We are at War

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 5:51 pm

Latest estimates for the rebuilding of Iraq, after the war: between 70-80 billion dollars. This is a larger sum than all the rich nations currently provide in support to all the poor nations in any given year.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 6:55 pm

The destruction of the infrastructure of Iraq by Hussein's military forces is indeed a travesty that carries grim consequences to the Iraqi people. Once again, Hussein proves that he never cared for the people of Iraq to begin with.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 6:59 pm

Originally posted by Chanak
The destruction of the infrastructure of Iraq by Hussein's military forces is indeed a travesty that carries grim consequences to the Iraqi people. Once again, Hussein proves that he never cared for the people of Iraq to begin with.

I don't know if the first naturally proves the second. For one thing, Hussein, as repressive as any MidEastern despot, nonetheless used the funds from the OPEC oil boom in the late 70s and 80s to build up Iraq's terrible infrastructure, health and educational system--more so than any other leader in the area. Before the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq had the best economic prospects and GNP of any MidEastern nation (with the obvious exception of Israel).

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 10:04 pm

Well non military casualties are already mounting up for the coalition forces. Three ITN crew are missing presumed dead after coming under friendly fire for their proximity to a convoy of Iraqi vehicles. And an Australian cameraman has died after taxi exploded next to him in what is believed to of been a suicide attack in northern Iraq. Another Australian journalist suffered shrapnel wounds in the event.

Quote from BBC

Mr Campbell told ABC television that Moran "was getting one last shot of some peshmergas [Kurdish militia] who were running towards the base, and he walked about 50 metres in front of me to get this shot, and a taxi just screamed up beside him and exploded and we were thrown back, and Paul was dead".

Mr Moran is survived by his wife and baby daughter.

The area had been in a state of confusion as Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) forces attempted to take control of an Ansar al-Islam camp.

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 12:47 pm

Men just saw the video's on the news of the US PoW's...
Really unnerving, so much fear in their eyes, and knowing that somewhere there are parents watching it. Can't get over it. And what I really don't understand is that Bush is sitting in his hot tub in Camp David, instead of consoling the families of those missing....

Hope this war will be over soon.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:51 am

I find this sickening...

t...it doesn't help any for the Iraqis if they used deceit just to get a few American soldiers.

Reports came that some American casualties were due to dirty tactics by Iraqis waving white flags in apparent gesture of surrender. Others would wear civilian clothes, smile and wave peace signs only to fire when within range.

Now, the REAL civilians are now more in danger than ever.

What's so honorable in pretending to surrender then firing at the enemy once they are conveniently sitting ducks?

Treachery.

Simply disgusting.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:01 am

Re: I find this sickening...

Originally posted by Maharlika
Reports came that some American casualties were due to dirty tactics by Iraqis waving white flags in apparent gesture of surrender. Others would wear civilian clothes, smile and wave peace signs only to fire when within range.

I knew this would happen, I figure it won't be long before we have some suicide bombers and alike.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:04 am

Mar its war. Is it fair that you bomb hospitals on the suspicion that there maybe weapons are there? Morality means nothing when it is war. You am to win. You protect your country by hook or by crook. It is ultimatley survival of the fittest.

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:05 am

Re: I find this sickening...

Originally posted by Maharlika
t...it doesn't help any for the Iraqis if they used deceit just to get a few American soldiers.

Reports came that some American casualties were due to dirty tactics by Iraqis waving white flags in apparent gesture of surrender. Others would wear civilian clothes, smile and wave peace signs only to fire when within range.

Now, the REAL civilians are now more in danger than ever.

What's so honorable in pretending to surrender then firing at the enemy once they are conveniently sitting ducks?

Treachery.

Simply disgusting.

The question of course is if.
Just curious, do you have a somewhat independant source for theese "reports". If this is true then it is most disturbing...

Any thoughts why Iraq chose to show POWS on TV. Did they gain anything by this?!? All I could understand is that it will probably rally more support for the "coalition"....

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:14 am

Originally posted by CM
Mar its war. Is it fair that you bomb hospitals on the suspicion that there maybe weapons are there? Morality means nothing when it is war. You am to win. You protect your country by hook or by crook. It is ultimatley survival of the fittest.

Still I think both sides are trying their best to live up to the Geneveconvention's "laws of Wars" (1948). Maybe not because they want to, but more or less because "public opinion" forces them to do so.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:18 am

Thought of that myself Fas...

Originally posted by CM
Mar its war. Is it fair that you bomb hospitals on the suspicion that there maybe weapons are there? Morality means nothing when it is war. You am to win. You protect your country by hook or by crook. It is ultimatley survival of the fittest.

...what really sickened me is that with these kinds of tactics, there is now the greater chance for more civilian casualties.

I don't know about the bombing of hospitals but I do hate the idea of using civilians and civilian places like hospitals as shields.

Karembeu made a good point here, btw.

Are the media reliable sources? This has also become a war of info where lies and truth are hurled from both sides and you wouldn't know which is which--- at least for most of those who are far from the war, in the safety of their homes.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:19 am

Karembeu what about the US showing "Iraqis" surrendering earlier? If Iraq violated the Geneva convention, so did the US. This is all hypocritical BS. What did Iraq get out of this? That is simple. It slapped the US in the face. A war that was to last a couple of days, could easily turn into a blood bath where Americans will be coming home in body bags. Right or not. Good or bad. This is war.

