fact many Americans, while back packing through places in Europe and Asia, will wear the Canadian flag on their packs. As for the plane, no, Canada has been fortunate in the fact that we have not been the target of a major terrorist attack, but because of our location, it affects us just as much as it affects you guys to the south. It may not have made the same blow, patriotically, as it did to Americans, but it hurts us in much the same manner in other aspects.

Also, whats wrong with telling it like it is. Politics, in a sense, is nothing more than a game of poker. It is true, and their is much proof to back that comment up in the guise of how politics work, and how world leaders will jockey around, often bluffing their way through, if they know they got no choice (Canadian politics are summed up big time there).

Think about how the US worked for the good of the world, even though the US did commit atrocities. But then, who DIDN'T commit atrocities from time to time? You are always complaing about and blaming everyone BUT yourself. What do you have to gain from criticizing every little thing? You want the accusation that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction PROVED. Ah, well, better safe than sorry. You want this perfect. You want that perfect. Blah, blah, blah.

Next. Look back in many threads in which I have discussed politics. I blame Canada, just as much as I'll blame any other country. Also, it's not a matter of who hasn't committed atrocities, it is a matter of the scale. It has gotten to a point in the world theatre that an atrocity means very little, unless it is major. The way I see it, Saddam wasn't attacking anyone, and appeared as if having no intentions of doing so, so why is it such a big deal if we actually give him the benefit of the doubt, and allow the search to continue, so we know for sure. Thats not demanding perfection, it's demanding justice. Going into a country because of a hunch (which is what the weapons thing is) is not jusitce, however you slice it.

As for the US doing good, well, can you explain the paltry amount the US contributed towards the clean up of Afganistan? Of the estimated $4.5 billion clean up tag, the Americans contributed less then $1 billion, yet they caused the majority of the destruction.

I understand you would like things to be ideal, but that's just not possible. Do you really think Bush is picking up where his dad stopped? I probably don't know as much as you do, or you me, but I don't think it's that simple. The world does not evolve around your witty theories. Just why do you think "the global image and opinion of Americans will only worsen?" Because you think Americans are bunch of idiots? So how come we are the world leader in education, medicine, science, not to mention economy and politics? How come we have the greatest power over global affairs? You better learn to be prudent when someone else stronger than you does something, even though you don't like this and that about it.

I'm curious to see where it was that I alled the Americans a bunch of idiots, and yes, I do believe that Bush is picking up Daddy's war, why else would he inadvertantly switch attention from the search for Bin Ladin to Iraq so swiftly, without making any substantial claims. This war, in all reality, has little to do with the Iraqi threat, but more to do with getting an oil pipeline through Iraq, which is something they've been trying to do since they put Saddam into power. It's a shame that Saddam thought of his country, instead of the Americans in that case.

Also, the advances the Americans have made are not in question, so that point is not very important, and why it was brought up, I'm unsure.

Somehow, I get the feeling that you don't want to admit what you already know. You know the war is going to benefit the majority, not just the US. But you are still objecting because of this and that and this and that. I don't think not a lot of people give a damn about morals, virtues, justice, etc. I wonder what the real reason is.

What would this be? I'm pretty sure I've made my stance pretty clear. Do I think people in general are morale? No. I, instead, believe that the common individual is morale.

I just had to make the point that some of you tend to believe what you hear, interpret the information to your tastes, and share them irresponsibly. You might think, "Oh, I'm in Sweden or whatever, so I'm ok," but who knows if what you say is going to get you later?

Anything I say, I will stand by until proven with hard facts otherwise. How's that for conviction.

Lastly, in the future, don't make posts that are so blatently an attack on someone. I, and many others are quite lenient in that regardes, but everyone has a limit to what is acceptable. You're dangerously close to mine with that one.

edit: I made this post during the time in which Fable commented, thus did not see his warning post. I'm not editing out any comments, merely stating that if I did go encroch on your jurisdiction, sorry.

