can a good barty side with bodhi?
can a good barty side with bodhi?
without suffering sever reputation loss, alignment issues, etc
SPOILERS
Only Keldorn and Mazzy will leave your party if you side with Bodhi. None of the other Good characters will leave, not even Aerie (who is Lawful Good) or Minsc (whose racial enemy is vampires). Look at it this way. Keldorn is old and wise, and Mazzy is very sure of herself, so they are capable of making up their own minds, and their loyalty to you depends upon your actions. They would never have anything to do with evil creatures or anyone who would deal with such creatures. Their senses tell them that Bodhi is evil to the core. Aerie, on the other hand, is inexperienced and overtrusting. She puts blind faith in your character. Bodhi frightens her, but Aerie doesn't understand the nature of Bodhi's evil, and she trusts your judgment. So does Minsc, because he is convinced that you are a hero (unless you really go too far). Aerie and Minsc will even help you kill Valygar for the Cowled Wizards because they trust you! That is blind faith (or just plain naivete). As Minsc says when you join Bodhi, "Such an offer from this woman sends chills up and down my spine like angry weasels... but you will know what to do. Even Boo is confident of this."
The other Good NPCs actually put up less fuss about joining Bodhi than the Neutral NPCs do. Yoshimo is afraid to cross the Shadow Thieves, and Jaheira worries about getting involved in the guild war, which could endanger your lives. Jan pees in his pants.
As for the Evil NPCs, Edwin is impatient because Bodhi makes you wait on her and meet her in a graveyard at night, while Korgan likes the offer she made (which will save you 5,000 gold pieces) and he wants to take it before "this fickle woman" changes her mind. Most of the NPCs don't appear to distrust Bodhi's motives, which seems odd to me (I wouldn't trust her); they apparently believe that she will deliver what she promises.
As for whether it is ethically permissable for a Good party to side with Bodhi, I have repeatedly made the case that it is better for a Good party to side with her than it is to side with the Shadow Thieves. I respect anyone who disagrees with me, but that is my opinion on the issue, and no one has convinced me otherwise. Do a search for my posts if you're interested (that's what I would have to do to find them). If you can't find them, let me know, and I'll look them up for you.
Only Keldorn and Mazzy will leave your party if you side with Bodhi. None of the other Good characters will leave, not even Aerie (who is Lawful Good) or Minsc (whose racial enemy is vampires). Look at it this way. Keldorn is old and wise, and Mazzy is very sure of herself, so they are capable of making up their own minds, and their loyalty to you depends upon your actions. They would never have anything to do with evil creatures or anyone who would deal with such creatures. Their senses tell them that Bodhi is evil to the core. Aerie, on the other hand, is inexperienced and overtrusting. She puts blind faith in your character. Bodhi frightens her, but Aerie doesn't understand the nature of Bodhi's evil, and she trusts your judgment. So does Minsc, because he is convinced that you are a hero (unless you really go too far). Aerie and Minsc will even help you kill Valygar for the Cowled Wizards because they trust you! That is blind faith (or just plain naivete). As Minsc says when you join Bodhi, "Such an offer from this woman sends chills up and down my spine like angry weasels... but you will know what to do. Even Boo is confident of this."
The other Good NPCs actually put up less fuss about joining Bodhi than the Neutral NPCs do. Yoshimo is afraid to cross the Shadow Thieves, and Jaheira worries about getting involved in the guild war, which could endanger your lives. Jan pees in his pants.
As for the Evil NPCs, Edwin is impatient because Bodhi makes you wait on her and meet her in a graveyard at night, while Korgan likes the offer she made (which will save you 5,000 gold pieces) and he wants to take it before "this fickle woman" changes her mind. Most of the NPCs don't appear to distrust Bodhi's motives, which seems odd to me (I wouldn't trust her); they apparently believe that she will deliver what she promises.As for whether it is ethically permissable for a Good party to side with Bodhi, I have repeatedly made the case that it is better for a Good party to side with her than it is to side with the Shadow Thieves. I respect anyone who disagrees with me, but that is my opinion on the issue, and no one has convinced me otherwise. Do a search for my posts if you're interested (that's what I would have to do to find them). If you can't find them, let me know, and I'll look them up for you.
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Baldursgate Fan
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A good question. When I am playing a good party, I will never side with a vamp. I don't know why, maybe at a personal level, having anything to do with vamps sickens me to the core. One can say the same thing about thieves for that matter, my take on that would be, "Better the devil you know, than the one you don't." Admittedly, I played evil only once, and that is because I wanted to know for myself how awesome Valen was.