Are you asking my personal opinion about media i trust? Well i watch TV 5 - french channel. Arte - European channel etc. I watch the european networks for all the damage the US bombing campaign has done in Iraq which CNN does not cover. I watch Al Jazeera, but my arabic is utterly pathetic now. If you want to see Al Jazeera on the net i have the address.

I also have clips of the US POW, the "disgusting" tape and that of the grounded Apache. I dont have the tv here so i dont get to se all this stuff. If anybody wants links to such stuff i can most likely get it from somewhere.

Mar tactics are tactics. If you use civilains, so be it. It is war. If a person feels they need to protect their homeland, they are willing to do anything. This isnt war of the 1500, where Honor and morality were concepts.

Now anything goes, including carpet bombing housing areas etc. You cant tell when you drop a bomb if you are gonna miss or hit a school bus.

If you see any resistance to the American forces. Its not because the people support Saddam. Its because the people want to stick it to the US Army.

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:29 am

@CM: Sure I saw the U.S showing POWS on TV as well. Hypocricy, yes. But you have to admit that there was a huge difference in the way they "broadcasted". The Geneva convention states that no POW should be "humiliated". I just think that the way the "americans" were being "poked" and "shoved" to speak in front of the camera was worse then showing Iraqis surrendering and handing over a piece of paper...just my opinion...

Der-draigen · Post by **Der-draigen** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:32 am

Re: I find this sickening...

Originally posted by Maharlika
tReports came that some American casualties were due to dirty tactics by Iraqis waving white flags in apparent gesture of surrender. Others would wear civilian clothes, smile and wave peace signs only to fire when within range.

That's the way terrorists fight a war. Cowards.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:40 am

Originally posted by Karembeu
@CM: Sure I saw the U.S showing POWS on TV as well. Hypocricy, yes. But you have to admit that there was a huge difference in the "broadcasting". The Geneva convention states that no POW should be "humiliated". I just think that the way the "americans" were being "poked" to speak in front of the camera was worse then showing Iraqis surrendering and handing over a piece of paper...just my opinion...

More Humilating? Definitely. It was and it was done specifically for one reason. A slap in the face of the US army. There is a difference, i agree but when you start greying the edges of any document then the rules can be bent. At a certain point those rules break.

Plus i do believe the Iraqis have said that they will not treat the US soliders as POW. Rather as merceneries. That gives them a different set of rules according to the Geneva Convention. It is now for lawyers to argue on who is right.

War is a dirty business i dont understand why people expect the Iraqis to put up a moral fight?

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:41 am

Both sides are breaking the Geneva convention regarding PoW:s. (And what about the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay? The US critisism of Iraqi TV breaking the Geneva convention is extremly hypocritical.)

The Arab world view the broadcasts of Iraqi PoW:s shown lying on the ground being searched as equally humiliating as the Western world view the American PoW:s being questioned. I don't think there is an obvious difference between the two situations.

The Red Cross gives a less biased report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2881187.stm

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:46 am

Originally posted by CM
Plus i do believe the Iraqis have said that they will not treat the US soliders as POW. Rather as merceneries. That gives them a different set of rules according to the Geneva Convention. It is now for lawyers to argue on who is right.

The prisoners in Guantanamo Bay are not entitled to the PoW status either. There are people there who still do not know what they are accused of.

from BBC
For more than a year now, the American Government has been criticised for the way it has treated hundreds of prisoners from the fighting in Afghanistan, says the BBC's diplomatic correspondent Barnaby Mason.

It has denied that those held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba have the rights of PoWs - instead Donald Rumsfeld came up with the description "unlawful combatants".

Pictures of some of them hooded and kneeling have been shown on television.

Two wrongs don't make a right, I am in no way defending violations of the Geneva convention at either side - I just think the US criticism is very hypocritical.

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:52 am

Originally posted by C Elegans
Both sides are breaking the Geneva convention regarding PoW:s. (And what about the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay? The US critisism of Iraqi TV breaking the Geneva convention is extremly hypocritical.)

The Arab world view the broadcasts of Iraqi PoW:s shown lying on the ground being searched as equally humiliating as the Western world view the American PoW:s being questioned. I don't think there is an obvious difference between the two situations.

You're right about Guantanamo Bay, they've behaved like small kids arguing in a sandbox and making up new rules to suit their games.

Hypocritical, yes....but that's not what I'm after.
Why do they chose to show POWS on TV?!? Doesn't it just hurt their cause (with public opinion and what else), and make their enemies even more determined?!?

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:10 am

Since when did Rumsfeld start to care about international treaties? Bah, the man is disgusting. Been in politics so long that he lacks any sense of morality.

@Karembeu, they say the war in Vietnam was lost in the livingroom. Saddam is probably trying to do the same.

There is no morality in war. That's why they should've tried harder to avoid it. If I sound crancky, I didn't sleep very well. Too many images going through my mind.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:18 am

War shows the worst and the best of men.

My grandfather fought WWII, and told me stories... You don't need to hear them from your grandfather,
but still... I mean, in war scenarios, people may act without Law watching.
So you can see what people really are.
There are men who live normally in time of peace, who suddenly become able to sexually abuse of helpless,
"enemy" girls. There are some who find out that they enjoy the killing. They can do it "legally",
so you see them laughing and firing.
But there are also men who prove to be brave, and human, more than they thought themselves.
What I mean is: no punishment, no reward. The true souls of men show up.

Hm, I'm losing the point of this post.
I think I was really sickened by the showing of the dead marines.
I know it's propaganda, I know people are enraged and need to find courage and strenght...
But that sickened me.
Wasn't propaganda used to prove the "goodness" of one side?
Hope it all will be over soon.