[Scayde]

edit:....Bad timing here I see, but I want to let AGAPE know that not everyone on this board agrees with one another on the issues. I, for instance am a hard-line fiscal conservative, socially liberal, Bush supporter, who happens to have an issue with this particular military intervention. I think that most of us do agree on one thing though. No matter how much you might disagree with a person's position, you can still maintain a mutually respectful relationship, and even, as in some cases very rewarding friendships.

[fable]

Originally posted by Scayde
I understand what you are saying about sensationalism in the press, and I do not argue that it exists. I also realize that you are speaking from first hand experience, however, I have heard other reports that lend credence to what those clips were showing. The hospital where I was working had a large staff of international residents and interns, many from the middle east. It was the position of several, that somehow America had brought this on herself.

I don't doubt you're right about this being the opinion of quite a few people, @Scayde. But that's a long way from the truly disgusting sight of people jumping up and down, dancing over 9/11. The first is a sort of resigned, "It was going to happen sooner or later, given your actions." The second is just, well, revolting: a kind of horrific glee that ignores the pain and suffering caused, losing itself entirely in a futile gesture aimed at attacking American political/economic dominance.

It's noteworthy that the UK and France have not suffered from terrorist attacks on this scale, but then, the US is seen (rightly so) as Israel's main supporter, a nation that insists Israel has done no wrong. The Sharon government has only made this worse. Bush Sr had Sharon's true stature in view, when he deliberately kept the then-fuming Defense Minister cooling his heels outside Bush's office when Sharon had come to read Bush the riot act. Dubya isn't anywhere near the same league, IMO. He has agreed to everything Sharon has done, even to the death of non-combatant Palestinians in army raids. This can only foster the attitude that the US is not to be trusted, and doesn't have the interests non-Israeli governments in the MidEast at heart.

Does this forgive terrorist attacks on the US? Not a chance. There is no excuse for such activities. But it does explain that sense of helplessness which many MidEastern Arabs feel. I strongly suspect that if several of the so-called "republics" of the MidEast were run as such, much of that frustration would be channeled into changing social policies and economic development that would lessen the tension. But that's unfortunately not the case.

[HighLordDave]

Originally posted by Scayde
The hospital where I was working had a large staff of international residents and interns, many from the middle east. It was the position of several, that somehow America had brought this on herself.

There are two issues here, and it is a fine line which divides them.

First of all, who was to blame? There is no doubt that it is the terrorists. Pure and simple. People going to work don't "bring upon themselves" a bombing.

Second, what is the root cause of the attack? This is where we as a nation have to ask ourselves if there is anything by way of foreign policy, military action or cultural misunderstanding that may have caused hard feelings in others. Then we must ask ourselves if we are prepared to deal with the consequences of those choices our governmental representatives have made.

What has the United States done that would make someone hate us so dearly that they would hijack a plane and ram it into a skyscraper, sending themselves and potentially tens of thousands of people to their deaths? Is there anything we could have done to lessen or remove that hatred?

Sometimes, there is no reasoning with people, especially if they believe they have been charged by God to do His will, all earthly consequences be damned. We see this in Christian extremists (notably anti-abortion fanatics), not just Muslims.

So why do people hate us? Is it because they are jealous of the things we have? Is it because we do not worship their god? Is it because we can project our will anywhere in the world with impunity and they can't?

There will be no satisfying everyone, but it seems to me that Dubya is meeting hate with hate, fear with fear and aggression with aggression. Will invading Iraq make America safer or more dangerous? I don't believe the world will be a safer place after Saddam Hussein is gone because he never was a threat to us to begin with. But how many people will hate us after we occupy Baghdad who didn't hate us today, and how many people will be spurned into action because of this war?

[fable]

Originally posted by AGAPE
"Report to a moderator?" I am so silly to waste my time like that. Thanks for your role in precipitating the revelation.