My two cents.
My two cents.
I agree with Vondondu. I would like to point out that you eventually fight Bodhi in Chapter 6 regardless of whom you choose to side with. Well, if you really want to be "good," you should side with Bodhi to get rid of the Shadow Thieves - then, in Chapter 6, you will clean out Bodhi as well. By doing so, you are eliminating both evils.
It's a wash, IMAO
I don't think it makes a big difference. There are no rep or alignment issues at all. I went with the Vampires first time through, mostly Shadow Thieves since.
The biggest difference I recall is that you get the Mace of Disruption earlier if you side with Bodhi. I think the fights against the Shadow Thieves are also a little more interesting, but there are no huge differences.
I don't think it makes a big difference. There are no rep or alignment issues at all. I went with the Vampires first time through, mostly Shadow Thieves since.
The biggest difference I recall is that you get the Mace of Disruption earlier if you side with Bodhi. I think the fights against the Shadow Thieves are also a little more interesting, but there are no huge differences.
I have given up all lesser evils as inadequate to my purpose.
Re: It's a wash, IMAO
By the way, if you want to prevent Keldorn and Mazzy from leaving your party for siding with Bodhi, just dismiss them before you talk to Bodhi and let them rejoin your party right afterwards. It's cheesy, but it works. As an alternative, you can let Keldorn spend some time with his family while you do Bodhi's dirty work, and you can let Mazzy visit her sister. When you're finished working for Bodhi and ready to go to Spellhold, you can let them rejoin your party. I don't think they should rejoin you, but they will.
I agree with Nightmare and AGAPE: siding with Bodhi lets you destroy the Shadow Thieves AND Bodhi, which is the best scenario of all. I've used that argument before.
I've also used another argument, which goes like this. People are afraid to walk the streets of Athkatla because of the Shadow Thieves. As you can see in the Shadow Thief headquarters and Maevar's Guild, the Shadow Thieves make their living by stealing, smuggling, blackmailing, bribery, assassination, and torture. If you're a Thief and you take over Maevar's Guild, slavetrading is also a possibility. As Isaea Roenall and some of the town guards and some of the city hall clerks prove, there is widespread corruption in Athkatla. It undoubtedly owes some of its origin to the climate created by the Shadow Thieves. It puts a stranglehold on decent people who want good government and those who want to serve the people. Working for the Shadow Thieves is bad enough, but actively ensuring their survival is a step too far. Bodhi's guild is the first serious threat the Shadow Thieves have ever faced. Aran Linvail wants you to wipe them out so that the Shadow Thieves can continue stealing, smuggling, blackmailing, bribing, assassinating, torturing, slavetrading, and terrorizing the entire population of Athkatla without being disturbed. Is that supposed to be the "good" path? I don't think so.
If you side with Bodhi, you have the opportunity to destroy the largest criminal organization in Amn. That's a Good thing. I don't think it's right to hunt down and kill every Shadow Thief (I always go out of my way to avoid killing Mook and Gaelen--I charm them and pick their pockets), but I think it's a Good thing to kill their leaders and destroy their organization. That way, they can no longer do so much harm, and they can no longer strangle the decent people of Amn. In the long run, it will be a lot easier to weed out the rest of the corruption in Athkatla. Again, that's a Good thing. The whole world will be a better place.
If someone like Imoen wants to run a small-time Thief Guild (and you know she will still try her best to be a decent person), that's fine with me. I simply cannot find any justification for aiding and perpetuating the Shadow Thieves' reign of terror. It's much better to put them out of business.
Dealing with an evil creature such as Bodhi is an ethical compromise. I don't think a Lawful Good character could justify it. But then, I don't see how a Lawful Good character could rationalize working for the Shadow Thieves, either. What's a Paladin supposed to do, storm the walls of Spellhold by himself? Unfortunately, that's not an option, so you have to make a tough choice. If you side with Bodhi, you don't have to trust her, and you can plot her demise when the time is right. Working for her is a means to an end, and you can serve a higher purpose even as you serve her purposes. Some people might call that a self-serving argument, but I think a Neutral Good or Chaotic Good character would find that acceptable.
Of course, if you're selfish, Neutral, or Evil, just think of the benefits.