Evidently it's an epiphany you've yet to experience, despite its regular success, here. I strongly suggest you read the rules. We follow them, and enforce them. If you find that too much to believe, keep ignoring them.

[Scayde]

fable, I am sure those pictures were the most extreme, as if showing clips of a KKK rally were indicative of the average US citizen. But never the less, I can not imagine a scene like that playing out in the streets of my home town if this were to have happened to another country. I can not think of anyone we hate that much.

[AGAPE]

Dear fable sir,
I wouldn't have to read the rules because I'm out of here. Please arrange to have my account erased. I feel bad because I made so many people angry. I'm just a high school senior who doesn' t know crap about anything.

Again, apologies to everyone. This SYM thing was never for me and I need to study for five AP exams. Obviously you guys are on a different level of intelligence. Sorry I made stupid comments. I know I'm retarded. Bye.

[Scayde]

Originally posted by HighLordDave

So why do people hate us? Is it because they are jealous of the things we have? Is it because we do not worship their god? Is it because we can project our will anywhere in the world with impunity and they can't?

I am quite sure it is a mixture, and summation of all of the above, and probably a bit more, don't you think? The question behind the question I believe is this. To what lengths should the US fashion its foreign policy to meet the demands and expectations of the world court. At what point does a sense of National identity give way to the global community. In this world, isolationism is no longer practical, but how much of the sense of Nationalism should be preserved, and how much forfeited to preserve peace. At a very gut level, I am an isolationist, but I realize this is an impractical option. I do not have the answers to my own questions.

[fable]

Originally posted by Scayde
fable, I am sure those pictures were the most extreme, as if showing clips of a KKK rally were indicative of the average US citizen. But never the less, I can not imagine a scene like that playing out in the streets of my home town if this were to have happened to another country. I can not think of anyone we hate that much.

@Scayde, there are sections of the US where hatred still seethes beneath the surface--that's not the norm, but it's there. The general reasons are a complete lack of control over one's destiny: deadend jobs, drug dealers, a lack of schooling, no social net for health care, a culture that's ostracized, the vision on television of so much wealth, elsewhere, etc. Fewer pockets like this exist today than 30 or 40 years ago, but they are still around. There are even "no go" zones in some of the largest cities where whites simply don't venture, and where the police don't patrol. These areas of the metropolis have simply been given up. They're third world nations, and their inhabitants envy and loathe us.

Many MidEastern nations have a very high rate of unemployment and a very large lower class. These people live in hopelessness, usually with large families, no facilities we take for granted, no doctors, no possibility of escape. The only relief comes from schools/hospitals provided by extreme religious groups. This is how these groups remain so popular among the lower classes--because they provide the basic, necessary services that the so-called "democratic" governments of the area completely ignore. Under the circumstances, considering that the only source of help comes from these groups, many people accept their ideas along with the food, the medicines.

IMO, that's the reason for the hate. Remove all possibility for people to escape from hell, and show them images that look like some kind of materialistic heaven; then feed them propaganda. It's a potent combination.

[Scayde]

I certainly see the logic in what you are saying, and I do remember the riots in LA only a few short years ago. I have had personal experiences in the so-called no go zones you mention, and they are desperate indeed. I am not trying to argue here, but fable, can you honestly imagine a scene like that being played out anywhere in this country, in regards to another nation's misfortune?

[InfiniteNature]

I am a American, and I for one do not feel all that safe in this country anymore, this war makes me feel even less safe because I believe it will do precisely what the CIA and FBI and everybody else are saying it will do, make there be more terrorists.

In 9/11 I did not feel glee or anything like that, as a person who has traveled around the world, I frankly was rather surprised something like it had not happened sooner, so when it happened it was like well it was going to happen sooner or later.

As a American I am also afraid of this war, because of the possible effects this war will have on my freedom, with more terrorist attacks happening in my country, what will be the predictable response, losing more freedoms then we have already with that despicable Patriot I act and now the Patriot II act, I certainly hope that it all turns out hunky dory with there being a wonderful democracy and peace will rain, but from the evidence I have seen the war in Iraq will ignite the powderkeg that has always been the Middle East. So its like 9/11 all over again, gee I was frankly surprised it did not happen sooner, now with a kind of depressed detachment I find myself thinking about the next terrorist attack, frankly it would not surprise me if next time it will be a nuclear weapon detonating in one of our cities and there will be much anger and rage, which will allow more of my rights to be taken away, which will then lead to predictable revenge attacks around the world against any nation that disagrees against the U.S., I mean whos next, how long before we attack our allies, how long before a coalition of nations is formed to put down the rabid dog that the US had become, before the world is brung to the brink of nuclear catastrophe, it bothers me because being quite young I might live to see it.

I love my country, it disheartens me that such immoral people have taken over the government, that madmen rule our government, people who care little for humanitarian iniatives, care little for the consequences which come from their actions, caring not at all for who they run over in their shortsighted grab for power. How long before this particular man destroys the very elective process which this country is governed by, if he is elected out of office in 2004, will he leave or just to spite everyone else press that deadly red button.

To me at least the US is in control of a powerhungry madman, one who will stop at nothing to get what he wants, irregardless of world opinion or the lives he destroys along the way, irregardless of the opinions of the people who protest the war, we have elected(or not elected depending on which sources you believe), a stupid Nixon, someone who isolates all dissent, surrounds himself with yes men, and thinks he is always right, worse he thinks God is on his side, a moral hypocrite who believes he will go to heaven by destroying the evil Satan, I swear there is less and less I see to distinguish Bush and his cohorts from the very people we are supposed to be fighting.

Damn I'm depressed, I went to two protests in Washington D.C., 24 hours in a cramped bus over there, enduring freezing snow, and I am a Floridian, so it was really really cold for me, but I endured it just because I thought my opinion, my show of peaceful resistance to the war would actually change something, I should have known I can't change the mind of a finactic, maybe I'll just throw in the towel, I swear I ain't felt this depressed since the coup of a election in Florida.

Oh well I'm going to go play some ICWII for now, all evil, never played it, go on a mad killing spree, might make me feel better.Anyway peace all.

[fable]

Originally posted by Scayde
I certainly see the logic in what you are saying, and I do remember the riots in LA only a few short years ago. I have had personal experiences in the so-called no go zones you mention, and they are desperate indeed. I am not trying to argue here, but fable, can you honestly imagine a scene like that being played out anywhere in this country, in regards to another nation's misfortune?

I remember reading that when a munitions depot exploded in the North during the American Civil War, killing many soldiers, many religious congregations in the South sang hymns of rejoicing, and their religious leaders proclaimed it "a sign of heaven's wrath." I suspect the reason why we haven't seen this kind of monstrous reaction since on American soil is that we're isolated from the world and (to an extent) its hatreds, and because the nation has more of what it needs or wants than anyplace else on earth.

But do you remember when the filmed sequence during the LA riots, when a couple of while truckdrivers were pulled screaming from a vehicle, and had their limbs broken by a cheering crowd? That's not far off. It reproduces in miniature the kind of reaction, wrongly or rightly, that third world occupants may feel to a huge malignant power (in their perception) out to keep them down, and dominate their world.

[Scayde]

Yes, I remember that scene. It was horrific.

For me, the example you site of the civil war is not a parallel situation because:

#1, the South was at War with the North, and
#2, It has always been the custom during times of war for a people to give praise to their god for delivering an enemy into their hands.

It is just this, Those pictures did not reflect the abject hatred and violence of a mass riot, such as Watts, or Detroit, or the most recent in LA. What they showed was a celebration, not of a victory of war, but rejoicing at the pain of another, for that pain's sake. It was as if we were at war, and they were celebrating the defeat of a hated enemy. No matter what the sentiment is on our foreign policy, we were not at war with anyone in the Middle East.