That's not entirely true. "Reputation" does play a small part. The main plot requires you to fight Bodhi in Chapter Six. Some players like to ask Drizzt and/or the Order of the Radiant Heart for help. If you sided with Bodhi in the guild war, then you need to be careful what you say if you want their help. They'll say, "But we've heard that you worked for Bodhi and killed the Shadow Thieves. Why should we help someone like you?" If you make an arrogant reply such as, "The Shadow Thieves had it coming to them," the Order of the Radiant Heart won't help you. But if you act humble and say, "I was not aware of Bodhi's true nature and I made a mistake," then they will help you.Originally posted by nephtu
I don't think it makes a big difference. There are no rep or alignment issues at all...
By the way, if you want to prevent Keldorn and Mazzy from leaving your party for siding with Bodhi, just dismiss them before you talk to Bodhi and let them rejoin your party right afterwards. It's cheesy, but it works. As an alternative, you can let Keldorn spend some time with his family while you do Bodhi's dirty work, and you can let Mazzy visit her sister. When you're finished working for Bodhi and ready to go to Spellhold, you can let them rejoin your party. I don't think they should rejoin you, but they will.
I agree with Nightmare and AGAPE: siding with Bodhi lets you destroy the Shadow Thieves AND Bodhi, which is the best scenario of all. I've used that argument before.
I've also used another argument, which goes like this. People are afraid to walk the streets of Athkatla because of the Shadow Thieves. As you can see in the Shadow Thief headquarters and Maevar's Guild, the Shadow Thieves make their living by stealing, smuggling, blackmailing, bribery, assassination, and torture. If you're a Thief and you take over Maevar's Guild, slavetrading is also a possibility. As Isaea Roenall and some of the town guards and some of the city hall clerks prove, there is widespread corruption in Athkatla. It undoubtedly owes some of its origin to the climate created by the Shadow Thieves. It puts a stranglehold on decent people who want good government and those who want to serve the people. Working for the Shadow Thieves is bad enough, but actively ensuring their survival is a step too far. Bodhi's guild is the first serious threat the Shadow Thieves have ever faced. Aran Linvail wants you to wipe them out so that the Shadow Thieves can continue stealing, smuggling, blackmailing, bribing, assassinating, torturing, slavetrading, and terrorizing the entire population of Athkatla without being disturbed. Is that supposed to be the "good" path? I don't think so.
If you side with Bodhi, you have the opportunity to destroy the largest criminal organization in Amn. That's a Good thing. I don't think it's right to hunt down and kill every Shadow Thief (I always go out of my way to avoid killing Mook and Gaelen--I charm them and pick their pockets), but I think it's a Good thing to kill their leaders and destroy their organization. That way, they can no longer do so much harm, and they can no longer strangle the decent people of Amn. In the long run, it will be a lot easier to weed out the rest of the corruption in Athkatla. Again, that's a Good thing. The whole world will be a better place.
If someone like Imoen wants to run a small-time Thief Guild (and you know she will still try her best to be a decent person), that's fine with me. I simply cannot find any justification for aiding and perpetuating the Shadow Thieves' reign of terror. It's much better to put them out of business.
Dealing with an evil creature such as Bodhi is an ethical compromise. I don't think a Lawful Good character could justify it. But then, I don't see how a Lawful Good character could rationalize working for the Shadow Thieves, either. What's a Paladin supposed to do, storm the walls of Spellhold by himself? Unfortunately, that's not an option, so you have to make a tough choice. If you side with Bodhi, you don't have to trust her, and you can plot her demise when the time is right. Working for her is a means to an end, and you can serve a higher purpose even as you serve her purposes. Some people might call that a self-serving argument, but I think a Neutral Good or Chaotic Good character would find that acceptable.
Of course, if you're selfish, Neutral, or Evil, just think of the benefits.
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fable
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If you side with Bodhi, you have the opportunity to destroy the largest criminal organization in Amn. That's a Good thing. I don't think it's right to hunt down and kill every Shadow Thief (I always go out of my way to avoid killing Mook and Gaelen--I charm them and pick their pockets), but I think it's a Good thing to kill their leaders and destroy their organization. That way, they can no longer do so much harm, and they can no longer strangle the decent people of Amn. In the long run, it will be a lot easier to weed out the rest of the corruption in Athkatla. Again, that's a Good thing. The whole world will be a better place.
Reminds me of Kurosawa's great film, Yojimbo (which was remade poorly as Fistful of Dollars): the lone samurai who comes to a town decimated by two powerful, rival gangs. He decides to play them against one another, and destroy them in sequence.
I would have liked to see a bit more help provided by Bodhi in your battle with the Shadow Thieves--a vampire or two in aid, perhaps?--but that would probably have been out of character. Bodhi's personality is the kind that derives pleasure from teasing as it mutilates; and I strongly suspect she knows you will succeed, but rather have you do it in as damaged a way as possible.
Reminds me of Kurosawa's great film, Yojimbo (which was remade poorly as Fistful of Dollars): the lone samurai who comes to a town decimated by two powerful, rival gangs. He decides to play them against one another, and destroy them in sequence.
I would have liked to see a bit more help provided by Bodhi in your battle with the Shadow Thieves--a vampire or two in aid, perhaps?--but that would probably have been out of character. Bodhi's personality is the kind that derives pleasure from teasing as it mutilates; and I strongly suspect she knows you will succeed, but rather have you do it in as damaged a way as possible.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
@ VonDondu, I respect your viewpoint, but humbly disagree, to suggest that working with a vampire for a good character is beyond reproach, particuarly if your character is an Undead Hunter, for example, it just simply doesn't go, and any good character would recognise the evil within Bodhi, as Minsc, Keldorn, Mazzy and any good NPC would, and not stand for it. Granted, I agree that the Shadow Thieves are not the most polite and nice company available, but firstly the character knows them, secondly, he knows where s/he stands, and thirdly, the Shadow Thieves are more honourable with their dealings, and their tasks are no way near as evil as anything else. The Cowled Wizard, is admittedly not a good example, but that character is still evil...
Perverteer Paladin
Nippy, I respect your opinion, but let me ask you this. All other things being equal, if Aran Linvail were a demon or a dragon, would a Paladin be willing to kill him?
On a serious note, how do you judge whether someone like him should live or die?
I agree that working for an evil creature, especially one of pure evil, poses a terrible dilemma to any Good character. I felt that way about working for my last employer. But I still say that if you compare the tasks that Bodhi assigns you side by side with the tasks that Aran Linvail assigns you and look at them on their own merits as well as at their long-term consequences, working for Bodhi is the lesser of two evils. (see SPOILERS below) And besides, the Shadow Thieves are NOT your friends. They won't lift a finger to help you, even though your cause is just, unless you cover yourself in blood. You think you know where you stand with them? Then you should know you're just a tool to them.
As for the reactions of the Good NPCs, consider what Minsc says when Bodhi asks you to kill Aran Linvail: "We will go into the midst of the den of thieves and flip them about like pancakes. All that is glory shall be ours! And then breakfast."
SPOILERS
The Shadow Thieves ask you to protect a shipment, kill members of the guild who are defecting, and destroy an entire rival guild so that the Shadow Thieves can continue to steal, assassinate, bribe, blackmail, torture, and trade slaves without being disturbed. Bodhi asks you to steal a shipment, rescue a prisoner (if you don't want to murder a less-than-innocent man in cold blood), and kill the leader of the largest criminal organization in Amn and rescue another prisoner in the process) to make it fall, thus making Athkatla safe for decent people. (Reminds me of what the Joker said about Gotham City: "Decent people shouldn't live here. They'd be happier someplace else.")
On a serious note, how do you judge whether someone like him should live or die?
I agree that working for an evil creature, especially one of pure evil, poses a terrible dilemma to any Good character. I felt that way about working for my last employer.
But I still say that if you compare the tasks that Bodhi assigns you side by side with the tasks that Aran Linvail assigns you and look at them on their own merits as well as at their long-term consequences, working for Bodhi is the lesser of two evils. (see SPOILERS below) And besides, the Shadow Thieves are NOT your friends. They won't lift a finger to help you, even though your cause is just, unless you cover yourself in blood. You think you know where you stand with them? Then you should know you're just a tool to them.As for the reactions of the Good NPCs, consider what Minsc says when Bodhi asks you to kill Aran Linvail: "We will go into the midst of the den of thieves and flip them about like pancakes. All that is glory shall be ours! And then breakfast."
SPOILERS
The Shadow Thieves ask you to protect a shipment, kill members of the guild who are defecting, and destroy an entire rival guild so that the Shadow Thieves can continue to steal, assassinate, bribe, blackmail, torture, and trade slaves without being disturbed. Bodhi asks you to steal a shipment, rescue a prisoner (if you don't want to murder a less-than-innocent man in cold blood), and kill the leader of the largest criminal organization in Amn and rescue another prisoner in the process) to make it fall, thus making Athkatla safe for decent people. (Reminds me of what the Joker said about Gotham City: "Decent people shouldn't live here. They'd be happier someplace else.")